18 replies to this topic

[Trakel]

Having read some of the threads in regards to the changes revolved around items regenerating, I feel personally that the change was a bad move.

I liked the intensity of a fight, knowing that all of my equipment was blown and that the only thing going to keep me alive from that point forward is how well I can pilot the mech I'm using. I feel like that the only place regenerating items would have reason for being there would be in the deathmatch mode, even then I disagree with it. As I pointed out in another thread, solely for realism, the mechs were piloting aren't mobile factories, they're rather small actually.

What I did suggest though was placing in some modes (I had seige and missle in mind, maybe team deathmatch) placing a station either in each home base where people have the option to go and rearm their mech with the consumables they're provided with on spawn.

An even more elaborate idea, and I like this one better, would be placing an armory type node that is contested in Missle and Seige modes, adding another factor into playing. Whoever controls the armory also has the ability to rearm their mech - making it an attractive thing to have in modes like Missle and Seige. The map I currently have in mind is Origin, where in Seige the AA is on the top bridge, both energy gathering stations being on the sides, with both bases being on either end.

Place the armory station in the middle of the lowest part of the map, between both energy stations under the AA. I think that would be an interesting addition anyway.

Thoughts_

Edited by Trakel, November 20 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[YellerBill]

Ooh I like this one. Good idea.

[h0B0]

sadly i am still downloading 3rd beta patch but i have to agree regenerating items do not fit this game. OP has made great suggestions on how to implement "regenerating" items, i support this thread.

[KaszaWspraju]

@Trakel

I quoted you here.

[SilentCid]

Trakel, on November 20 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Having read some of the threads in regards to the changes revolved around items regenerating, I feel personally that the change was a bad move.

I liked the intensity of a fight, knowing that all of my equipment was blown and that the only thing going to keep me alive from that point forward is how well I can pilot the mech I'm using. I feel like that the only place regenerating items would have reason for being there would be in the deathmatch mode, even then I disagree with it. As I pointed out in another thread, solely for realism, the mechs were piloting aren't mobile factories, they're rather small actually.

If we are talking about realism factor then we should have a finite amount of ammo in our weapons. How many tow missiles can you fit in that arm on the assault_ Wouldn't you call that a mobile factory as well_

[Trakel]

SilentCid, on November 20 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Trakel, on November 20 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Having read some of the threads in regards to the changes revolved around items regenerating, I feel personally that the change was a bad move.

I liked the intensity of a fight, knowing that all of my equipment was blown and that the only thing going to keep me alive from that point forward is how well I can pilot the mech I'm using. I feel like that the only place regenerating items would have reason for being there would be in the deathmatch mode, even then I disagree with it. As I pointed out in another thread, solely for realism, the mechs were piloting aren't mobile factories, they're rather small actually.

If we are talking about realism factor then we should have a finite amount of ammo in our weapons. How many tow missiles can you fit in that arm on the assault_ Wouldn't you call that a mobile factory as well_

I'm all for reloading weapons in addition to overheating. The problem you run into here is that you need a way of picking up ammo that makes sense, or doesn't... depending on what you want to produce.

[Necro]

This idea is great, a refilling station could be added to either every map that only one team can have or each team gets on in a optimal location location, however i still think there should be a timer on being able to refill your supplies.

[Nitris]

I like the idea of one in each team's base. Having one on the middle ground would just mean whoever got there first and dropped enough turrets down would lock it down, and then when an AA fight comes up (as an example) they just redeploy there until the end, and poof, back to locking down the resupply point.

[Ollie]

Please, consider this or some variation of this.  The cognitive disconnect on this one is pretty difficult to deal with. :/

[Beemann]

If we're going to make map-based item recouping I'd rather it be several zones split between the two slots (so we have Offensive and Support slot drops spread around)
Also EMP needs to go in offensive, seriously

[ReBuilt]

Nitris, on November 20 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

I like the idea of one in each team's base. Having one on the middle ground would just mean whoever got there first and dropped enough turrets down would lock it down, and then when an AA fight comes up (as an example) they just redeploy there until the end, and poof, back to locking down the resupply point.

i agree, don't make it easy for a team or skilled individual to camp.
its way more fun to see teamwork around the map, or a rouge mech takin names.

[Beemann]

ReBuilt, on November 20 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Nitris, on November 20 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

I like the idea of one in each team's base. Having one on the middle ground would just mean whoever got there first and dropped enough turrets down would lock it down, and then when an AA fight comes up (as an example) they just redeploy there until the end, and poof, back to locking down the resupply point.

i agree, don't make it easy for a team or skilled individual to camp.
its way more fun to see teamwork around the map, or a rouge mech takin names.

Promotes too much inactivity IMO, would work out better to force a large amount of map control by spreading out spots where you regain items.

[Titzilla]

It would be fine with me if weapons were given a balanced amount of ammo each, possibly enough to take out 2 or 3 mechs before they finally run out. Scattered around the maps would reload points for more ammo, but only specific areas on opposite sides of the map would be able to reload items.

This way, it maintains a more realistic aspect where ammo cartridges can be found at resupply points and for someone to restock on items, they would have to move all the way to one far side of the map. Putting an item resupply in the center would only make the momentum shift even further in the favor of whoever is controlling it. Being able to constantly regenerate offensive items (and emp) would make it even more difficult for the team in the losing position to make a comeback.

[Trakel]

Titzilla, on November 20 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

It would be fine with me if weapons were given a balanced amount of ammo each, possibly enough to take out 2 or 3 mechs before they finally run out. Scattered around the maps would reload points for more ammo, but only specific areas on opposite sides of the map would be able to reload items.

This way, it maintains a more realistic aspect where ammo cartridges can be found at resupply points and for someone to restock on items, they would have to move all the way to one far side of the map. Putting an item resupply in the center would only make the momentum shift even further in the favor of whoever is controlling it. Being able to constantly regenerate offensive items (and emp) would make it even more difficult for the team in the losing position to make a comeback.

You'd need more ammo than this, you have to account for accuracy. Easy to miss in this game.

[Ruzhyo]

Why was this changed_ It made sense before and didn't feel especially unbalanced. The uniqueness of the utility items made you consider more strongly when to deploy them, whereas now if you aren't dropping them on cooldown you're probably doing it wrong. Refreshing items took some skill out of the game, and the above strategies for fixing that issue are far more complicated than simply reverting the change.

Not to say that some of these ideas aren't really good. I think that resupply points on maps could make for some good ground to fight over, and refreshing your items and ammo would be an excellent excuse to implement them. However you'd have to be careful changing the game to have ammo... With heat, fuel, energy, items, and health, there are a lot of resources to look after already. Perhaps very high ammo capacities, or only ammo capacities on secondary weapons like rockets_

Hrm...

[Beemann]

Ruzhyo, on November 20 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Why was this changed_ It made sense before and didn't feel especially unbalanced.

It would have been at higher end play. The way it was before was a good snowballing countermeasure, but with even teams it would have just been spammy and annoying. Matches could easily boil down to "who misses their item spam more often" given how powerful some of those items are

[Trakel]

Beemann, on November 20 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

Ruzhyo, on November 20 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Why was this changed_ It made sense before and didn't feel especially unbalanced.

It would have been at higher end play. The way it was before was a good snowballing countermeasure, but with even teams it would have just been spammy and annoying. Matches could easily boil down to "who misses their item spam more often" given how powerful some of those items are

A good example of the "missing spam" part would be the grenades, or H.E. Charges. All it took was one rocket hit, a grenade hit, and some bullets and the target was dead. But therein lies the problem with regenerating items, this is still possible.

However, as far as spam goes that was only if you were focused entirely on killing, not just surviving since once you used your items they were gone. I, for instance, only used my items when I knew I would need them like when I engadged a mech in front of me and another one showed up behind me.

But generally I feel like nothing was really wrong with the way it was before. I'd like to consider myself a pretty good player at the game, and I never just spammed my items. The only people I really saw spamming items were the people with the most deaths, and even now it's still possible to do that as dying resets all of your cooldowns.

It really just boils down to how people play, I think.

[Beemann]

Trakel, on November 20 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Beemann, on November 20 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

Ruzhyo, on November 20 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Why was this changed_ It made sense before and didn't feel especially unbalanced.

It would have been at higher end play. The way it was before was a good snowballing countermeasure, but with even teams it would have just been spammy and annoying. Matches could easily boil down to "who misses their item spam more often" given how powerful some of those items are

A good example of the "missing spam" part would be the grenades, or H.E. Charges. All it took was one rocket hit, a grenade hit, and some bullets and the target was dead. But therein lies the problem with regenerating items, this is still possible.

However, as far as spam goes that was only if you were focused entirely on killing, not just surviving since once you used your items they were gone. I, for instance, only used my items when I knew I would need them like when I engadged a mech in front of me and another one showed up behind me.

But generally I feel like nothing was really wrong with the way it was before. I'd like to consider myself a pretty good player at the game, and I never just spammed my items. The only people I really saw spamming items were the people with the most deaths, and even now it's still possible to do that as dying resets all of your cooldowns.

It really just boils down to how people play, I think.

Again though, you're playing pub matches
In a comp game, people are going to abuse everything. Nobody's going to care about deaths if it means gaining an advantage (see: Tribes and the acceptance of suiciding as a repositioning function)
It also doesn't matter how long you make respawns. You push forward, wipe the other team or whittle them down to one or two people, then the guys on your end resupply and come back
When you can force a teamfight (which pretty much always happens in a team-based competitive game) the team that spams first and hardest wins. It's not a prolonged fight like some of the duels we've seen in pub matches, nor is it a battle of attrition. The faster you can get rid of people, the better, and if there's no suitable reason to not throw everything at the enemy (and there really isn't, at best we'd see staggered EMP blasts to try to keep maximum uptime, which takes about as much skill as distracting a cat with a piece of string)
Dying with virtually no drawback and with the promise of absurdly powerful items = controlled death becomes the optimal strat

In addition, it's not hard to get kills when you're abusing items. It's not hard to hit an EMP, and even a missed HE nade provides some temporary enemy shifting. You can toss an HE nade and then shoot at the target after they dodge with some focused fire from your team, or just EMP a chokepoint and then alpha strike the fuzzy bunny out of the enemy team

Edited by Beemann, November 20 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[re7rix]

I don't mind the idea of having to return to base for ammo as long as there is unlimited refills for free at all times. I don't like the idea of having a limited resource because for me this becomes a distraction from the fun and pace of the game, this was my biggest criticism of Mech Warrior Online. Hawken doesn't need to be realistic it just needs to be fun and I think its doing a great job at that. MWO already caters for people who want a realistic Mech game.