128 replies to this topic

[Kyrzon]

Not quite. The grenade has limited reach in the sense that in order to travel across the map, you run the risk of the grenade being airborne for so long that you lose the ability to detonate, giving it a soft range. The tow accellerates to a faster travel speed after launch, giving it a *slightly* longer delay on contact or air det. report than the HEAT cannon does. This coupled with the scouts fuel reserves gives the scout the ability to quickly engage and disengage in conflicts and harass opponents at range in a much better manner than infil is capable of.

The infil also has more stealthy capabilities which can cause lots of havoc, but in a direct engagement, the scout with heat loses quite infrequently in 1v1, and even 2v1 confrontations.

At one point, my friends all ganged up on me in titan in a TDM (it was me and a pug vs two of my friends and a pug); I rolled around to the sentium spawn point and hopped up to the roof infront of spawn and one by one they jumped up to the top and they weren't able to take me out. HEAT + TOW is very powerful, and I feel that on the Scout, it's too powerful. If you fancy the HEAT and you're good with the TOW, get a scout, level it to 20, and see for yourself.

[Beemann]

Necro, on November 25 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

The HEAT on a scout essentially makes it a Infiltrator with a different ability_

The TOW delivers damage differently then the GL but it's primarily the same numbers.

The TOW deals more damage, My first run-in with HEAT and TOW knocked me down from 500 to 192, and the GL at least requires some crazy  drop compensation to hit at any decent range
It's not a HUGE damage difference, but it's there, and it's easier to pull off (less explosive air-time, aiming style is more cohesive and the ability itself (which you mentioned in your post) is hardly something to scoff at)

[Toryne]

Beemann, on November 25 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Necro, on November 25 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

The HEAT on a scout essentially makes it a Infiltrator with a different ability_

The TOW delivers damage differently then the GL but it's primarily the same numbers.

The TOW deals more damage, My first run-in with HEAT and TOW knocked me down from 500 to 192, and the GL at least requires some crazy  drop compensation to hit at any decent range
It's not a HUGE damage difference, but it's there, and it's easier to pull off (less explosive air-time, aiming style is more cohesive and the ability itself (which you mentioned in your post) is hardly something to scoff at)

What he said.

[Kyrzon]

Toryne, on November 25 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

Beemann, on November 25 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Necro, on November 25 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

What he said.

Lazy.

[Kyrzon]

Something I hear frequently while playing with friends if they see that I'm using scout;

"Oh, so you're using that cheap fuzzy bunny again_ God damnit."

No joke.

[Necro]

Just run away from it....ohh wait >.>

[Timber_Wolf]

Beemann, on November 25 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

BlackCephie, on November 25 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

That just makes it high risk high reward strategy. You are very easy to kill when you are forced to get close, but you have speed. Just a matter of how well you use your advantages to mitigate your weaknesses.

Except it's not high risk at all, particularly when you look at the maps
All objective based maps are played in close quarters, with the large and empty bits being the virtually unused portions
On missile, you fight over tiny circles that are pretty well surrounded by cover
On siege you fight for the AA, which is always small and cramped, and requires that you actually stand on or in it in order to capture it

Heavy mechs can be mitigated in these instances, due to their low speed and large size
Little zippy A mechs can't

This post is mostly in response to your other points, but I don't want to quote them all.  Now I'm not going to argue the mini-flak, cause that's one thing, but the flak is another.  The mini-flak is a tad ridiculous, sure, but the flak and mini-flak absolutely belong on an A class mech (maybe in slightly toned down/modified forms).  They have to be right in your face, in range where they cannot effectively use explosives, and have to get into that range.  In sahara on missile assault, those "little circles" have plenty of space away from them you can shoot from, ignoring the center point.  You're not required by any means to move into the circle into the scout's range, and if you're in the circle to begin with you have plenty of time to shoot the scout before he gets to you.  In other maps it's obviously easier to get within range, and because of this, unlike other games where maps don't feel as important, make maps feel really really important in hawken for mech choice and team composition.  In a map like uptown (forgive me I'm wrong, the TDM map which is mostly vertical) mechs that are good in CQC are obviously favored in all of its halls.  Map design feels really really important in hawken, and where certain types of mechs congregate shows that.  The fact that a map makes me think about what mech I want to pilot is amazing, and there aren't a ton of games that make me really think about it, really.  And that's awesome.

Acting like it's easy as pie for scouts to get within range without any trouble is just incorrect.  Again, I'm not arguing that the mini-flak is balanced, and I think it should be toned down to make it more balanced, but I certainly think a high-speed, reasonably high-dps, close range build makes sense in the game.  HEAT scout is another story, but I don't think any class should get new unlocks at twenty anyway.  I feel like every class currently has the means to deal with a scout as long as they aren't surprised.  And if you're surprised, you're probably dead regardless of what surprised you, assuming the enemy isn't horrible.

[Beemann]

You're not going to kill anyone on those sahara points unless they're braindead. Smart players can effectively use cover to nullify most if not all the damage you're trying to dish out from range, and they have the option to reposition behind nearby bits of cover. It's not QUITE as bad as it is on Titan, but the very nature of point-capture gameplay means that closing range is a non-factor. The game forces range-closing for you

[Timber_Wolf]

Sure, but while they're stuck behind cover, you can use the time to get the best position you can and do whatever you need, whether it's wait for reinforcements for an assured grab, or whatever.  If you stick them behind cover where they're suppressed by you you've effectively shut them down leaving the two of you in a stalemate.  And this is only assuming you're on offense, which is naturally harder than defense because of this.  They can't move anywhere but you can and you have the range advantage, you can leave and go attack the middle point or wait for back-up, assuming you're a class that can't lead with damage around a corner at all.

On the flip side, if you're defending, what's a scout going to do_  Unless you can't shoot for fuzzy bunny you'll nail them as they come directly at you, and if they're dashing to the side they're out of their effective range.  Offensively, scouts work great when paired up with something, but charging a point in the open like that isn't a smart idea by themselves.

Again, scout is a bit OP at the moment, sure, I just don't think it's quite as bad as you're making it out to be with them being in your face that easily.  Other A class can dash around before they're in range, and I kill plenty of scouts as a berserker and my bruiser can deal with them fairly well using similar tactics and the now-better-at-range hellfire.  Unfortunately I don't have much experience fighting them with C class since I don't like the grenadier or brawler and my HEAT rocketeer is gone.  But flak brawler seems like it's just a contest of who can TOW better and flak better up close and hawkins brawler should be able to abuse the range before the scout closes.

Also, 100th post.

EDIT:  I realize I said getting back up, but I by no means am saying that scout is meant to be 2v1ed, that's just silly, no class should be like that, they should always be 1v1able.  Just illustrating that when they're stuck they're, they're stuck, and dead if you can get reinforcements.

Edited by Timber_Wolf, November 25 2012 - 11:53 PM.

[SavantDouchebag]

Given the animosity towards scout in this thread, I'd better start practising other mechs~

[defekt]

SavantDouchebag, on November 26 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Given the animosity towards scout in this thread, I'd better start practising other mechs~

I used to rock up with a Brawler but a good Scout chews me up and spits me out like so much unwanted breakfast.  That came as quite the shock when it happened to me for the 10th time so I switched to see why the Scout was so much better at brawling than the Brawler is.  Essentially the Scout is only weak in open spaces and there are almost no truly open spaces in the game aside from the main drags on Bazzar.  I’m only up to level 15 with my Scout and I’ve found that they only fear other good Scouts and good Assaults (in low to moderate density cover areas); everything else is pretty much a non-threat in 1v1 terms.  Arm the Scout with a regenerating *sigh* EMP and you’ve got arguably the most effective machine in the game – at least until you reach lvl20 and unlock the HEAT.  *deeper sigh*

I also share, and have advocated before, the opinion that the fastest machines should not be packing sustained fire, high burst weapons¹; most notably being any variation of the currently available Flaks².

¹ The HEAT on the Infil is a very different proposition due to the GL being far shorter range, less bursty, and being generally harder to use than the TOW (a direct shot primary coupled with a lob-shot secondary means the player has to move his aiming reticule around far more than would otherwise be necessary).
² This being entirely aside from getting into analysing why the Mini-Flak isn’t ‘mini’ in any sense of the word.  When it comes to a Flak contest after the first Flak shot the Mini-Flak cannot be caught on any measurable stat.  The Mini-Flak should only begin to catch up with the Flak in total potential damage output through sustain, not out-climb the Flak in every category sans the very first, sometimes second, shot.

[Beemann]

@Timber_Wolf
In a stalemate, the defender wins because their victory condition (having the point) is met while yours (taking the point) will be indefinitely out of reach
If, to break a stalemate, you need backup, it means a 2v1 is necessary to defeat the scout
This isn't the case with heavier mechs, as they can't dodge or chase. The fight is chosen entirely by the attacker so long as a faster mech is present
However the scout IS the fastest mech, and it has the most fuel at its disposal, therefore there IS no faster mech, and therefore the problem persists

[TheChaffeemancer]

Kiwi finds the idea of range closing to be such a huge "this makes it balanced" to be funny. Is there something special about the scout that makes it a bullet magnet_ Kiwi's never had any problems closing the distance on people in a Brawler taking minimal to no damage, to have the same requirement on the fastest machine around doesn't seem like such a huge obstacle.

[Timber_Wolf]

What would you propose be done, exactly, beeman_  As I said the mini is kind of ridiculous atm and needs a damage nerf to lower its dps.  What is it you want done_

[Beemann]

Mini flak needs to get nerfed ultimately. If the Vulcan was OP and needed a nerf then I don't see why the Mini Flak should go unscathed. The Flak itself needs to get taken away from the scout. I'd like to see more weapons added so that there's less secondary overlap, but in the meantime, having just about any other A class applicable primary (HEAT aside) would be preferable
Also level 20 weapons are dumb and need to get removed

[Sylhiri]

Beemann, on November 26 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

Mini flak needs to get nerfed ultimately. If the Vulcan was OP and needed a nerf then I don't see why the Mini Flak should go unscathed. The Flak itself needs to get taken away from the scout. I'd like to see more weapons added so that there's less secondary overlap, but in the meantime, having just about any other A class applicable primary (HEAT aside) would be preferable
Also level 20 weapons are dumb and need to get removed

Not many people would choose a Scout over an Assault if that was the case. Not saying the Flaks damage should be kept but it was the one thing that made Scout unique, besides the fuel ability.

[Beemann]

Sylhiri, on November 26 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Beemann, on November 26 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

Mini flak needs to get nerfed ultimately. If the Vulcan was OP and needed a nerf then I don't see why the Mini Flak should go unscathed. The Flak itself needs to get taken away from the scout. I'd like to see more weapons added so that there's less secondary overlap, but in the meantime, having just about any other A class applicable primary (HEAT aside) would be preferable
Also level 20 weapons are dumb and need to get removed

Not many people would choose a Scout over an Assault if that was the case. Not saying the Flaks damage should be kept but it was the one thing that made Scout unique, besides the fuel ability.

The scout is much faster than the assault, and a properly balanced mini-flak could keep its own niche
You could also... y'know.. come up with new weapons
And while we're discussing that, why is the Berserker allowed to get the shaft_ It's almost exactly the Assault, but as an A class. The only difference is the ability

[Timber_Wolf]

I can agree with that beemann.  I think the mini flaks dps needs a drop, and giving the flak to B and C isnt horrible.  I think it needs slightly higher dps, or comparable at worst, than the current vulcan to make up for range though.

EDIT: agree on level twenty weps and more variety needed.  The SMC works as a placeholder and the berserker uses it better.

Edited by Timber_Wolf, November 26 2012 - 02:00 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Timber_Wolf, on November 26 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

I can agree with that beemann.  I think the mini flaks dps needs a drop, and giving the flak to B and C isnt horrible.  I think it needs slightly higher dps, or comparable at worst, than the current vulcan to make up for range though.

EDIT: agree on level twenty weps and more variety needed.  The SMC works as a placeholder and the berserker uses it better.

The Vulcan's current DPS is mitigated by a spin-up time and high heat generation.
The Mini-Flak doesn't have these drawbacks, and without similar ones, it shouldn't be able to pull off that sort of DPS.

[Sylhiri]

Beemann, on November 26 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

And while we're discussing that, why is the Berserker allowed to get the shaft_ It's almost exactly the Assault, but as an A class. The only difference is the ability

Not sure. I played the Berserker throughout CB2 and loved it, it seems like a mech that fits the Mini-flak (without it's ability) just from the name. I have no idea why the regular Flak is on a A class though.