65 replies to this topic

[LunarEntropy]

It may be a pet peeve of mine, but I can't stand that I join a match in progress on a losing side, decide to leave before even entering the game, and am awarded a loss for abandoning.

 

It's a lose-lose: either I play the game-in-progress with 6 minutes left on a team that is losing 6-24 in kills, and get a loss, or I leave before entering the game and still get a loss.

 

Please let the player leave a match before entering the game and not have it affect their career stats.

[KilleR_OrigiNs]

Redacted.

Edited by KilleR_OrigiNs, 30 April 2015 - 09:56 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

Joining midway through a match on the losing side isn't much of a problem to me. Having another loss under my belt won't do much.

 

 

It's joining a match and the only thing I see is DEFEAT before going to the post match screen, however, does bug me.

[BaronSaturday]

This is the exact reason EoD never looks at career stats when we built our comp team. We looked for people who a) wanted to improve and b) people who could help us do that. Don't worry about career stats. No one takes them seriously when considering anything.

[n3onfx]

You shouldn't care about career stats. Sitting in a 3v2 game will lower your mmr and your points per minute. Playing a mech you're bad at in a lower mmr server will lower those stats and decrease your K/D ratio. Switching to a losing team in a 30 - 12 situation to at least make the remaining 4 minutes more enjoyable for everybody in the server will count as a loss.

 

But these are things nice players do without thinking twice, because in the end it means a better experience for everybody and who cares about numbers on your profile when you can make the game more enjoyable for yourself and others.

[LaurenEmily]

You shouldn't care about career stats. 

This is so damn true. Now tell me how to do that, there's something broken with me in this regard. I would be so much happier never knowing my stupid rank or that such thing even exists because it leads to the need for constantly proving myself as a competent player because of my extremely competitive nature.

 

So what this means is i spend my hours staring at the stupid numbers instead of having fun and it's kinda stressing. If my rating goes low i feel low.

[n3onfx]

This is so damn true. Now tell me how to do that, there's something broken with me in this regard. I would be so much happier never knowing my stupid rank or that such thing even exists because it leads to the need for constantly proving myself as a competent player because of my extremely competitive nature.

 

So what this means is i spend my hours staring at the stupid numbers instead of having fun and it's kinda stressing. If my rating goes low i feel low.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, I like to know my MMR is rising or that my mechs have KDs above 1.5 for example, that's part of being competitive. What I meant is that it shouldn't make you an fuzzy bunny by wanting to preserve those stats at all costs, even by making other's enjoyment worse. I used to be anal about my MMR, but try playing a game without looking at the leaderboard until the end of the game, I know I find myself playing better if I do that because you just focus on the game itself and not on how good you are doing compared to others. Maybe it only works for me because I play better if I just zone out and think about nothing but give it a try!

 

edit: One example I recall is that I used to only play 1 or 2 mechs because playing others at my current level at the time would make my MMR drop drastically while learning it. I decided "fuzzy bunny it" when wanting to learn Raider and my mmr dropped by something close to 200 points for a couple weeks, but now it's back up and I'm having a blast playing Raider.

 

If you focus on those numbers you get scared to try new stuff and ultimately get scared to take risks to improve. In the end I still get a kick from getting better over time and finally managing to beat players I couldn't touch before, the actual numbers shouldn't distract from that. A big part of the fun, at least for me, is bringing a new mech to the same level as your other ones. And focusing on numbers only makes you scared to do that.

Edited by n3onfx, 19 April 2015 - 05:59 AM.

[OmegaNull]

How about just staying. Even if I join a game that is loosing it can still be fun. There is a difference between a good loss and a bad loss. A good loss is sticking otu till the end and doing everything you can. A bad loss is just giving up. 

[Kopra]

Better to just stay in the game so you can be matchmade in a more balanced manner in the next match. 

[Panzermanathod]

I'm not worried about my stats because I can't even get a K/DR of 1.

[LunarEntropy]

I'd like to thank you all for your input, but what I'm hearing here is 'suck it up, take unfair losses' instead of talking about solutions to unfair situations.

 

Please lets be constructive instead of telling people how they 'should' be as a player.

 

There are other players like myself who do care about career stats, and use them as benchmarks for progress.  With that in mind there are easy fixes to more accurately provide players with wins and losses when they deserve them, and not provide them when they are not deserved.

[Panzermanathod]

And the easiest way to do that is to disallow joining in matches that already started.

 

Which probably won't happen anytime soon, if ever, all things considered.

[XPloyt]

 

 

There are other players like myself who do care about career stats, and use them as benchmarks for progress.  With that in mind there are easy fixes to more accurately provide players with wins and losses when they deserve them, and not provide them when they are not deserved.

 

What career, bruh?

 

 

 

We just think there are more things to focus on.

 

[KilleR_OrigiNs]

Redacted.

Edited by KilleR_OrigiNs, 21 April 2015 - 07:36 PM.

[Aristo]

...I used to be anal about my MMR, but try playing a game without looking at the leaderboard until the end of the game, I know I find myself playing better if I do that because you just focus on the game itself and not on how good you are doing compared to others...

I was thinking about this the other day. Sometimes, and this applies to all games, I'll get too flustered worrying about stats instead of playing the round. Yes, I do like to know where I'm standing once in a while, but I've been thinking that eliminating that extra burden from rounds will have a more favorable outcome for my gameplay. So I just remapped the scoreboard to some obscure key on the other side of the keyboard to try to break the habit; we'll see how that goes!

[XPloyt]

Personal attack. Executed sloppily.

 

Nah...assuming you were talking to me. If you really were though, I'd tell you to be critical of players you've actually dealt with, or at least ones you can consider making judgement calls upon.

 

But to Lunar:

 

I think with Hawken in it's current state, if Win/Loss ratio matters that much to you over gameplay in a beta, then it would probably be best to find a game that has everything established, where you could then focus on improving your gameplay without worry of your numbers being "fudged" or "manipulated". Even though it's annoying, I believe giving a person another reason to leave would only further de-stabilize the population, and that's the last thing we need.

 

I posted your mech stats only to show where you've headed, not to belittle, and put mine in comparison only to show that i've been around the block, and to back my claim as to consider playing the game for what it offers rather than statistics, something that can't be accommodated for at this time - and I was being tongue-in-cheek, believe it or not.

Edited by XPloyt, 20 April 2015 - 02:46 PM.

[Vlenzo]

XPloyt is my nemesis ok Lunar back off 

[GalaxyRadio]

Nice thread,

 

here is what i think and what i get in return (mostly, not every time of course)

 

1. i join a loosing match just to see the endscreen

1.1 well, this way i can't do much, not even start with a mech into a game thats already ending

 

2. i join a game, where someone left just before i came to be in a 4 vs 5 situation and much lower score (it dosn't matter if its siege, missle assault or tdm)

2.1 iam asking nicely, if soemone could sit out for better balancing, but people like to stomp anyway, so i have a not enjoyable game until the frustrating end

2.2 people are calling me whiner, looser and what they like, fine

 

3. i join a game, were my team had 1 less, but is leading by a huge margin and can't loose, whatever will happen in the future (tdm)

3.1 what do i do then? Of course, iam sitting out and get slappend by my own teammates for that

3.2 sometimes even the enemy team says play, and is getting stomped in the meantime.... Noone is going to say "thank you for beeing nice", no, they don't even read, not wondering why i have 0 points standing around, watching the fight and shoot the hell out of me

 

But i have 1 more. If iam sitting out, because iam nice and try to make a better experience for everyone doing such things and the enemyteam get suddenly 2 more people and thge tide change suddenly, because they are also very strong player, what do you think happens next? Exactly, there is noone sitting out for us this time, they are stomping us now, fine....

 

Whatever i do, whatever i decide, its damn wrong for mostly everyone. This tells me, that the "hawken communits" is not as great as many thinks it is. We have many egoistic players, only caress about their statics, mmr and be the king on the hill and i don't like that. 

 

And then there are some players talking about "this is the only mech you play, because of this your team is loosing", and if they loose againts the same person playing the same mech before, they are quiet, not surprising.

 

This is driving me nuts lately. There are many players i would like to ban, because the think only about themself and don't care what others think or could feel, stomping new players hard, calling good 2200mmr player noobs, taunting all day long and try to offend people.

 

Thats how toxic hawken is right now, at least on europe, i can't speak for US. Well, this is the only onlinegame iam playing right now, so i don't now, considering other games, if hawken is already a good case for good community, but if thats is true, i would be ashamend to be called a "gamer"

 

Kind Regards,

 

Galaxy Radio

[Panzermanathod]

I'll stand down in an uneven match if someone asks. Otherwise, I'll just keep going.

[LaurenEmily]

Galaxy is right, i don't think i have seen anyone trying to keep the games balanced and fun as much as he/she does, with the cost of sacrificing his/her own stats and gameplay-experience when sitting out.

 

The community in the forums is way better than in the actual game, at least the EU community seems pretty bad, filled with quitters, whiners and people who just flat-out insult others or ruin the game by feeding when something doesn't go their way. It is sad how it is currently.

[KilleR_OrigiNs]

Redacted. 

Edited by KilleR_OrigiNs, 30 April 2015 - 09:57 PM.

[LunarEntropy]

It's fairly sad that most people here refuse to talk about possible solutions and instead see this as a toxic community issue.  

I think this issue can be somewhat easily fixed with simple adjustments on how the code keeps track of wins or losses.

If a player joins a game in progress, having an option for them to sit out instead of being immediately placed on a team could be helpful, or simply having it so if a player joins a game in progress their k/d/a still is kept track but the win or loss isn't.

 

 

@Xplayt, if you feel like making a personal attack at my record 'for comparison' instead of being constructive, I'd be happy to not play with you any time.

Just because someone has more hours logged into this game doesn't make them an 'elite' player entitled to do or say whatever they want.

 

I know that I would play a lot more Hawken if there were simple fixes made, but players like that make me think otherwise.

Edited by LunarEntropy, 20 April 2015 - 08:14 PM.

[Silverfire]

How about past a certain time threshold (maybe with 3:00 left or something, it's arbitrary), wins and losses don't count. I urge you all to stay in any match, and as long as people remain, the auto balancer will do its work and normally does a pretty good job at balancing. It's people that leave constantly that screw with the matchmaker and auto balancer because then they never gave it a chance to work.

Instead of not-punishing players for leaving matches, give incentives to staying in a server longer.

-------------------

A note on "elite" players: regardless if he's actually better than you or not, time played in a game usually translates to a deeper understanding of the game, therefore that player is a little more credible. And nobody is entitled, just that Xployt is trying to tell you that maybe there are better things to focus on that W/L, or not focus on anything at all. He qualified his post quite well.

So really, just play! Don't worry be happy

Edited by Silverfire, 20 April 2015 - 08:04 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

 

If a player joins a game in progress, having an option for them to sit out instead of being immediately placed on a team could be helpful, or simply having it so if a player joins a game in progress their k/d/a still is kept track but the win or loss isn't.

 

Hypothetically, how many users would even use such a feature? Either leave or do nothing for a long period of time just so you don't effect your W/L record, I don't think something like that would see widespread use. Not unused mind you.

 

Also, having the game ignore certain stat changes is kinda iffy. Really, these suggestions boil down to an additional game of stat micromanagement. Really, the simplest solution is to take the losses on the chin and keep going. Is it really so bad to do so instead of Win/Loss micromanagement? I'm not saying the stats aren't important to some extent, but I think implementing ways to "circumvent additional losses" will induce a corrosive mentality to players of this game.

[LunarEntropy]

How about past a certain time threshold (maybe with 3:00 left or something, it's arbitrary), wins and losses don't count. 

This could work, if that threshold was 6:00 or 6:30, but then why even have the threshold in the first place, why not just make it 'if you join a game in progress'?

[Silverfire]

This could work, if that threshold was 6:00 or 6:30, but then why even have the threshold in the first place, why not just make it 'if you join a game in progress'?

A bit of a two edged sword. If you really care about W/L, what happens when you join a match and your team is winning. Doesn't count? What about you get into a game with 9:30 left to go, the round just started and you end up winning? Doesn't count?

Man there's a lot of uncounted wins you could pad your stats with. I'm not sure how that's roll over with you. Your suggestion is biased and geared towards only losing matches, which is what you're complaining about. You're assuming you will always lose a match joining mid game, which is never the case. What about epic comebacks? I've dropped into a 10-24 losing match, and we completely turned it around and won 40-38. Stick it out man, you never know what happens.

[LunarEntropy]

A bit of a two edged sword. If you really care about W/L, what happens when you join a match and your team is winning. Doesn't count? What about you get into a game with 9:30 left to go, the round just started and you end up winning? Doesn't count?

Man there's a lot of uncounted wins you could pad your stats with. I'm not sure how that's roll over with you. Your suggestion is biased and geared towards only losing matches, which is what you're complaining about. You're assuming you will always lose a match joining mid game, which is never the case. What about epic comebacks? I've dropped into a 10-24 losing match, and we completely turned it around and won 40-38. Stick it out man, you never know what happens.

It's fine if wins aren't counted as well as losses.  It makes it a lot more balanced.  But the problem here is that joining a match in progress statistically puts you on a losing side far more often than a winning side due to the nature why there was an opening on that team in the first place.  If you're given a free win for every two free losses, it's much better to just not be given either of them.   The bias may be geared toward losing matches, but that's due to the matchmaking system's bias of placing people into a game in progress on a losing side.  

 

If you enter a game with 9:30 left and the win or loss doesn't count, then just enjoy the game and have fun!  As for epic comebacks, well what about epic losses?  That's a statistical improbability that is best kept to the margins and not constructive as an incentive to keep player retention.  

[Silverfire]

The matchmaker tries to put people on the losing side to balance it out. They're losing for some odd reason so the matchmaker does the quickest way to remedy that: adding another player, and adding a varying degree of skill to that team.

When you say statistically, I'll assume you're speaking from your own experience and I count that as anecdotal evidence. You don't exactly know why there is a spot for another player on any given server. You can't assume that someone has left. Maybe the server started as a 5v4.

There might be players who would complain about not getting rewarded a win with such time left on the clock (9:30). When you say your advice, it can easily be reciprocated to you. You can't say it's more balanced because at the end of the day, it boils down to your own preference of keeping a tidy W/L ratio, something hardly valid for a serious stat tracker change. As a matter of fact, the abandon stat originated as a means to dissuade leavers. Stick it out, one game might be an epic win, or an epic loss. Take it as a learning experience and the next match will be more balanced if you allow the matchmaker to work.

Hey, I don't enjoy losing either, but I stick it out regardless because I don't give a fuzzy bunny about my W/L ratio. If I did, I'd pubstomproll 1800 MMR servers and be done with it. You lose, you win, it doesn't matter in the end. Like you said, just enjoy the game and have fun!

And as I've stated before, instead of not-punishing players for leaving or joining mid match (if that can be considered a punishment), offer incentives to stay in servers longer.

Edited by Silverfire, 20 April 2015 - 08:38 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

 But the problem here is that joining a match in progress statistically puts you on a losing side far more often than a winning side due to the nature why there was an opening on that team in the first place.

 

  The bias may be geared toward losing matches, but that's due to the matchmaking system's bias of placing people into a game in progress on a losing side.  

Might want to reword that. You know that people tend to drop out of matches due to being on the losing team. The Matchmaker isn't "biased" towards putting one on the losing side, it's just where the most open slots are.

[KilleR_OrigiNs]

Redacted.

Edited by KilleR_OrigiNs, 30 April 2015 - 09:57 PM.

[XPloyt]

I am more critical than most anyone, about everything I do.
I judge you for your comment, and that will not change.

 

I said it wasn't a personal attack. Considering I'm nobody special, I wouldn't judge - whatever that means to you -  a person by their words(especially on a forum board), unless of course it was clear it was meant to get a specific reaction, even more so when aided by a routine. To me, your claim comes off as unfounded ignorance because I don't know you, however if you have a legitimate problem with me, feel free to pm me.

 

@Xplayt, if you feel like making a personal attack at my record 'for comparison' instead of being constructive, I'd be happy to not play with you any time.

Just because someone has more hours logged into this game doesn't make them an 'elite' player entitled to do or say whatever they want.

 

@LoonyTrophy Forget the game. I'll assert that I'm entitled to say whatever I want, regardless of what anyone's individual or collective opinions are about me.

 

I'm sorry you feel I've come across as some kind of bully;  I was poking fun, but honestly I was trying widen the perspective on your viewpoints for you and anyone reading(in-between the lines). You took something vague I posted and reacted, not only defensively, but negatively.

 

It is kind of ironic that you claim to care about stats but simultaneously despise me by labeling me as an "elite" on your own accord, trying to discredit me. Do you only care about stats in general when it only concerns you? Can you take anything positive away from this yourself? Would users have responded differently, or not feel threatened had I not shown my stats(which I don't care about btw)? I see stats as more of an insight to the player, but I intend to still be objective about it.

 

If you don't have the time to play with the flaws and get to know inner-workings of Hawken, you'll never enjoy potential gameplay it offers, at least to a substantial degree that makes the game worth playing, in my opinion. If I had little time to play much like you say you do, I know I wouldn't enjoy Hawken. It just seems like the whole "don't allow win/loss when joining at the end of the game" is an empty nit-pick for someone who hasn't dared to explore more aspects of the game - it even comes off a bit disrespectful for the people who have the power to dismiss trivial matters when playing.

 

Please take note that I never said your idea was bad.

 

[XPloyt]

Here will be the most constructive thing I can give you Lunar, and for the like-minded:

 

Want to avoid joining games at the end?

 

1. Use Chrome.

2. Use and have the Hawken server list site bookmarked - http://hawken.herokuapp.com/

3. Download and register the chrome extension "Easy Auto Refresh" for $10 - this will allow you to have the page refresh on it's own, and registering it will allow for advanced options.

4. Find and click the auto refresh button, which will appear on the right end of the url bar

5. Click "advanced options", then click "Refresh by clicking link or button". Type in this code:

body > div > div.col-sm-8.col-md-9.box.mainbox > div.row.box.headerbox > div.input-group.col-xs-6 > span

This will automate refreshing the server list (rather than the whole page) by pressing the refresh button next to the server search bar. You can have it set at custom intervals.

 

6. Select %complete to allow sorting by how far a game is completed.

 

Edit: I think it's funny that now after making this post the server list refreshing is a thing now. XD

I use auto refresh to refresh in 1 or 2 second intervals, but having the list refresh on it's own every 30 seconds is still better than having to refresh the page.

Edited by XPloyt, 25 April 2015 - 11:59 PM.

[KilleR_OrigiNs]

Redacted.

Edited by KilleR_OrigiNs, 21 April 2015 - 07:36 PM.

[BaronSaturday]

I really still don't get why this is a problem for you. Your herokuapp is going to give me far more information than your career profile will and it'll do it on the fly, neatly organized from top to bottom.

MMR. While people argue that this stat is meaningless for non comp players, no one will say that this number isn't the most important variable when making a decision for comp. It's all teams talk about. Members on serious teams push that number as far as they can and even compete amongst eachother with it. Fenrir is closing our mmr gap. It was inevitable because the kid is just good for no reason. He's gonna be the Stefano of HAWKEN. But I'm still going to push mine to keep him behind me because that contest makes us both better.

Other things shown on heroku in a flash are your mechs. Each have stats that can be looked into for each weapon you use. Down to what skins and chasis you have unlocked for that mech. It shows what mechs you're positive on. Everything anyone wants to know about you/ is on there. If a team captain concerns himself with your w/l before all considerations above, you may think twice about joining that team.

[KilleR_OrigiNs]

Redacted. 

Edited by KilleR_OrigiNs, 30 April 2015 - 09:57 PM.

[Silverfire]

I'm under the impression that your MMR is based off of your score relative to others in the room (not W/L).

[KilleR_OrigiNs]

Redacted.

Edited by KilleR_OrigiNs, 30 April 2015 - 09:57 PM.

[BaronSaturday]

It is, but that score is derived by if you win or lose to the people in rooms you've already played in.

Not completely. While a match w/l is taken / into consideration, it has more to do with how you do compared to others in the room relative to their mmr based on score, kills, deaths, and assists.

[KilleR_OrigiNs]

Redacted.

Edited by KilleR_OrigiNs, 30 April 2015 - 09:57 PM.

[BaronSaturday]

And that MMR is derived from whether you win the match, or lose it.

I'm looking at the equation, that's what it is. Your score, their scores, and both are defined by wins and losses.

I lose A LOT and almost always net a positive.

I know it factors in win or loss, but that's not the highest value.

Edit: At least since I've been #tryharding.

Edited by SaturdayGhede, 22 April 2015 - 10:33 PM.