13 replies to this topic

[Panzermanathod]

I am not suggesting this change should be made, I merely want to discuss with users if this change may be viable in Hawken.

 

It is a change that is similar to something Armored Core did when it hit Nexus. Before that, rapid fire weapons were quite useful in AC fights, laying on sustained damage as long as you kept the opponent in your sights.

 

And then, Nexus added magazines to weapons. Essentially, you had only so many shots before you had to reload, and reloading took X amount of time to do. Also, if you are carrying a partial clip and you don't shoot for some time, you will automatically reload and have a full clip. This reload mechanic was added to most weapons capable of sustained fire. Shotguns, machineguns, rifles, pistols, and chainguns. There were ones that didn't but were the exceptions, and weren't generally good for prolonged battles, moreso (in most cases) for relatively high sustained damage over a short period of time (The Finger Machine gun is the best example of this). Personally, I think the balances could have been done better but, eh.

 

So, to reiterate...

 

Sustained fire weapons get a mag count. Once the ammo is expired in the mag it takes a short period of time to reload.

 

Not firing with a partial clip will cause an auto reload.

 

Since this is purely for discussion I won't try to balance this with the heat system. So, do you think Hawken should have this change? If so, how would you balance things? And why is it that Yami'Jizah is my best mech in Hawken and Armored Core: Last raven, while having comparable color schemes and weapon load outs?

 

I'm hoping to see some interesting answers.

[WastingTime]

Would this not behave in a similar manner as the current system with heat generation? 

[Panzermanathod]

Not quite. If you use just the primmary rapid fire weapons alone you can keep firing for a while before heating up. The clip sizes, hypothetically, would not be nearly large enough to have someone fire for 10-13 seconds.

 

Of course, there's also firing secondary weapons, but since there are some who have issues with sustained fire weapons I figured I'd make this thread and see if this sort of idea would fly.

[Merl61]

God. Why. If anything is going to be done, the simpler solution is the better one. The easiest solution to the sustained problem is a slight dps nerf. 

[Flight1ess]

God. Why. If anything is going to be done, the simpler solution is the better one. The easiest solution to the sustained problem is a slight dps nerf. 

And that ladies and gentlemen is the solution 

 

goodnight everybody :D

[Panzermanathod]

Well, so much for discussion.

[WastingTime]

@  Panzermanathod

It is funny to picture a gun with a magazine large to sustain fire for 14 seconds given the rate of fire.

P1: Is that a sky scraper on your smc or is your mech happy to see me?
P2: Oh it's my um... just my magazine...

[CounterlogicMan]

God. Why. If anything is going to be done, the simpler solution is the better one. The easiest solution to the sustained problem is a slight dps nerf. 

inb4 burst op 

 

I think they are in good places damage wise. I think the problem is that you can spam the fuzzy bunny out of sustain weapons without worrying that much about heat. As opposed to burst weapons which, when compared to sustain, require the pilot to worry way more about aiming/heat/timing.

 

 

discussion of op:

 

I personally do not feel that Hawken would benefit from a limited mag on sustain weapons. The heat mechanic already does what you propose but applies to all weapons and not just sustained. When you add mags to a game you have to worry about reload times and how that effects the overall balance of the game. A huge change especially when you take into account that heat management isn't going anywhere. 

 

Maybe a more elegant solution would be to have sustained weapons generate a little more heat than they do now?

 

Personally I feel this sort of change would punish crappy aim/impatience/spamming more. Which I think is something Hawken could benefit from. Right now most players, when using sustain mechs, just hold down the left mouse button and spam tows/gl until the enemy is ded. An increase in heat gen would put more emphasis on aiming well, heat management, and timing shots rather than just spamming hitscan/hugesplashradius weapons. 

 

Most of all I think we should avoid opening the pandoras box of damage balancing Hawken. For the most part I feel balance of Hawken is in a pretty good spot. Heat management and splash radius.....maybe slight tweaks needed. maybe

 

 

tl:dr A mag like limitation on firing is already implemented in the form of heat capacities. I feel aiming/timing/heat management in Hawken is too forgiving which benefits sustained mechs more than burst mechs. 

Edited by CounterlogicMan, 22 April 2015 - 09:08 AM.

[DerMax]

God. Why. If anything is going to be done, the simpler solution is the better one. The easiest solution to the sustained problem is a slight dps nerf. 

And then the boost delay gets reduced and burst becomes op again :3

[MomOw]

Mag' are replaced by heat and it almost does the job. Increase the heat per seconds ("+2 heat per seconds" for AR, SMC, Vulcan, SA, RPR and AM-SAR).

 

And nerf orbs ! (IMHO burst will benefit more from orb nerf)

[AsianJoyKiller]

Why add a new mechanic when you could just increase the heat generation of sustained weapons and achieve the same end result?

[Panzermanathod]

For one aside, again, I'm not suggesting this be added in. In fact, in it's comparison with Armored Core I found the added magazine limitation to have made a lot of weapons not very good.

 

Another aside, In comparison to Armored Core, by the time Nexus came along AC also had heat levels as well. Only difference is that there were more ways to raise and lower heat levels.

 

Anyway, doesn't seem like this mechanic could fit in Hawken.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

Given the options of (1) lowering DPS, (2) increasing heat generation, and (3) introducing clips:

(1) Lowering the DPS is punishing for when the sustained weapons do end up in a situation that should favour them. While an easy fix, I feel that it is too easy to end up in a situation that was resolved in the past for when sustained weapons did too little damage for a long time. It does not help that this would also benefit corner play. This also does not address the concern for how long sustained weapons can fire.

 

(2) Increasing heat generation is punishing for when the sustained weapons are fired with low accuracy (but the DPS would remain favourable for the times when strategically, the situation should be in favour of sustained weapons). Corner play should actually become more interesting for both burst and sustained weapons, since sustained weapons will no longer be able to simply suppress a corner for a long time. Sustained weapons will still have their current DPS for when a corner play goes bad on the burst weapon's side, but the heat generation will also generate more opportunities for a player behind a corner to punish.

 

(3) Introducing clips would create a second layer of resource management on top of one that serves roughly the same purpose of putting a break into sustained fire, such that sustained weapons are not permitted simply to fire indefinitely or for an excessive amount of time. Although I think the clips idea could technically serve its purpose, I think the end result, combined with the heat generation, would simply play out in a very clunky, un-fun way that is also somewhat counter-intuitive to what players in shooters generally see. Besides this possibility of redundancy, there is also the trouble of making or modifying art assets and then balancing the reload times.

 

---

 

Given the three options, I would first prefer that heat generation be increased, then a look given at DPS, and after considering other alternatives, look at the clip mechanic. Introducing a clip mechanic overall I think would feel too clunky on top of the existing heat mechanic and other weapon-stopping items in the game, especially when compared to other, simpler options.

[Source_Mystic]

 

tl:dr A mag like limitation on firing is already implemented in the form of heat capacities. I feel aiming/timing/heat management in Hawken is too forgiving which benefits sustained mechs more than burst mechs. 

 

 I think several things should be tweaked I hit a guy the other night with like a ridiculous  amout of mines   mines he had half health and was an b class.     Direct hits and he just kept coming a friend I know that plays pred had the  same thing happen to him. In both cases we  were like oh  fU^%$ how are you still standing both died of course why because even though we were dam accurate.

 

 Sustained vs burst is a serious handicap unless you have cover. Then because of the time delay of charging aiming and the shooting delay as well as the increased  heat generation.   This forces you to play a very defensive way. He said predator could get a slight buff as that is a option personalty I would just like my mines not to explode  they hit each other  I think that is bs  I need to cluster them together to get damage but if I get too close they all explode WTF.I think turning up the heat generation on sustained weapons is a better option than buffing pred mines. Damage is relative in a closed system. As I think this this would solve both problems. 

 

I would also like to see hellfires fixed because right now they are fuzzy bunny if the arking worked better maybe,  increase speed some and buff damage and splash slightly  and or shorten the warring  get rid of it altogether. Right now as it stands I am better off with a incinerator or a grenadier  than I am with a rickety rocketry  Hellfire missal. shi&^yest  weapon in the game at the moment.

 

TURN UP THE HEAT generation on true sustained weapons I do not even think all of them really we are talking about  Three automatic weapons the Vulcan you can fire for 15 seconds the smg 17 and the assult 17.  as a pred spamming my mines I over heat in like 10 or 11 seconds and that is all the space in between charging and such.  sharp shooter with slug is the same 10 or 11.  seconds  As I see burst damage should not be the same beast. I also agree that these three weapons smg assult and vulcan could use the heat turned up a notch. I do not expect them to be the same as burst fire weapons but just look at the difference.

 

  The sustained  weapons are doing  consent hitscan damage. Where as all burst weapons have a heat dynamic as well as a  a cool down before you can fire them as well as the travel time  if you will before you can make you next shot as well as higher heat generation. travel time is mainly in the case of heat and eoc-r  eoc-p. but its still stands to reason there needs st be some more balancing here turning up the heat  vulcan smg and assault .  I think balances out the system a bit.  Befor you start screaming all I use is burst weapons no I use the mechs with these guns as well. 

 

I do not see the point of adding clips.  Heat generation already is the mechanic hawken uses. You do not have to reinvent the wheel just fix the one you got.  I think this could have another effect  that would increase team play you want longer time firing get a incinerator. And  stay by him. this buff is already in game but rarely used because the over heat times are so high. 

Edited by Source_Mystic, 28 April 2015 - 08:02 AM.