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Hawken maps R poop.

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#1
Massive_Assailant_Stingray

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I typed this up the other day, however I delayed its release so that vanguard wouldn't know the maps I secretly hate most.

 

Each hawken map has it's own redeeming qualities, but overall I think they're all bad.
All of my opinions will be based off the missile assault game mode. It's my favorite mode, as it encourages teams to organize and coordinate simultaneously on 2 fronts. (More so than the other modes at least.) I think that creates much more interesting and fun teamplay, as opposed to the "deathball" which can be so common in hawken. I also think hawkens DM mechanics really shine at smaller skirmishes.

I'll start with the worst map:

Bazaar is the very definition of unbalanced, as it's asymmetrical layout creates a, quite literal, uneven playing field. One team spawns behind a series of choke points, while the other team spawns behind an open field with plenty of cover. If you're going to have two teams working towards the exact same objective then the map really needs to be mirrored. Point 1 and 3 don't need to be identical. (and they probably shouldn't be) But each team needs to have the same layout/rollout/path to a point regardless of which side of the field they're on.

 

I'll lump last eco and facility together. I think the triangle layout is bad design. Lack of dedicated spawns creates a level of randomness that isn't conducive to structured game play at either the public or competitive level. This layout and the random spawns also encourages the "deathball" ring around the rosey scenario.

 

That being said these are probably my two favorite maps. I find it's way more likely to capture and hold two points on these maps, rather than a constant trade off, or the ring around the rosey.(though that may be partially due to the over all lack of structure creating a scattered offense) The points aren't too cramped, they're nice and open, while still maintaining good cover, making DM on or around the points pleasurable. But probably most important is how viable and rewarding flanks are on these maps comparative to other maps. Due to the layout of cover and routes, flanks on these maps are relatively quick a provide good positioning. This is insanely important because of how restrictive and punishable movement is in hawken. Radar instantly gives away the position of anyone boosting or hovering. But the flanks on these maps are faster, allowing you to set them up off radar, while still providing you good positioning against opponents not keeping track of their surroundings.

 

EDIT: Forgot about bunker I guess. I suppose for bunker: Same criticisms as other triangle maps, except without any of the redeeming qualities.

 

Frontline has the mirrored set up going for it which is nice, but it's just way too large. Traveling between points takes too long, and is very fuel consuming. That's if you take the main routes, some of the flanks are twice as arduous. Point 1 is much more desirable than point 3, where they should both provide some pros and cons. Pushing from 3 to 2 you're met mostly with chokes. Point 1 on the other hand provides you better control over the bridge which has a very strong height advantage over 2. The points themselves are pretty nice though. Good mix of open areas and cover makes DM enjoyable.

Origin also has a mirrored set up but is way to small. Point 2 is very cramped and comes down throwing fire power and health at the point while movement takes a back seat. But once you hold it you can throw down almost uncontested damage onto the lower points. No point in any of the maps should really provide such a strong direct sight to the other points. It's not uncommon to see the death ball on this map where you collapse on the lower points and then instantly jump back up to point 2.

Wreckage seems to be the fan favorite. And quite rightfully so. It's got the mirrored layout, the points aren't too far apart, but they're not too close together. Though I really dislike this map. Virtually everything inside the "ship" part of the map is way too cramped, and the lines of sight are very strong, and very direct. There's little to no breathing room on point 2 when larger numbers are being thrown at it. And once you hold it you can take one step off it into the wide hall, and stare directly into spawn or point 3, or one step into the narrow hall and put damage on anything coming down a single, long choke. That brings up issues with the third point as well. I wouldn't say point 3 is too close to point 2, but the line of sight is much too direct. Standing directly on 2 you can have eyes on anything the moment it comes out of 3's main exit, and even before that it's pretty easy to spam with projectiles, especially those with an arc. Point 1 is largely ignored, probably because it's very open, and suffers a large height disadvantage to anyone coming out of 2. When faced with too much pressure from the top your only real options are to fall back towards your own spawn, or your opponents spawn, which isn't very favorable.

This write up conveys only a small portion of how I feel about hawkens maps. There's much more I'd like to say on the matter but I'm not very good at putting this sort of thing into words, though I think I did manage to get a decent outline of the subject here.


Edited by Massive_Assailant_Stingray, 07 May 2015 - 09:27 PM.

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#2
ticklemyiguana

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bunker masterrace


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#3
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Bunker is the playground for the Scout Master Race.


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#4
Massive_Assailant_Stingray

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bunker masterrace

 

Oh, rofl, I forgot all about bunker. Hooboy, I don't even know what to say about bunker right now. I'll have to sleep on it.

 

I suppose for bunker: Same criticisms as other triangle maps, except without any of the redeeming qualities.



#5
DieselCat

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Interesting outlook on these maps using MA and DM as the game mode examples. I also enjoy MA the most, though it is hard to find matches in servers at certain times. I usually play later in the evenings and a lot of the MA servers (NA) are empty.

 

I do agree with many of your thoughts on how the map layouts do have an effect on the gameplay mainly in MA. I'm sure certain maps also have an effect on how TDM and Siege end up getting played due to multi levels and choke points that can be taken advantage by strong and well organized teams.

 

I'm guessing map issues are (will be) topics addressed by the devs. but probably not for some time. What will be done ?, again not sure if its feasible to rework some existing maps or just take into consideration known problems and use that information when creating new maps...(I'm sure there will be new Maps ?)

 

I think there are some good maps, some just ok ones and then there are the maps that I'll play but really prefer to skip altogether. All in all I think addressing map imbalances will go a long way to help improve overall gameplay for everyone

 

Nice post  :thumbsup:

 

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#6
driedjello

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I really like Origin.  So much vertical!


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#7
DeeRax

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I can't quite put my finger on it, but I always meet bazaar with difficulty. Almost always either one team is stomping or the other, from the beginning, and it SEEMS like it largely has to do with starting position (I've been on both sides of the stompage). On the off chance the game progresses roughly equivically, it usually devolves into a weird WW1-y battle of attrition (Which could be good or bad, depending on your point of view); ESPECIALLY true in the 'mayhem' modes of play. So, given the attrition-y style of play that tends to occur with 2 'equal' teams, maybe then that's the way it should be, but something about it always seems a little 'off.'

Last Eco is my absolute MOST HATED map of all of them; Why/how this fictional planet hasn't completely cut this fuzzy bunny down yet eludes me. And I even color my mechs primarily green, for fuzzy bunny's sake.
For realsies though, coordinated flanking in this map seems to win the game, which... Good for the team that actually pulls it off, I guess, but I rarely seem to make it onto that team. If that simply speaks to my OWN failings as a player on this map, well... Uh, sorry comrades.

I wouldn't lump Facility in with Last Eco, though, for sure. In my (admittedly limited) experience, this has been one of the most balanced maps for me, and subsequently one of the most fun. Rarely is this map a one-sided stomp, and more often than not it's almost always an exciting back-and-forth tug-of-war (ALMOST always). I'd wager this has to do with the map's almost illusory level of verticality - It can seem fairly flat at first glance, but with a plentiful array of cover, multi-level indoor areas, and high-vantage points, it's actually a quite dynamic map. ...TECHNICALLY Last Eco can claim to be a little similar in that regard, I will admit, albeit with almost all open areas. But I have hardly ever seen the 'deathball' happen on Facility, where on Last Eco it seems much more common. I dunno, maybe it's the damned trees getting in the way of my bulletguns.

Frontline... I like it, I guess... But I almost ALWAYS see a 'deathball' in favor of one side or the other. Without fail. *queue "WELL BREAK UP THE DEATHBALL/DONT LET THE DEATHBALL HAPPEN" arguments* *Except it always happens, always, whatever.*

Origin is perfect, IMHO. I can see the argument for the top central point sort of overshadowing the other two in terms of positioning, but I think that's just an inherent part of the map, and it usually works well.

Wreckage is great, and is what Last Eco WISHES it could be. That said, the complaints against Point 1 are totally valid and true, IMO, having tried to defend that point, specifically, many, many times. It's definitely a better idea to defend 2 & 3. Is that just 'part of the map,' like origin? *shrug* (Prolly not tho).

I originally hated Bunker, but it's quickly becoming one of my favorites nowadays. It's kind of awesome, actually.

Uptown will ALWAYS be my absolute fav (Unless the other team is entirely grenadiers/manguards. But that's still fun in it's own way).

Uh, drunk & noob, soo, grain of salt.


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#8
Hyginos

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So the question becomes: is it better to tweak the current maps or release new ones?

 

My vote is for the latter, but I'm curious what others think.


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#9
ThirdEyE

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So the question becomes: is it better to tweak the current maps or release new ones?

 

My vote is for the latter, but I'm curious what others think.

Both.  New maps and mechs will always draw the most people back to the game.  But you could also consider the current maps to be "almost done" since it would take only a little bit of work to fix them (except maybe Bunker, not sure how to fix it without major overhaul).


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#10
DeeRax

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................
 

New maps, honestly, mostly.
It'll have the secondary effect of making some of the old "problematic" maps seem less so (Because less repetition).

 

Baaaack in the day, going from TF2 on PS3* to TF2 on PC was amazing, partially because** of the wider selection of maps. This in turn "refreshed" the old maps, and made them seem new again.***

(*Plz... I know...)
(**The other reason being mouse & keyboard.)
(***Yeah, I was a ludite once. Shut up I have an awesome PC now).
(****Bunker is almost perfect).


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#11
Massive_Assailant_Stingray

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Both.  New maps and mechs will always draw the most people back to the game.  But you could also consider the current maps to be "almost done" since it would take only a little bit of work to fix them (except maybe Bunker, not sure how to fix it without major overhaul).

 

I don't know if "a little bit of work" can really address the points I've laid out here. I'm thinking more along the lines of major structural changes. I can't really think of a way of making static/standardized spawn positions for the triangle maps that don't hugely bias each team to one of the specific points. A point bias on the initial spawn works out fine, but good luck trying to hold anything beside your point and the unbiased 3rd point when each team consistently spawns next to their bias. And Consistent spawns is something I think is the most important for balanced and structured game play.

 

I think wreckage also calls for major changes, as point 2 and the pathing/routes to it are atrocious. Not to mention the direct sight to point 3 and the over all cramped nature of the map.

 

Origin imo needs similar treatment with point 2 being so cramped and spammy, while providing a vantage point to practically poop all over the remaining lower points.


Edited by Massive_Assailant_Stingray, 07 May 2015 - 09:23 PM.


#12
Lioot

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Bunker is obviously the best map, its set in a nice cold place when its not actually cold.

 

There is also a nice amount of snow and some rocks to hide behind



#13
Flifang

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I feel like origin is made even smaller by how easy it is for any mech to get from point a to point b by both being able to either fall or take a jump pad. Sometimes I wonder why anyone would ever take an a-class playing MA on origin just because the fact that you're fast won't help you get to a silo all that quicker once you're out and about and not having just respawned. Don't get me wrong I love all the maps but I dunno.

#14
Panzermanathod

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Bunker is fine. I wouldn't want it changed. Why not have just one plain wide open area?


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#15
reVelske

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Snipers and rocket fatsos would love that I'm sure.



#16
DeeRax

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Uh. Yass?

(I don't use hellfires)
(I have a reaper and I'm fuzzy bunnyng awful with it)


Edited by DeeRax, 07 May 2015 - 11:47 PM.

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#17
Grollourdo

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I love all the maps! Tho for some reasons I suvk at facility and there for I have developed a unsatisfying dislike for it XD

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#18
LaurenEmily

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I really like Origin.  So much vertical!

I really like it too, but imagine something twice as tall as origin with twice as much complexity. That's what i would really like to see added in hawken maps-wise.


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#19
reVelske

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You mean like... Uptown?



#20
TangledMantis

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I love all maps beside prosk. I think Hawken needs an fy_pool_day

 

I read OPs post and think to myself, "The Dev's need to make a completely bland giant flat map with no textures, no walls, completely symmetrical and only one type of mech is allowed" 

 

Asymmetrical wafare? You mean like real life? Reality? 

 

OP doesnt like games that dont spoon-feed his pleasure organs. The maps are fine. Maybe he/she can design us some maps to show us all how much better it can be.



#21
Panzermanathod

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Snipers and rocket fatsos would love that I'm sure.

It's not like the other maps didn't have characteristics that certain mechs could thrive more often on.


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#22
Call_Me_Ishmael

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I love all maps beside prosk. I think Hawken needs an fy_pool_day

 

I read OPs post and think to myself, "The Dev's need to make a completely bland giant flat map with no textures, no walls, completely symmetrical and only one type of mech is allowed" 

 

Asymmetrical wafare? You mean like real life? Reality? 

 

OP doesnt like games that dont spoon-feed his pleasure organs. The maps are fine. Maybe he/she can design us some maps to show us all how much better it can be.

 

 

Mass isn't a Hawken-only gamer.  He (note the pronoun) comes with skillz from other games.  I give his thoughts credit.


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#23
Badtings

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I like the hawken maps. Most are fun to play and they offer a variety of different variables (choke points, open areas, vertical, etc). 


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#24
Massive_Assailant_Stingray

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Yes I really enjoy a couple of the maps too. Facility and Last Eco as I noted. But I don't think they're objectively good, or well designed. I think the triangle maps lack balance and structure. And the mirrored maps, such as Frontline, Origin, and Wreckage, have very abusive lines of sight, and a major imbalance of the points.



#25
eth0

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*snip*
(except maybe Bunker, not sure how to fix it without major overhaul).

 

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#26
Nov8tr

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I enjoy most of the maps. Love wreckage. That said, I'd agree with a remake to "freshen" things up a bit for everyone including the old players. BUT yeah, new maps are going to have to be done. There really is no getting around that if they want new player retention. There are enough skilled players here even some with experience doing maps. They could help Reloaded along in that area. This is one of those areas where customer feedback should be listened to.


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#27
TangledMantis

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Mass isn't a Hawken-only gamer.  He (note the pronoun) comes with skillz from other games.  I give his thoughts credit.

If I was an avid fan of Lacrosse, Football, and Tennis, would complaining to my golfer friend that golf should be more like the other three have any merit? "I am a member of the NFL, you you better hear me out about this whole softball game you're all playing here."



#28
Call_Me_Ishmael

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If I was an avid fan of Lacrosse, Football, and Tennis, would complaining to my golfer friend that golf should be more like the other three have any merit? "I am a member of the NFL, you you better hear me out about this whole softball game you're all playing here."

 

 

Except that Mass showed up and was IMMEDIATELY a 2180+ player, and did VERY well in TPG competition.  Sort of like walking onto the USC football team as a freshman starter, after having learned basic athletic skills playing baseball.


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#29
Massive_Assailant_Stingray

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No worries friends. We are all entitled to our opinions. What I have laid out here are my opinions on what I think would lead to more balanced and structured game play. If you disagree with any of my points I would like to hear your reasoning.

 

It doesn't have to be about who has what credentials, or where we came from. We are all just hawken players.



#30
Call_Me_Ishmael

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Mass is humble, too.

 

I'm not. :)


Did I say Call Me Ishmael?

 

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#31
StubbornPuppet

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Release a community map editor and the problems solved.  Sure, not everyone will make good maps, but it become extremely evident, very fast, which players make great maps and those get a following and become standards in the rotations.


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To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#32
kasei

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Release a community map editor and the problems solved.  Sure, not everyone will make good maps, but it become extremely evident, very fast, which players make great maps and those get a following and become standards in the rotations.


I would just build physics playgrounds. Think Bazaar with jump pads everywhere.
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#33
DonCornelius

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Release a community map editor and the problems solved.  Sure, not everyone will make good maps, but it become extremely evident, very fast, which players make great maps and those get a following and become standards in the rotations.

excellent suggestion. i know of quite a few games, from the last millenium even, that are still relavent because of a map editor.



#34
Massive_Assailant_Stingray

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Release a community map editor and the problems solved.  Sure, not everyone will make good maps, but it become extremely evident, very fast, which players make great maps and those get a following and become standards in the rotations.

 

Custom map support is huge for a game. Players can make competitive maps, silly fun maps, practice maps, people could make maps to cater specifically toward some of the community "custom" games people play at events. Gives players a large amount of freedom, and a greater sense of community contribution.

 

I highly support the idea.



#35
n3onfx

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Release a community map editor and the problems solved.  Sure, not everyone will make good maps, but it become extremely evident, very fast, which players make great maps and those get a following and become standards in the rotations.

 

There's good ways to do this, you can hold a contest with map makers, select a few internally (eliminate the ones that are obviously bad/have glaring issues) and make a server that rotates the selected maps. Then have the community vote for the one they like the most after a month or two and bam, here's you new map that people enjoy playing.

 

Making a map editor is not a simple task though, no idea if the one Hawken uses has been customized or not. If it has, it's not that simple to release. And if it will happen, it's still a long time off.


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#36
Zuurkern

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Custom map support is huge for a game. Players can make competitive maps, silly fun maps, practice maps, people could make maps to cater specifically toward some of the community "custom" games people play at events. Gives players a large amount of freedom, and a greater sense of community contribution.

 

I highly support the idea.

 

If this becomes a thing I am so getting back into level design. Also because I love the Unreal 3 engine.

 

By the way, very good analysis. It all makes a lot of sense now, actually.



#37
TerasCell

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Bunker needs to have a bottom underground level. There are large round structures with flat walls already, just open those doors and let us invade. A small coffee shop with cute baristas would definitely be an improvement too.

 

Bazaar needs to have the smaller walled off section removed, and have the larger section copied and flipped over to fill that space, with some building rearrangements for diversity. The wall still provides a barrier, but doesn't give one side more advantage than the other.

 

 

 

 

I want a map that is basically a big vertical tube with ramps and jump pads and a giant open space in the center going all the way up and down.



#38
bacon_avenger

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Bunker needs to have a bottom underground level. There are large round structures with flat walls already, just open those doors and let us invade. A small coffee shop with cute baristas would definitely be an improvement too.

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#39
Grollourdo

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NIGHT MAPS!!!!!
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#40
Pelanthoris

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I'm by no means into competitive play and I always find very symmetric maps somehow unimmersive. Like your doing sports instead of warfare. They also tend to be a tad too clean. In terms of TDM, I've always held Prosk map close to my heart. Has just the right amount of vertical. We need some more gritty back on Hawken.


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