77 replies to this topic

[System64]

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Edited by System64, 28 May 2015 - 07:09 PM.

[System64]

Tiggs locked the thread I originally posted this in.

Here's something that will silence anybody who thinks the grinding is not a problem:

As you can see, I got 1076 HC. That may sound substantial, but if you look at the full detail of the battle, it isn't.

Now, let's do some math. I got 1076 HC, and two achievements that got me 500 HC. I also won the match, which got me another 30. If you take 530 away from 1076, I would have got 546. If I lost at wave 25, that's how much I would have got, and it's pretty ï¿½ucking hard to win BD. You CAN NOT say that is okay. The private achievement can only be earned once, and those two brawler achievements should have got me HC, but they didn't (they didn't even give me star points for ï¿½ucks sake).

 

Also, if you notice, the game didn't reward me for play time either, whereas every other gamemode, even co op TDM, does. You know why? Adhesive knew that BD rounds always last between half an hour to an hour, so they decided to flip us off and remove the time bonus. BD only rewards you based on the wave you reached (and if you complete all waves, which rarely happens).

 

Here's some more math: for every ten minutes of gameplay, you are awarded 120 HC. Times that by four (40 minutes) and you get 480 HC. Add another 60 HC (5 minutes) and you've got 540. Add another three minutes, and you get an estimate of 583.

So, add that to 546 and you get an estimated 1129 HC. Even if that was the base HC, it would still be quite low. Add 530 to that, and I would have got 1659 HC (if I was awarded for play time), which still wouldn't have been as much as I should have got. What should be done, is that either the HC gain is based on more factors (kills, assists ETC.), or double/triple the default gain.

Don't even ï¿½ucking think about mentioning HC boosts (or ANYTHING to do with MC), because that doesn't give people enough either.

 

Now, if you still think that the grinding is not a problem, this is all I can say to you:

Edited by ??�?�؃??, 29 May 2015 - 10:42 PM.

[reVelske]

Help me out here, so your point is because Co-Op BD doesn't quite give as much HC as other mode, the grind is excessive? This will, and I quote, "silence anybody who thinks the grinding is not a problem"?

 

10/10 logic.

[System64]

No, it's showing how the grind is ridiculous, and I'm just using BD as a great example. Other modes have similar the same issues, but BD is the worst.

 

20/10 to you for not seeing the point.

 

Don't degenerate this into a flame thread, please.

Edited by ??�?�؃??, 29 May 2015 - 11:01 PM.

[reVelske]

Don't "grind" in BD then? If there are better options? Why take the supposedly worst mode to play for HC gain as some kind of valid example in proving said "grind" is horrendous in its entirety? If you ARE playing for HC ie. grinding, wouldn't it then be logical to play better HC-yielding mode? We all want bucket load of HC for everything thing we do, and BD could certainly get a bump in incentives beyond pretty little emblems to attract more players, but to really expect every mode available to yield equally fantastic HC reward may be a tad unrealistic, especially a 4 players vs AI that isn't even offering much challenge to a lot of the veteran players.

 

And nobody is flaming nobody, god forbid people have opposing opinions. Man, interwebs people these days.

Edited by reVelske, 29 May 2015 - 11:09 PM.

[System64]

 

What should be done, is that either the HC gain is based on more factors (kills, assists ETC.), or double/triple the default gain.

This should go for every mode, not just BD. I'm also warning people not to degenerate it into flaming, didn't say that you were :).

Edited by ??�?�؃??, 29 May 2015 - 11:11 PM.

[reVelske]

Wouldn't the former effect a "the rich get richer etc" scenario especially at lower level? Where the smurfs and high-MMR-people-who-snuck-into-lower-MMR-games simply stomp over others for better HC? Wouldn't that give people more incentive to join low MMR games because hey, fuzzy bunny challenges, we play Hawken for HC and stomp baddies, right?

 

Again, slightly more frequent HC/Exp multiplier would suffice, or rather, at the frequency we've been getting atm, which is like one every couple weeks or something.

 

This non-issue has been debated to death, leave it be until Reloaded actually decides to rework it, IF they have any intention to, anything that needs to be said has already been said.

Edited by reVelske, 29 May 2015 - 11:22 PM.

[System64]

Regarding MMR; it's pretty simple, just make it so that there are automated restrictions, where if your MMR is too low compared to other people, you cant join, and then do the same with high MMR players, so "noob" players go in "noob" matches and "elite" players go in "elite" matches. I'm not labeling anyone here, im just giving a crude example of how it could work. At the moment we have this often-ignored three star skill level display. It doesn't mean much, but it's at least trying to tell you that there are far more experienced players on the respective server.

 

For the time being, HC could be returned to service awards, and for all non-HC awards people have earned, that balance should be applied to their account.

 

And it is an issue.

Edited by ??�?�؃??, 29 May 2015 - 11:34 PM.

[reVelske]

Regarding MMR; it's pretty simple, just make it so that there are automated restrictions, where if your MMR is too low compared to other people, you cant join, and then do the same with high MMR players, so "noob" players go in "noob" matches and "elite" players go in "elite" matches. I'm not labeling anyone here, im just giving a crude example of how it could work.

 

You are literally describing how the current MMR system intended to work, but there will unfortunately always be loopholes. Tightening to MMR restriction will make it harder for some people to find games, prevent people to join friend's game will piss off a lot of people who wish to play together regardless of their MMR difference. There's simply no good end-all-be-all solution.

 

I'm sorry it's an issue for you, but it's not for me and many others who can approach a F2P game with the correct frame of mind. If you really cannot deal with the urge of asbolutely wanting everything a F2P game can offer in a short (un)realistic amount of time, then you are going to have a bad time.

[System64]

I don't expect to get a fortune from one match. But what we're getting at the moment is basically scum. You get the same amount of HC regardless of how well you play, it shouldn't be like that. ?hitty players should be awarded less HC and the good, hard-working players should be awarded more (again, not labeling anyone), instead of everyone getting the same.

 

And it may not be an issue for you, but I'm assuming you're in that little minority of in game currency millionaires. You're not looking into the point of view of the main player base.

Edited by ??�?�؃??, 30 May 2015 - 12:14 AM.

[reVelske]

As someone with a day job and can only play 2 hours at most on a weekday evening (if any at all), I count myself amongst the casual average player.

 

And better player get rewarded more than others? Mostly inconsequential depending on the difference. If it's a big enough reward to incentivize "winning", you'll get more people quitting matches because they got a team that is simply incapable of winning. Playing for the sole purpose of winning shouldn't be something promoted and encouraged by the game itself IMHO.

 

On that subject, there was something else discussed to death prior to the collapse of Adhesive on the old forum: Room retention. People should have an incentive to STAY in a particular room even if their team is losing, so, players should be rewarded for staying for the entire duration/most part of the match right to the end, and add even more bonus if they stay in a room past the initial match. This suggestion was very well agreed on back then and it's something the game desperately needs to solve both the issue of "QQ NOT ENOUGH HC" and "QUITTERS ARE RUINING MY GAME".

Edited by reVelske, 30 May 2015 - 06:57 AM.

[System64]

People that leave because their teams are losing are still an issue to this day, and they don't seem to realize that leaving forfeits all rewards. Ragequitters always will be around, and they just need to learn that forfeiting games also forfeits rewards, which would discourage people from leaving. As for the subject of bad vs good players, maybe simply make it so that the HC gained at the moment is the MINIMUM all players are guaranteed to get, so even someone who gets no kills (dare I say no assists either) and constantly dies gets 150 if they lose (and 170 if they win), etc.

 

Or... You know what? If somebody DOES leave, whether it's for good reasons or simply raging, make it so that you still get earnings, but just not as much as if you had did a full match. This is another reason Robocraft has one of the best models out there.

Edited by ??�?�؃??, 30 May 2015 - 12:48 AM.

[o0m9]

I just want to point out that one of the 'achievements' you listed on your really long HC gain analysis thingy was a daily win bonus, which can be earned once a day from each mode. 

 

Also:

 

People that leave because their teams are losing are still an issue to this day, and they don't seem to realize that leaving forfeits all rewards. Ragequitters always will be around, and they just need to learn that forfeiting games also forfeits rewards, which would discourage people from leaving.

The game already tells you this. Every time you leave a game you're asked "Are you sure? Leaving will forfeit all HC earned this match!" 

 

As for the subject of bad vs good players, maybe simply make it so that the HC gained at the moment is the MINIMUM all players are guaranteed to get, so even someone who gets no kills (dare I say no assists either) and constantly dies gets 150 if they lose (and 170 if they win), etc. 

 The game also does something very similar to this already. HC is rewarded by playtime, not performance. Performance nets you additional XP. 

[Silverfire]

Instead of sounding angry and insulting in the OP how about reducing the vulgarity and maybe I'll take you not as angry and inflammatory. You say not to flame yet you flame those who don't think grinding is a problem? I don't get that logic.

As for the grind it can always be better but it's not terrible compared to so many more F2P games. Everything in the world could be fixed up though, not to say you're wrong. I want the game to give players more HC but not so much that everything is unlocked too fast.

Edited by Silverfire, 30 May 2015 - 11:37 AM.

[System64]

I just want to point out that one of the 'achievements' you listed on your really long HC gain analysis thingy was a daily win bonus, which can be earned once a day from each mode. 

Yeah I know, but I'm focusing on the co op BD. Who can be bothered to do this with BD every day?

 

Every time you leave a game you're asked "Are you sure? Leaving will forfeit all HC earned this match!" 

I know this too, but the problem is that people never pay any attention to it. Maybe if they made it bigger (or something to get attention) people would actually not leave and continue to play.

 

HC is rewarded by playtime, not performance. Performance nets you additional XP. 

That's the whole problem with it! It should be based on performance along with playtime, but it isn't! What I'm saying is that somebody that does little to nothing for their team should get what is given at the moment, while the hardworking players are the ones that should be getting more.

Edited by ??�?�؃??, 30 May 2015 - 05:28 PM.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

Guys the fact that there are people (and I mean a lot) who complain about the grind in the game, there HAS to be something wrong.  Now, remember that the vets from the old days (Alpha, Closed Beta, Ascension, and a little pre-Steam) had a bit of rewards from the achievements which helped with the grind.  

 

Most of those vets are rolling in HC because they've not much use for it now.  It's the struggling ones and the newbies that are still having a hard time (aka most of the people in Hawken).  Something needs to be done with the economy.

Edited by h????????????????????????????????i??, 30 May 2015 - 05:31 PM.

[System64]

Guys the fact that there are people (and I mean a lot) who complain about the grind in the game, there HAS to be something wrong.  Now, remember that the vets from the old days (Alpha, Closed Beta, Ascension, and a little pre-Steam) had a bit of rewards from the achievements which helped with the grind.  

 

Most of those vets are rolling in HC because they've not much use for it now.  It's the struggling ones and the newbies that are still having a hard time (aka most of the people in Hawken).  Something needs to be done with the economy.

^THIS!!!

 

Oh, and nice signature by the way ^v^

Edited by ??�?�؃??, 30 May 2015 - 05:32 PM.

[Silverfire]

HC awards for certain achievements need to return, and adding a HC bonus every 5 levels or so (maybe like 5k per 5 levels, can obviously be adjusted for economy) would be nice.  

[System64]

Instead of sounding angry and insulting in the OP how about reducing the vulgarity and maybe I'll take you not as angry and inflammatory. You say not to flame yet you flame those who don't think grinding is a problem? I don't get that logic.

As for the grind it can always be better but it's not terrible compared to so many more F2P games. Everything in the world could be fixed up though, not to say you're wrong. I want the game to give players more HC but not so much that everything is unlocked too fast.

Right... removed that one ï¿½uck. Also, If I sound angry, it's with good reason, because I am simply tired of how ?hitty our earnings are. This grind is the one thing that I am "angry and inflammatory" about. My OP wasn't even a flame to begin with, and I never really have in this forum, it's not like I swear for no good reason. Anyway, please don't de-rail this topic, anyone.

 

Now, regarding what you said about the grind, I sympathize with you. It does need to be improved, but we just need to find the amount that isn't too much or too little. Hawken simply has the worst model out of all the F2P games I play (no, I don't play LoL, and I don't understand how it gets so many #1 titles with the model it has), where Robocraft has the best, simply because its based on performance.

Edited by ??�?�؃??, 30 May 2015 - 05:43 PM.

[System64]

bump again because some guy just made a ?hitload of posts

[reVelske]

Guys the fact that there are people (and I mean a lot) who complain about the grind in the game, there HAS to be something wrong.

 

A lot of people voted for Bush.

 

A lot of people voted for Cameron.

 

A lot of people voted for Abbott.

 

A lot of people are very very silly, to put it mildly. Having a significant number of people sharing a similar opinion does not necessarily make it valid.

 

 

bump again because some guy just made a ?hitload of posts

 

And please kindly stop doing that. "Bump" posts are NOT a good forum practice and serve literally no purpose whatsoever, especially done on threads that aren't even a day old.

[System64]

Well, in this case, the lot of people complaining about the grind IS valid, because it actually IS bad. Why are you bringing politics into this anyway?

 

And this thread was made over two weeks ago, not a day. I am going to keep bumping it unless I get at least one reply from Reloaded personnel. It needs to be noticed.

Edited by ??�?�؃??, 31 May 2015 - 04:42 AM.

[BIsmuthZornisse]

Surely, Reloaded will hire someone to read/respond to all the suggestions threads. I hope they wouldn't ignore a thread because it's too old.

[Silverfire]

It's been noted I'm fairly sure, there's no need for a reply IMO, or bumping incessantly. No reply from Reloaded staff != no notice. They're looking at everything really. Talked to josh yesterday.

There was an anti-bump rule on the old forums and I can't wait to see that return.

Edited by Silverfire, 31 May 2015 - 05:04 AM.

[System64]

Surely, Reloaded will hire someone to read/respond to all the suggestions threads. I hope they wouldn't ignore a thread because it's too old.

pfft

[stinkinglamb44]

I think the current model is fine, I play regularly and found I never felt frustrated by the grind time.

[System64]

They're looking at everything really. Talked to josh yesterday.

K, so he did see my thread?

 

Well, that's good enough I suppose, but I'd still like more voices 

[reVelske]

Well, in this case, the lot of people complaining about the grind IS valid, because it actually IS bad. Why are you bringing politics into this anyway?

 

Are you seriously THAT dense? NOBODY used "lots of people think grind is okay" as some form of defense for that idea, because that would be ridiculous. The point is show that "lots of people" is NOT some kind of valid reasoning to base an argument on, being a popular idea does not make something "right" or "valid". This is not about bringing politics into this, it is simply an example.

 

The fact that I have to word these out makes me feel like my IQ is deteriorating at a rapid rate, am I being trolled? I can't tell.

[System64]

Are you seriously THAT dense? NOBODY used "lots of people think grind is okay" as some form of defense for that idea, because that would be ridiculous. The point is show that "lots of people" is NOT some kind of valid reasoning to base an argument on, being a popular idea does not make something "right" or "valid". This is not about bringing politics into this, it is simply an example.

 

 h????????????????????????????????i??, on 31 May 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

Guys the fact that there are people (and I mean a lot) who complain about the grind in the game, there HAS to be something wrong.  Now, remember that the vets from the old days (Alpha, Closed Beta, Ascension, and a little pre-Steam) had a bit of rewards from the achievements which helped with the grind.  

 

Most of those vets are rolling in HC because they've not much use for it now.  It's the struggling ones and the newbies that are still having a hard time (aka most of the people in Hawken).  Something needs to be done with the economy.

Either way, the grind is still screwed at the moment, regardless of opinions or majorities/minorities.

Edited by ??�?�؃??, 31 May 2015 - 05:37 AM.

[reVelske]

 

Either way, the grind is still screwed at the moment, regardless of opinions or majorities/minorities.

 

Yes, because screw debating a matter, IT'S MY OPINION AND NOTHING ELSE MATTER, WHO NEEDS REASONING TO BACK AN OPINION.

[System64]

Yes, because screw debating a matter, IT'S MY OPINION AND NOTHING ELSE MATTER, WHO NEEDS REASONING TO BACK AN OPINION.

-_-

That's not my approach. Did I say that I know I'm right?

Oh screw it. When I said regardless, that also meant MY own opinion. In debating, you are one of only three people in this thread who said that the grind is okay, everyone else said it isn't.

Edited by ??�?�؃??, 31 May 2015 - 05:47 AM.

[Silverfire]

I'm 110% okay with the grind, but could it be improved? Sure, but I really don't think it's that bad.

[System64]

Well, do you think it should be based on performance?

[Silverfire]

Preferably a mix of performance and time spent, don't want the not-so-great folk to feel left out of the HC fun, but should reward the high performers in a match. I've never ever minded the grind, given my gamer origins in grindy RPGs like Maplestory and a few other RTS type games, bu t I can see where things can get better. The grind is good for folks, just could be eased a tad with some more HC.

[Anichkov3]

Oh my God. You are so lazy? Answer the question: why do you go to the game? Play? Then play.

You want to play on a new mech that is different from the very first? Use test-drive mechs. Your whining in the spirit - "I do not like to play them, etc.". You can not sit down for the first time a mech and immediately become a master of the game on it.

About prices in credits Hawken - all of them in order. If you want to buy - lay up. The game is not much content. You may want to lower the price in credits Meteor (two or three times), but it is certainly better to do not now (later).

[System64]

Sigh... first bad change. The team balancer bonus has been reduced. Before it was 200 HC, now it's 50 HC. What the ï¿½uck is going on, guys?

[System64]

Preferably a mix of performance and time spent, don't want the not-so-great folk to feel left out of the HC fun, but should reward the high performers in a match.

Exact point that I am trying to make.

[Silverfire]

Easy with the language and quit trying to bypass the forum censor, jeez. It's there for a reason.

As for the change, it was either an accident or josh is running some sort of experiment about team switching and the HC bonus associated with it. He's done that with the 1 hour MC reward and seeing how people react accordingly. Will we see a drop in voluntary switches with lowered HC bonus or will we not see a difference at all? That data should show us what people play for in matches - HC or the wins.