21 replies to this topic

[AxionOperandi]

So this occurred to me as random insights tend to do while on long road bike rides�

Perhaps this has been brought up before (it probably has) but I think part of the problem of Hakwn not retaining new players for the long haul has to do with the difficulty of learning the intricacies and becoming proficient with Hawkens harder to use mechs and weapons. I mean most of what is in Hawken looks quite simple and looks like it should be easy to use but the reality is you�ve really got to stick with a lot this stuff for some time to become any semblance of good and a lot of players are simply just not going to invest the time to do this with some of these mechs and weapons.

The Raider for example in terms of function is pretty simple but if you don�t pick your engagements properly and manage your shots you will soon be in deep trouble. The Grenadier couldn�t really be simpler, just chuck some grenades around but until you become really familiar with how those grenades are going to behave and how to properly lead targets the mech is pretty much useless. Those are just too examples but I think it applies to many of the mechs and weapons in the game.

I think a lot of players are trying out many of the new players and getting frustrated and leaving with the conclusion that most of the mechs suck. I think Hawken needs more mechs and weapons that are easier to use along the lines of the Assualt that new players can quickly comes to grips with and become proficient at getting kills in a relatively short period of time. Of course it has to different enough than what we have to justify existing and to that I have no super clever ideas but therein would lie the challenge I suppose�

Edited by AxionOperandi, 16 June 2015 - 10:48 PM.

[CrimsonKaim]

Actually, Hawken is damn easy to learn. Especially for a shooter since it is slower than games like Combat arms, Battlefield, etc.

 

The Raider, I find for myself, is harder to learn but this is probably because I am used to A-mechs.

 

 

 

But the learning curve for Hawken is not "hard to learn" it is more like "easy to learn and hard to master". After the easy to learn part, people leave because they experience a break down in progress and success since they are now at the hard to master part. "Hard to learn and hard to master" is the best options because it consumes much time to even get into the game while maintaining a straight line of learning instead of a retarded curve. 

 

"Easy to learn and easy to master" would make Hawken into a mini game with 3D graphics, nothing more.

 

 

But whatever, who is going to do something about ANYTHING in the near future?

 

Even with new devs, we have to wait, not for days, not for weeks, maybe for months, but years would be the better guess.

[AxionOperandi]

I disagree with pretty much all of that. And I'm not talking about all of Hawken easier. I own most of the mechs now so the harder ones to use are the ones I'm looking forward to using but a new player is unlikely to be happy with their new Grenadier in my opinion and that goes for a lot of the mechs.

But in general I think non-hit scan projectile weapons with slow rate of fire and some with slow projectile speed are inherently hard to use for most players. This has bore out true for most people I've introduced to the game. I think Hawken needs more B-class mechs with play mechanics are similar to the Scout and Reaper (think more ambush than sniper) but without those mechs punishing small amounts of armor.

And really?, "years"? Have you ever worked on a large project? Being prudent and acting in a calculated manor takes time patience and from the outside looks like nothing is happening (which is not at all the case) until things can start happening and then they can continue to happen on regular and routine schedule.

*Edit*

Oh, and also the movement system that well take for granted. Learning when to dodge, when not to, how to chain boosts and dodge maneuvers, not flying in the air excessively in combat (these things can fly, I should be flying right?) all adds quite bit of depth over your typical shooter and all of those mechanics apply bit differently for each mech.

Edited by AxionOperandi, 16 June 2015 - 11:19 PM.

[CrimsonKaim]

Well, I myself wanted to buy a Rocketeer first when I was new, but then I played Infil and bought this instead, I loved the Heat cannon due to its skill demand and because it is a non-hitscan weapon.

 

Maybe players don't stay in the game because Hawken has something like hitscan? Or it is too easy but they have to grind for a new mech. And besides test drives, they only have this boring Assault in their garage.

 

 

If players are complaining about projectile weapons being harder to use, then I have no hope for them. Hitscan is a dumb feature that takes alot of skill demand away. So if they are used to only hitscan wepaons, then they are forced to stay there if they want to avoid some disadvantage. Limiting the choices of mechs and weapons significantly. 

 

Whatever, projectile weapons are the basic, hitscan is just noob friendly and in my eyes intendet to support beginners because of Hawken's fast movement gameplay. However, if a player decides to stay at hitscan weapons because of its ease of use, then they will probably never really be able to compete with good players as a good GL shot is still better than a Flak shot.

 

So much for hitscan, I say we should remove it as it doesn't teach new players how to use weapons properly.

 

 

And no, I have never worked on a large project, but I know how long it takes. However, it doesn't matter how long it takes, Hawken is in its beta phase now for years already. Hawken has not got much time left until next gen games come out. Wait some more years and Hawken is considered to be an old game and so no real competetor for new games, unless it has some unique and stunning feature which attracts palyers but it obviously doesn't have that right now.

 

 

In short (my restaurant example): "If you order your meal in a restaurant, you don't care what is happening behind the scenes, you want your meal to be delivered in time with a good quality as you payed for it. Even if the kitchen is burning, your meal has to be delivered in time wit ha good quality."

 

If your meal is served cold or in a bad quality, you will not return to that restaurant. It's simple like that. Competition, nothing else. 

[SparkyJJC]

Of course, the thread with the title insulting my low attention span is the one full of long posts ;-;

[DerMax]

Hawken is not retaining players because it is not a game � it is a stump of a game that lacks some basic functionality and balance that gamers take for granted in regular FPS games in 2015.

[Grollourdo]

We need a better tutorial... We need laila tobteach us more! XD





Edit: well, to the new players

Edited by Grollourdo, 17 June 2015 - 01:11 AM.

[hoghead]

Yea alot more Laila!

Edited by hoghead, 24 June 2015 - 04:03 AM.

[coldform]

NOBODY here should feel that bad about attention spans. I have the worst case of ADD ever. There are times I can't even complete my sentences.

Q:hOw may coldforms does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A:wanna go ride a bike?

[-Tj-]

I agree that Hawken takes a bit longer to get used to than most other FPS I've played. The reason for this is that the mechs don't move in the typical FPS way other than WASD, firing weapons with mouse buttons, using items with special keys, and maybe Space to "jump." Using Shift to dodge was unique to me when I first started playing, and it took me a fair amount of time to get used to dodging with it instead of double tapping a direction. The 180� spin always threw me for a loop (hurr...) before I got used to it, and now I wish other shooters did the same thing.

 

The weapon learning curve doesn't seem much different from other FPS, though. Most FPS have a variety of weapons that you just have to get used to. That part I think is fine.

 

Where I think Hawken loses players is on at least three points:

- Grind length

- Opponent difficulty

- Unclear descriptions of difficulty

 

The grind has been discussed many times. Some players find it way too long, others think it's just fine. I think it's a bit on the longer side, but the devs have to make money somewhere.

 

The opponent difficulty seems to range from "oh-God-why-aren't-you-even-moving-while-you-shoot-me???" to "wtf-how-did-you-even-kill-me-I-didn't-even-see-you." Players who are brand new can sometimes get pit against top-level players, which isn't necessarily bad, but isn't really good, either. Some will take it as a learning experience, others will hate the game forever.

 

The unclear difficulty descriptions between the server browser and lack of difficulty descriptions on mechs could throw players off. I recall difficulty stars being shown on mechs in the market at some point in time, but they're gone now. I think they should make a comeback in some form so players have an idea what they're getting into before committing their hard-earned cash or HC. Difficulty ratings on servers in the browser (the 3 star system) doesn't make much sense, either.

[EM1O]

TL/DR

[AxionOperandi]

Whatever, projectile weapons are the basic, hitscan is just noob friendly and in my eyes intendet to support beginners because of Hawken's fast movement gameplay. However, if a player decides to stay at hitscan weapons because of its ease of use, then they will probably never really be able to compete with good players as a good GL shot is still better than a Flak shot.

So much for hitscan, I say we should remove it as it doesn't teach new players how to use weapons properly.

No, I agree �hit scan� was not really what I wanted to say. But more weapons that are easy to pickup and grasp; Assault Rifle, SMG, Vulcan, Hawkins, AM-SAR, Flack Cannon; fast projectile speed, relatively quick rate of fire, ect. The movement is already adds a degree complexity that makes the game hard to become proficient and the tricky weapons just compound that problem.

There is a fair amount of weapons already in the ones I listed that could be rolled into new mech chassis (preferably B Class) but I think there could be some new ones cooked up. There is no quick burst round rifle shot for example, something could be done there. These types of weapons may not be what you or I really want from the game at this point but it would probably be what new players are looking for

The unclear difficulty descriptions between the server browser and lack of difficulty descriptions on mechs could throw players off. I recall difficulty stars being shown on mechs in the market at some point in time, but they're gone now. I think they should make a comeback in some form so players have an idea what they're getting into before committing their hard-earned cash or HC. Difficulty ratings on servers in the browser (the 3 star system) doesn't make much sense, either.

Yeah, I remember the star rating as well, something like that needs to comeback along with a better tutorial as mentioned above.

[CrimsonKaim]

No, I agree �hit scan� was not really what I wanted to say. But more weapons that are easy to pickup and grasp; Assault Rifle, SMG, Vulcan, Hawkins, AM-SAR, Flack Cannon; fast projectile speed, relatively quick rate of fire, ect. The movement is already adds a degree complexity that makes the game hard to become proficient and the tricky weapons just compound that problem.

There is a fair amount of weapons already in the ones I listed that could be rolled into new mech chassis (preferably B Class) but I think there could be some new ones cooked up. There is no quick burst round rifle shot for example, something could be done there. These types of weapons may not be what you or I really want from the game at this point but it would probably be what new players are looking for


 

 

So far so good (btw, every weapon you just mentioned is hitscan. Hitscan = damage delivered before projectiles (visually) arrive at the destination) but what you suggest will have like 0 influence at all as we don't have any devs right now. Well we do have but we don't have a team that can actually make the ideas of the community come true. Our current devs are only able to make slight and minor chanegs for example increasing turret damage, server and matchmaking changes, etc. so there we can only suggest something in order to expect reactions and so archieving something.

 

Adding content is always a good thing but, we don't have the labour resource at this moment. :/

[StubbornPuppet]

What?

[Flifang]

I'm fairly certain the reason large content updates or balance fixes haven't been done is because there are more pressing matters, like making sure you can financially support and recruit a full dev team. Oh and there's the fact that if an "oopsie" is made they rather it be something that will not completely break things, as well as be easy to revert back to the way it was prior easily.

[AxionOperandi]

So far so good (btw, every weapon you just mentioned is hitscan. Hitscan = damage delivered before projectiles (visually) arrive at the destination) but what you suggest will have like 0 influence at all as we don't have any devs right now. Well we do have but we don't have a team that can actually make the ideas of the community come true. Our current devs are only able to make slight and minor chanegs for example increasing turret damage, server and matchmaking changes, etc. so there we can only suggest something in order to expect reactions and so archieving something.

Adding content is always a good thing but, we don't have the labour resource at this moment. :/

Really? I thought I read somewhere that the only hitscan weapon was the Sabot Rifle?..... but, you get the idea anyway.

There should be developers now. They�ve had technical lead position filled from the guy that worked on Evolve for awhile and supposedly they�ve been interviewing/hiring new programmers and artists. That means they are still a way off from doing anything significant but they are ramping up. I�m sure they could �change� a lot more now if they wanted to but honestly to what end?, and it would be at the risk of causing chaos.

What they need to do is tweak and refine what they have now as it mostly �works� and build it out with fresh content and really begin to see what works and what doesn�t.
 

I'm fairly certain the reason large content updates or balance fixes haven't been done is because there are more pressing matters, like making sure you can financially support and recruit a full dev team. Oh and there's the fact that if an "oopsie" is made they rather it be something that will not completely break things, as well as be easy to revert back to the way it was prior easily.

Making sure they can support a dev team would have been done before they purchased the game, at least to the extent that is possible. The biggest thing is simply understanding what they have and how it works as thoroughly as possible and that takes time as does building a dev team and planning what to do with it and I think that�s kinda where we are now. The landscape has been observed, resources have been gathered now on to figuring out what to make with them.

Edited by AxionOperandi, 17 June 2015 - 10:57 PM.

[Pelanthoris]

I've stated this before and still will. Part of the problem is that people move away from assault (easy peasy training mech) before they understand core game mechanics. You shouldn't only know how your mech works, but also how all the enemy mechs work! Not to mention mechs of team mates to be able to play team game effectively. This could be prevented easily by *dumm-dum-dumm* making mechs more expensive (or level-limit for buying them), but this would increase the dreaded grind. I'm still confident that this community has loads of willing people to teach and train all the tricks for new players. There just isn't ways to do it effectively ingame, you should go to forums and find so event or whatnot to train on private servers.

 

(In the unforeseeable future) there should be some kind of mentor system in order to join experienced players with newer ones in a non-competive manner. There should be a predefined set of training programs with assigned roles and tasks for mentor(s) and student(s). Like tow dodging duels in small arena. Noobs being able to jump into mentors cockpit to see how things are done. Dodging hellfires, aiming grenades, bursting tows midair, you name it. Mentor should somehow be qualified to teach certain exercises and rewarded with something (like unique camos or (holo)taunts) for mentoring.

 

FakeName, sometimes I feel you have mixed up difficulty and pace a bit. Fast pace actually sets physical limitations for some players as not everyone has lightning reflexes (including me). If game is difficult in this way, it turns into a sport. And it's true that hawken isn't the most demanding game this way, but on the other hand it has tons of things to learn for a new player. Learn as in learning mechanics of the game, how stuff works and what one should do.

 

My attention span stops here, I haven't read the post (or the thread) again so it might be a bit fuzzed up.

[hoghead]

.

Edited by hoghead, 21 June 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Flifang]

Most of my friends that have picked up hawken just kinda got bored of it. They played a lot of Co-op but not pubs and I even ran into one of them in one of their first matches. I recognized their usual call sign and proceeded to play a psychic and troll him for a minute. Keep in mind this was far before reloaded even came into the picture. Players were getting placed in the wrong spot even then. There isn't enough incentive to keep playing because if you're not sure about a game why would you want to master a mech? They wanted the next mech. It was always the next mech for every one of my friends. Until they found what they really liked they were really bored.

[SatelliteJack]

Alright, here's my thought process.

 

The weapons are really easy to learn. Most every shooter has a stuff like rocket launchers and grenade launchers, so travel time and arch are relatively commonly accepted phenomenon.

 

The monvement is unique, but not outright difficult. WASD to walk, shift to "sprint," and space to "jump." Dodging and 180s take a little getting used to, but not enough to make someone hate the game.

 

So, here we are, with two relatively accessible sets of concepts. Now mush them together. That's where problems happen. When you start getting into the combination of fluid movement and high accuracy, it seems most folks have their resolve and interest in the game broken. Most shooters either have a run-and-gun philosophy, or encourage strategic movement. HAWKEN demands both, while still wanting pilots to hit the broad side of a barn. That seems to sap most of the fun out of it for people. My two cents.

Edited by SatelliteJack, 18 June 2015 - 07:03 PM.

[AxionOperandi]

Alright, here's my thought process.
 
The weapons are really easy to learn. Most every shooter has a stuff like rocket launchers and grenade launchers, so travel time and arch are relatively commonly accepted phenomenon.
 
The monvement is unique, but not outright difficult. WASD to walk, shift to "sprint," and space to "jump." Dodging and 180s take a little getting used to, but not enough to make someone hate the game.

I disagree. While they are all familiar concepts for veteran FPS players a lot of the weapons perform in fairly unique and odd ways that make them hard to use, its part of Hawkens charm but its also a issue for new players. Grenades are very slow and bounce around for extended and rather random pattern, the Corsair-KLA either has a very short range or is rather hard to aim, Flack Cannon is very slow and punishing if you miss A class mechs, ect, ect. I could go on but I won't point being none of these are easy to pickup and get a good handle on in say 1 hour of play, I sucked with all of those for quite sometime before I figured out how to start getting kills in a reliable manner.

And again this isn't likely to be an issue for anyone on these forums but I think its something to take into account for the fresh player experience especially someone that isn't a FPS veteran.

Edited by AxionOperandi, 22 June 2015 - 11:55 AM.

[Bad_BennyAK]

The learning curve makes the game great!   If I want an "Interactive Movie",  I"ll play COD, or Wolfenstein, or some pretty game, with premade paths, items placed carefully in my way as if Santa Clause himself were dropping me a bloody violent present!   Heck,  for that matter,  give me some Duke Nukem, or Doom!  

 

But Hawken makes you think as well as react.    Best. Game. Ever.   Just add more content.  And I want a National Groundhog's Day badge. :P