25 replies to this topic

[Dawn_of_Ash]

I understand that the general Hawken community considers the Predator, and possibly everything about it, is in a pretty good place right now and for the majority of that view, I agree. But I do have one concern that has been irking me for quite some time now with the mech's secondary - the EOC-Predator. I'll give an example:

 

I'm in my Predator, minding my own business, walking around in my cloak, stalking that poor little A-Class that is in low health and goes down to heal when they meet a full clip of a Breacher in...them (phew, dodged a bullet on that one) where they explode and I grin triumphantly before thier entire teams leaps on me and I do my epic dodges and fails that evidently leads my burning corpse and some other A-Class tea-bagging/taunting. But that's beside the point. What I'm talking about when I play the Predator in it's main, likely created, role - trap laying. Now I know that there are some people who can pull off placing a field of mines and leading someone into said mines therefor creating a good trap and gaining one kill. And I admire those people - although I cannot understand how you do it. When I'm laying a trap, this is what I and everyone around me hears:

 

Pang! Pang! Pang! Pang! Pang! Pang!

 

The amount of times that I have been ambushed when trying to set a trap is actually unbelievable - seriously, not something that should be happening. That sound makes making a trap unbelievably hard for people to make - unless they are against newer players who do not have a clue what that sound means. Couple this with the ability for enemies to destroy it, the giant marker that appears on the map when you do go to lay a trap, and it's bright lights on the pucks, makes for these traps to be hard to accomplish - especially in dire situations where you just want to make a quick trap and run! Now, I can understand if it's just me and how I play Pred, but I really do not feel that the Predator is currently not in a dedicated trap-laying mech - more like the trap-laying is secondary to it's "wall hax" ability.

 

So I suggest three different ways that I feel could balance this out a bit:

 

1. Lower the pitch of the weapon when you fire a puck - the current high-pitch pang of firing an EOC-Predator is quite easily distinguishable on the Hawken battlefield and is only further emphasized when you are by yourself and trying to set up a trap when you are ambushed when trying to set up the trap. I was thinking something similar, if not the same, as the EOC-Repeater.

2. Decrease the volume of the weapon - simple theory; the less noise you make, less people can hear it and for less distance.

3. Remove the sound-marker on the map - likely idea that would make the most difference in game, but likely the most realistic of the three ideas I have mentioned. I wouldn't mind putting a fat suppressor muzzle thing on top of my EOC-Pred - maybe decrease travel speed of the pucks to counter this?

 

So, thoughts on this idea? As far as stats go, I have no intention of going close to that because it's fairly balanced as it is. 

[DerMax]

Yes.

[LaurenEmily]

Yup.

[Meraple]

Why do you consider trap-laying the Predator's main role?

 

 

3. Remove the sound-marker on the map - likely idea that would make the most difference in game, but likely the most realistic of the three ideas I have mentioned. I wouldn't mind putting a fat suppressor muzzle thing on top of my EOC-Pred - maybe decrease travel speed of the pucks to counter this?

Decreasing the travel speed will make it worse at almost everything other than laying traps.

 

 

Also, if you're suggesting a decrease in volume for the EOC-P, the Breacher could possibly use one as well.

Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 21 June 2015 - 05:58 AM.

[BIsmuthZornisse]

I had an idea to improve it:

 

EOC Predator

If the firing button is held, the mines should come out much faster than if tapped in the"rhythm" of the current firing rate, but each mine fired this way after the first has increasingly more heat, causing overheat if you started at 0% heat and place all 8 mines this way (and dont use your left weapon in the mean time). The weapon should also not show up on the minimap unless rapidfired.

This should increase the speed of setting up traps while hopefully still discouraging an "assault" playstyle. Maybe now the predator can contribute better to taking points, but right now it takes a little too long to set up an effective minecluster.(maybe i'm just playing it wrong. it's not like i'm good at this game)

Basically, speeding up the minelaying.

 

Why do you consider trap-laying the Predator's main role?

Because the unchangeable weapon uses mines, presumably.

[Meraple]

Because the unchangeable weapon uses mines, presumably.

It's not optimal by any means to lay traps as your primary playstyle in Predator.

 

Putting down mines here and there at specific areas before you do other things, sure.

But devoting most of your time to baiting people into your trap is simply not too effective.

Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 21 June 2015 - 06:19 AM.

[Crosau]

I agree with ya. I have been on both ends of the exchange and it is painfully obvious what they are doing or that they can hear you when you are. Predator is stealth so make its signature weapon stealth as well. 

[CraftyDus]

uh huh

[Chickin]

It was suggested a month ,or so, ago.

Lower the volume of stealth pred walking and weapon audios.

[ticklemyiguana]

I mean sure. I don't think lowering the volume on them would hurt, but meraple is quite right. Those mines are a much more deadly weapon in open combat than as a trap. They're literally the only weapon that you can manually detonate and get a hit on someone long after you've missed. You can do some excellent corner and defensive play with a "light" version of what you're describing, and hitting someone directly can do quite a bit of damage. Far more often, I turn and get a kill on a predator who's been walking around with an uncharged breached and decides that right behind me is the right to to make the weapon go FVVVWWWWWT!!

[thirtysix]

2 cents from average player.

 

Uses: flanking and alpha striking when needed. Predator has become my go to mech to bust up death balls. But heat becomes an issue in CQC for my play style VS the sustained weapon mechs and this is problematic. That 1st spike with the breacher has to land or there's hell to pay. I'll EMP class C to gain that little bit of advantage. Less noise all around we be beneficial. The only place I lay traps is on jump pads, it's a wake up call to those not watching the radar :)

Edited by thirtysix, 22 June 2015 - 08:47 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

As long as this jupiter splash radius isn't gone, nothing else is important. 

 

Even flying mechs are hit by EOCP mines from the ground ...

 

EDIT: Now a longer text. The sound is alright. Good Predators will not get spotted.

Thing is, I ask myself why are you heard? Because you fuzzy bunnyng stay at your team as a lurker. If you stay at your team, the enemy team will most likely be near as well as the fight is there.

 

If you want this extra amount of safety, you asacrifice it (obviously) for stealth. Predator is in my eyes a pure solo mech or in case it is built for teams: harras, area denial, finishing of targets. 

 

The following is what the Pred is not:

 

- Fighter (close - mid combat with direct fire)

- Tank (obviously)

- Sniper (except for the pathetic breacher campers)

 

 

Now if you stay far away enoug hfrom your team (and the enemy team as well) you shouldn't have a problem. But do it. Stay away from teams. The 8-mine-trap should not be build up that close to the enemy team. Instead, use it as a safe spot, a place where you run and you will be the bait yourself in this case.

 

 

Now, for a lower pitch, I agree, but please no long wavelenghts. Deep sounds simply don't fit on Predator.

 

 

Oh, and now what the Predator actually is:

 

- Flanker

- Passive control unit

 

 

The Pred can deny strategic important points (best example: AA on Siege), do it from a safe distance or BEFORE the actual fight happens.

Additionally, the flanking potential is huge due to two reasons. First, it can see what's going on without being seen. That means it can choose a situation while other mechs have to deal with the situation they get into. Unless they have scanners ... secondly, because of the ability to choose situations, it can play so damn safe because it can see the dangers and eventually choose to not engage.

 

 

The conclusion: No stealth in teams. Where would you plant a bomb? In a public area with many witnesses or in some backyard, maybe next to a fuel tank?

High pitch, fine, why not. 

But don't confuse the Predator with other mechs. The Predator is a passive mech, no direct fighter or anything similar as stated above.

 

 

PS: Fix the mine immortality. Mines are so hard to destroy, even wit hdirect hits they sometimes stay alive. But srsly, one TOW, GL, whatever should blow up the mine and every other mine that is in its splash radius. Same should apply for the EOCR.

Edited by FakeName, 21 June 2015 - 11:34 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

 Predator is stealth so make its signature weapon stealth as well. 

 

Justified with what? Where is the tradeoff then?

Then I want an internal that decreases my heat signature -> Invisible for Pred vision.

[Draigun]

If your location is correct, you can place traps without them knowing you're there. The sound is loud, but it doesn't travel as far as other weapons, such as the Point-D Vulcan.

 

The only change that should happen with EOC-Predator is an increase in travel speed.

Edited by Draigun, 21 June 2015 - 11:37 AM.

[Flifang]

The reason pred mines can hit you in the air is because the explosion radius extends from the colored center of the mine itself. Like a column if you will. I'm pretty sure this is to make it so a predator won't have over half it's potential damage output neutered by a space bar happy person. If you are complaining about the mines blast range, maybe you should fly higher, or not you know... Not make it piss-easy to hit you by going in the air.

Edited by Flifang, 21 June 2015 - 01:56 PM.

[CrimsonKaim]

There is only one flat splash radius value, it not only goes vertical but also horizontal and the sad thing is that the damage drop of is low as well. Even a TOW is harder to hit.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

 

Why do you consider trap-laying the Predator's main role?

 

I consider trap-laying a Predator's intended role - the role that Adhesive wanted the Predator to take before they went bankrupt. 

 

My example:

 

In the video, although there is an emphasis on burst damage, they do mention where to place mines and stuff. Likely not the strongest thing about the Predator, but unless there is going to be a G2 Predator that is a dedicated mine-layer, I think that this is what Adhesive had in mind. 

 

I still at least want my either tone or sound decrease because at least for realistic-sake, who likes to make as much noise as possible when making a trap? The sound is just ridiculously loud for it's purpose. The EOC-R has already shown us that a softer sound can be made for laying mines.

[CrimsonKaim]

Well, if you believe in ADH then I have bad news for you ...

 

 

If it stays with the lower pitch, I am fine. But still, I don't get why the sound is a problem because traps are supposed to be planted outside danger and not in the middle of an ongoing fight.

Edited by FakeName, 14 July 2015 - 11:50 AM.

[Sokram]

EOC have UNLIMITED RANGE and no arcing.
 So you just hide somwhere and place "traps" miles away. Noone will ever hear you.

 

Though I would really like if EOC Pred had 2 rails instead of barrel and launched mines like "frisbee".   Silently and with arc.  Coz i find it lame that placing mines can be so....long range.

[StubbornPuppet]

I'll agree that the mines do make a ridiculously loud sound.  That could be toned down and still serve it's purpose.

 

I still have a problem with the Predator being OP in the hands of certain players, EOC or Breacher.  The problem is that they know how to do something... B.S.-ish that I cannot figure out:  Get 1-hit kills on a B-Class (or A-Class).

 

Here's the thing - I have become pretty darn good at spotting and avoiding the pucks/mines... but I can admit that I've come around corners carelessly and been caught off guard.  However, when I am walking across an open floor, which I can see clearly, and then I suddenly just go from full health to dead with one "bang" and a Pred steps out from the shadows, I'm confused.  When this same Pred takes me from full to dead with one bang while I'm flying in open air, I'm suspicious.  I don't even hear the mines/pucks being fired - no "pwing, pwing, pwing" or "thwa-thwa-thwa-thump"... just silence, then BANG.

 

I've made no hackusations and I've been very patient and polite, but none of these players will tell me how they do it.  And I've never found a way to 1-hit-kill any B-Class mech with any weapon combo on a Predator.  I can get them way, way down with one very carefully planned, carefully executed, extremely lucky trap and good aiming, but never full-to-dead.

 

Anyone care to share how this is done?

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 24 June 2015 - 12:29 PM.

[CrimsonKaim]

Maybe there were more than one Predator? ;D Look at the "Assisted by" window when you get killed. The strongest burst can oneshot every A-class.

Everything above needs to either walk in a Pred-Trap or in a deathball  Y versus X while Y>X.

[Sigil_]

According to the Salty Stats, a EOC-P Mine does 60 Damage. A full eight mine trap is 480, that kills every A-Class and the Sharpshooter. Add in a charged Breacher for another 100 and you instagib every B-Class save the G2-Assault.

 

Then you can follow up with a Breacher Flak shot for a maximum of 144, and throw in an H.E. Charge for another 65.

 

Total that up and you get 789 Damage in about two seconds. That instagibs everything except the Brawler, and then you could just peg him with another EOC-P puck and finish him off.

 

It's an unrealistic and ideal scenario, but the Predator can put out some scary burst damage with the right setup.

[StubbornPuppet]

Maybe there were more than one Predator? ;D Look at the "Assisted by" window when you get killed. The strongest burst can oneshot every A-class.

Everything above needs to either walk in a Pred-Trap or in a deathball  Y versus X while Y>X.

Thanks, but I am well aware of the assist window.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is "How can one Predator get a 1-shot kill on a B-Class mech while it is in the open air?"  (Not near a wall or any objects.)  It's not like there's 8 invisible mines hanging out in the air and I just happened to fly through them while they're detonating.  And there is no sound of them being fired.  It's like these Preds are able to unleash all 8 pucks at the same time and detonate them in mid-air while also firing an HE Charge and a fully charged breacher shot - timed so they all hit me at exactly the same time.

 

I just want to learn it.

[Flifang]

I recall getting a player that jumped from the bridge on uptown with a very unconventional place for my mines. I don't know if that was you but the name sounds familiar now on that circumstance. Where I placed my mines made no logical sense and the fact the person chose that path down near that wall was one of the luckiest things I have done in this gam so far.

[CrimsonKaim]

Thanks, but I am well aware of the assist window.

What I'm trying to figure out is "How can one Predator get a 1-shot kill on a B-Class mech while it is in the open air?" (Not near a wall or any objects.) It's not like there's 8 invisible mines hanging out in the air and I just happened to fly through them while they're detonating. And there is no sound of them being fired. It's like these Preds are able to unleash all 8 pucks at the same time and detonate them in mid-air while also firing an HE Charge and a fully charged breacher shot - timed so they all hit me at exactly the same time.

I just want to learn it.

Pred mines have a Jupiter seized splash radius. You don't even have to be on the map to get damaged.

:P

But no sound and no trap in midair and getting oneshot is either a hack or self damage.

Edited by FakeName, 25 June 2015 - 10:21 PM.

[Void_Runner]

I would be happy if mines made less noise when they landed as well. The most effective places to mine are point behind in-combat enemys. The noise the mines make on impact though make this difficult. That is were most of the kills are however when laying traps.

 

Just a side note.

The eoc repeater does not work well for this though because if it has a time limit in it and detonates the entire trap before it can do anything.