36 replies to this topic

[Aregon]

So I am a fairly generic Star Wars nerd. My favourite period gotta be the clone wars, since I am a poor sucker for the armour of the clone troopers. However one thing has always bugged me.

 

I can understand why the droids fight in lines without much use of cover, as probably their AI is more designed to work as a horde. Singular they are useless, but with support from all aspects of their force they suddenly become a fighting machine in a literal sense. Their armour, at lest for the basic droids, was never really much to brag of, which explains their high numbers and simplistic loadout.

 

Why is it so then that the clones, based on human DNA, never seemed to understand that there is this pretty amazing thing called cover, that will decrease your chance of dying by an immense amount? Sure we see these elite forces using cover when fighting against the tin boxes, but why doesn`t the average clones do this? Their armour is pretty much a glorified t-shirt from what I have seen, serving pretty badly as protection against direct shots, which is what you get hit by most likely if you walk in a straight line towards the enemy. This has always pissed me off a little since why the bloody hell do you waste such extreme amounts of resources, the time spent creating the clones, the armour, the implants, just all of it.

 

 

I mean just look at this. Geonosis is a rock, and they decide standing on your knees in the middle of the gun-line of the enemy is better than hiding, because

Spoiler

[ticklemyiguana]

I don't know but I also have no idea why droids still need to use handheld radios in a universe where you can communicate between star systems fuzzy bunnyng faster than light.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 22 October 2015 - 11:49 AM.

[Silverfire]

That particular episode was about distracting the Geonosians and the droid army to thinking they could achieve a victory.  A full frontal assault without cover is tempting for an enemy to attack.  Luminara said it was a risky move.  Remember, they weren't supposed to win that battle, just distract while Ahsoka and Barriss snuck inside.

Edited by Silverfire, 22 October 2015 - 12:06 PM.

[DeeRax]

I always wondered the same.

 

 

 

 

 

Though there was a time in real human history where dudes would purposely line up in front of each other in an open field and then shoot at each other. So...

[Hyginos]

Nothing makes sense in star wars combat when held up to practical scrutiny except maybe the concept of an autonomous army.

[ticklemyiguana]

That particular episode was about distracting the Geonosians and the droid army to thinking they could achieve a victory.  A full frontal assault without cover is tempting for an enemy to attack.  Luminara said it was a risky move.  Remember, they weren't supposed to win that battle, just distract while Ahsoka and Barriss snuck inside.

fuzzy bunnyng silver.

[Aregon]

That particular episode was about distracting the Geonosians and the droid army to thinking they could achieve a victory.  A full frontal assault without cover is tempting for an enemy to attack.  Luminara said it was a risky move.  Remember, they weren't supposed to win that battle, just distract while Ahsoka and Barriss snuck inside.

The picture was more of a reference to the scrubs that doesn`t know Star Wars, however I still stand on my view. I find it highly illogical that a primary tactic of the Republic to think cover is heresy and still send clones out in war with armour equivalent of a paper hat.

 

I always wondered the same.

 

 

 

 

 

Though there was a time in real human history where dudes would purposely line up in front of each other in an open field and then shoot at each other. So...

 

Still, that was couple hundred years ago, and was very based on old war tactics. If we look at modern equipment (which we can find equal things of in the SW universe), it makes very much sense to not stand up and go all bullet sponge. So why doesn`t this apply to a universe where technology and even state of mind has surpassed ours by 100`s of years?

[Silverfire]

The picture was more of a reference to the scrubs that doesn`t know Star Wars, however I still stand on my view. I find it highly illogical that a primary tactic of the Republic to think cover is heresy and still send clones out in war with armour equivalent of a paper hat.

 

 

Still, that was couple hundred years ago, and was very based on old war tactics. If we look at modern equipment (which we can find equal things of in the SW universe), it makes very much sense to not stand up and go all bullet sponge. So why doesn`t this apply to a universe where technology and even state of mind has surpassed ours by 100`s of years?

 

In reference to the armor:

1. Mass production of high quality armor is expensive and time consuming.  In reference to the Clone Wars series, the reason why the Separatists did not mass produce the commando droids is because they were expensive and time consuming to make even if they were far superior to regular B1 and B2 battle droids.  I would assume the same applies to clones and their armor.  Katarn armor for the Clone commandos was expensive to make but was far better at stopping direct blaster bolts.  It comes down to costs as always.  

2. The armor is good enough to at least protect the limbs and from kinetic weapons but from regular blasters, it's a kill shot.  Clone/Storm trooper armor has always been like that.  There's a good explanation of storm trooper armor in some the Expanded Universe books, and I would think it applies to clone armor as well.  

 

In reference to the tactics:

1. It's science fiction and that kind of stuff and tactics looks good on TV.

2. Droids do it with sheer number of force and it quite honestly works.  Clones, while not as many as droids, still can apply the same effect, but with better aim and life expectancy.

3. It's cool on TV.

4. Sometimes there is no cover, so crouching at least makes you a smaller target.

[ticklemyiguana]

In reference to the armor:

1. Mass production of high quality armor is expensive and time consuming.  In reference to the Clone Wars series, the reason why the Separatists did not mass produce the commando droids is because they were expensive and time consuming to make even if they were far superior to regular B1 and B2 battle droids.  I would assume the same applies to clones and their armor.  Katarn armor for the Clone commandos was expensive to make but was far better at stopping direct blaster bolts.  It comes down to costs as always.  

Silver.

 

Silver.

 

We're talking about a civilization that raises BILLIONS OF fuzzy bunnyNG CLONES FOR THE EXPLICIT PURPOSE OF KILLING fuzzy bunny. That is also expensive and time consuming. For whatever reason, the expensive and time consuming argument that applies to modern and less modern warfare does not seem to fly in this scenario.

[Silverfire]

Silver.

 

Silver.

 

We're talking about a civilization that raises BILLIONS OF fuzzy bunnyNG CLONES FOR THE EXPLICIT PURPOSE OF KILLING fuzzy bunny. That is also expensive and time consuming. For whatever reason, the expensive and time consuming argument that applies to modern and less modern warfare does not seem to fly in this scenario.

 

Expensive and time consuming that much of the Senate did not know that such army was being created.  I guess it's like the waste of money that just disappears in most governments.

 

It also could be availability of resources, or lack thereof.

[Hyginos]

 

The picture was more of a reference to the scrubs that doesn`t know Star Wars, however I still stand on my view. I find it highly illogical that a primary tactic of the Republic to think cover is heresy and still send clones out in war with armour equivalent of a paper hat.

 

 

Still, that was couple hundred years ago, and was very based on old war tactics. If we look at modern equipment (which we can find equal things of in the SW universe), it makes very much sense to not stand up and go all bullet sponge. So why doesn`t this apply to a universe where technology and even state of mind has surpassed ours by 100`s of years?

 

Same universe where the technology exists to mass produce combat drones but some fool decides cloning some random bounty hunter a bajillion times is a better option. Today, in 2015 on earth, it is already feasible to enforce air superiority almost entirely by proxy. Using the same resources to build a bajillion drones that don't need to be fed, sleep, or communicate verbally is an inherently better investment.

 

If you wanted to take over a planet in the Star Wars universe, especially one that has a mostly barren surface like geonosis, I think a 90% of the battle would be fought in space. Once you get control of surrounding space any combat becomes trivial, as the attacker now has a monopoly on orbital bombardment. By then it's just clean up.

[ticklemyiguana]

 

If you wanted to take over a planet in the Star Wars universe, especially one that has a mostly barren surface like geonosis, I think a 90% of the battle would be fought in space. Once you get control of surrounding space any combat becomes trivial, as the attacker now has a monopoly on orbital bombardment. By then it's just clean up.

 

why didn't i think of this

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 22 October 2015 - 01:43 PM.

[thedark20]

They always can make more clones. KEEP THEY RAINING LADS

[OdinTheWise]

armies more or less just ran at each other while shooting for the better part of the 20th century. care to explain that one?

 

also clones are far superior to droids in the fact that clones can develop their own strategies and think for them selves. clones have advanced cognitive abilities on creativity, improvisation and stratagem compared to a droid that will just stand there confused untill you give it an order.  

Edited by OdinTheWise, 22 October 2015 - 01:37 PM.

[SandSpider2]

Blame George Lucas for making crappy films

[comic_sans]

Childrens' movies.

Edited by cringe_smells, 22 October 2015 - 02:44 PM.

[JackVandal]

armies more or less just ran at each other while shooting for the better part of the 20th century. care to explain that one?

 

also clones are far superior to droids in the fact that clones can develop their own strategies and think for them selves. clones have advanced cognitive abilities on creativity, improvisation and stratagem compared to a droid that will just stand there confused untill you give it an order.  

i assume its similar issue, tactics had not caught up with the tech, and soldiers followed orders, particularly in the SW universe where the clones are unable to disobey orders initially.

[Elite_is_salty]

Childrens' movies.

QFT

[Alt_O_Holic]

A REAL advanced space faring civilization would not need a army. They would decimate you from space till you submitted. If they had the ability to travel from one galaxy to another, their energy systems would be capable of destroying entire cities with some type of energy based weapon. Civilizations that were not up to that level of technology would have zero hope of defending themselves. The "war" would be over in minutes. Yeah, yeah I know, reality sucks. LOL But that given, I love Star Wars. Seen them all from day one of release. I play SWTOR still. And with the new DLC, playing hardcore again.

[OdinTheWise]

A REAL advanced space faring civilization would not need a army. They would decimate you from space till you submitted. If they had the ability to travel from one galaxy to another, their energy systems would be capable of destroying entire cities with some type of energy based weapon. Civilizations that were not up to that level of technology would have zero hope of defending themselves. The "war" would be over in minutes. Yeah, yeah I know, reality sucks. LOL But that given, I love Star Wars. Seen them all from day one of release. I play SWTOR still. And with the new DLC, playing hardcore again.

but their are very advanced methods of shielding from orbital bombardment in star wars making your argument moot. 

[phed]

as far as star wars goes... i don't consider the depiction of those battles in those movies as canon.  that dude is a lazy director that always lets fuzzy bunny fly for technical reasons and then patches it in with later releases.  

 

those battles always stank of shitty cgi and animation, i think actually drawing a cartoon would of looked better and conveyed a more realistic to story battle.  as it was animated they were limited by the technology available at the time and the number of animators it would take to make that scene believable in any reasonable amount of time.  

 

could the pull it off now...  kinda?  avatar kinda felt like a cartoon with actors underneath it.

[Shoutaxeror]

They would use more cover if clones training included some Hawken gaming.

[Shoutaxeror]

A REAL advanced space faring civilization would not need a army. They would decimate you from space till you submitted. If they had the ability to travel from one galaxy to another, their energy systems would be capable of destroying entire cities with some type of energy based weapon. Civilizations that were not up to that level of technology would have zero hope of defending themselves. The "war" would be over in minutes. Yeah, yeah I know, reality sucks.

I tempt you to read Dune, it's a bit more deep in here.

[ticklemyiguana]

I tempt you to read Dune, it's a bit more deep in here.

Probably my favorite book of all time.

[KarlSchlag]

They are very clever... they use the Jedis as cover.

[Silverfire]

A REAL advanced space faring civilization would not need a army. They would decimate you from space till you submitted. If they had the ability to travel from one galaxy to another, their energy systems would be capable of destroying entire cities with some type of energy based weapon. Civilizations that were not up to that level of technology would have zero hope of defending themselves. The "war" would be over in minutes. Yeah, yeah I know, reality sucks. LOL But that given, I love Star Wars. Seen them all from day one of release. I play SWTOR still. And with the new DLC, playing hardcore again.

 

Empire Strikes Back.

 

Reason why the Star Destroyers couldn't just orbital bombardment the Rebels to oblivion is because of the shield generator that created a shield around Echo Base and planetary ion cannon that could disable Star Destroyers, both of which were in the Rebels' possession, which is why the ground assault was necessary.

 

And they're not traveling galaxy to galaxy.  They're all in one galaxy, just many different star systems and planets within a single galaxy. However, it doesn't mean extra-galactic threats don't exist.  The Yuuzhan Vong were an extra-galactic species that almost conquered the Star Wars galaxy in the Expanded Universe.  One of my more favorite conflicts in the EU, apart from Thrawn and Darth Krayt.

[Hyginos]

shield generator that created a shield around Echo Base

 

And only echo base. Glass the rest of the planet and see how long they can hold out before they run out of food, fuel, and ammunition.

 

As far as I'm concerned that works just like sieging a medieval castle. Walls stop arrows, not hunger.

 

EDIT: A single ion cannon only protects one hemisphere anyway.

Edited by Hyginos, 23 October 2015 - 06:38 AM.

[Silverfire]

And only echo base. Glass the rest of the planet and see how long they can hold out before they run out of food, fuel, and ammunition.

 

As far as I'm concerned that works just like sieging a medieval castle. Walls stop arrows, not hunger.

 

EDIT: A single ion cannon only protects one hemisphere anyway.

 

And a long drawn out siege makes for a great movie, right?  Just a few Star Destroyers sitting in space while the Rebels bide their time?

 

The Empire could wait it out, but movie bad guys usually are quite impatient.  Which is why they could just destroy the shield generator easily with a couple of AT-ATs and then flush them out afterwards with superior numbers and armor.

Edited by Silverfire, 23 October 2015 - 06:45 AM.

[Hyginos]

And a long drawn out siege makes for a great movie, right?  Just a few Star Destroyers sitting in space while the Rebels bide their time?

 

Right, but this thread is about why star wars combat is absurd, not about what make a good movie.

 

The Empire could wait it out, but movie bad guys usually are quite impatient.  Which is why they could just destroy the shield generator easily with a couple of AT-ATs and then flush them out afterwards with superior numbers and armor.

 

I don't remember the movies that well, but it seems totally reasonable to assume they did both. The Empire surely has the resources to siege a base from space and send in a few poorly designed walking tanks at the same time.

[EM1O]

read a book a loooong time ago about a rebellion on a Moon base, where they achieved total capitulation by the earthers, using rail cannons launching really big rocks at earth targets.

Technology being flashy and boomy and all that, it made Lucas et al mucho dinero. However, i think the Bugs got it right in Starship Troopers: ballistic bombardment using asteroids. sure made for a bad day in Rio.

that and those killer farts from the Cannon Bugs.

where else by hollywood can you come up with completely ludicrous comedy chit like this, and make it a box office smash?

[Nov8tr]

I tempt you to read Dune, it's a bit more deep in here.

LOL, a little late. I've read every book in the series many times including some offshoots. You'd be surprised how many there are. Love them, Herbert was brilliant at details. Nice to see others enjoy them as well. 

 

And Odin, as I stated, any civiliztion NOT up to their standards would have no choice. IF they were of that level then it would depend on who was ahead in technology at the time of the engagement.

 

Yeah in the end I don't think real space battles are going to be anything like we currently think. Remember, we are doing good to even get off the rock and get back. Let alone travel to another galaxy and do battle with anything, LOL.

[ticklemyiguana]

read a book a loooong time ago about a rebellion on a Moon base, where they achieved total capitulation by the earthers, using rail cannons launching really big rocks at earth targets.

Technology being flashy and boomy and all that, it made Lucas et al mucho dinero. However, i think the Bugs got it right in Starship Troopers: ballistic bombardment using asteroids. sure made for a bad day in Rio.

that and those killer farts from the Cannon Bugs.

where else by hollywood can you come up with completely ludicrous comedy chit like this, and make it a box office smash?

That book is The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, by the same author as Starship Troopers, Robert Heinlein.

 

It is also a fantastic book.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 23 October 2015 - 08:15 PM.

[Nov8tr]

Heinlein another top notch scifi writer. Loved reading so many of his books. If you want to see what a good example of real space battles I'd suggest another series, Honor Harrington by David Weber. Brilliantly written, In my opinion the most realistic of modern warfare and space warfare. But I also greatly enjoy for ground battle warefare, you would be hard pressed to beat the Warhammer series. God there must be over 30 of them overall now. That is some major planet scale kick ass scifi warfare. They would beat the Empire like a cheap date, LOL. Let loose the God Machines.

Edited by Nov8tr, 23 October 2015 - 09:12 PM.

[Shoutaxeror]

LOL, a little late. I've read every book in the series many times including some offshoots. You'd be surprised how many there are. Love them, Herbert was brilliant at details. Nice to see others enjoy them as well. 

Am I ?

 

But anyway, nice to see a star wars thread in the internet drifting to literature.

[Aregon]

What I have learnt from this thread is that Silverfire is a nerd and that the armies are fighting the way they do because it looks good.

[Silverfire]

Wat

[EM1O]

That book is The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, by the same author as Starship Troopers, Robert Heinlein.

 

It is also a fantastic book.

Yes!

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

i think i read that thing about 40 years ago...or so