27 replies to this topic

[Morquedeas]

So while we're picking over what little we know of the new Hawken, I thought I'd make this post about some things I noticed from the e3 footage that I haven't seen anyone mention yet.

 

We can infer from the footage what the general controls will be and what effects this might have on the new version of the game.

 

The video clearly shows (in ps4 controller terms) x is ability, o is repair, and triangle and square are items.  Without taking too much of a leap we could assume that the L2 and R2 are primary and secondary fire.  L1 and R1 and probably dodge and jump.  I'd guess that the right stick button is weapon utility but who knows.  Start could be menu and select could be scoreboard.

 

This leaves spot enemy, request help, holotaunt, mech emote, interact, and the 6 co-op bot destruction buttons to the d-pad and left stick button.  I'd probably but the first 4 on the d-pad myself and make interact on the left stick but who knows, maybe siege won't even be in the new release (I doubt co-op bot will be in its current form).

 

Most of this is speculation, and it doesn't really matter where on the controller most of these are for the purposes of discussion but I'm more interested in what functions might get cut because they don't fit on a controller.

 

The first thing you might notice is that I did not mention a third item, I'm guessing they are going to change the limit to 2 items per mech, possibly with a rework of the item system altogether.  This also coincides with what we're seeing on the website for each mech.  Hopefully we can still choose our items at the very least. This is still totally speculation but it seems plausible.

 

What do you guys think?  I'm sure I'm missing something.  Also you can kinda see the controller setup on the desk in the e3 footage videos but I can't read the diagram, maybe someone else can, or if you want to get crazy you can guess by word length or something.

[HubbaBubba9849]

The way I have my 360 controller set up is:

 

A: Ability

B: Mech emote

X: Use item

Y: Interact

LB/L1: Boost/Dodge

RB/R1: Jump

L3: Repair

R3: Weapon Utility

D-Up: Spot Enemy

D-Down: Request Assistance

D-Left/Right: Select item

Sticks and Triggers are obvious

 

Works well enough as long as you can use all four shoulder buttons at the same time.

[Hyginos]

The first thing you might notice is that I did not mention a third item, I'm guessing they are going to change the limit to 2 items per mech, possibly with a rework of the item system altogether.  This also coincides with what we're seeing on the website for each mech.  Hopefully we can still choose our items at the very least. This is still totally speculation but it seems plausible.

 
Could be one button cycles, one fires selected.
 

Our resident controller using milge uses the following settings (with back paddles) and he seems to do OK:
 

• Left shoulder, primary; right shoulder, secondary.

• Left trigger is actually another weapon utility, solely for SS, allowing me maintain more precise control over the thumbsticks, as I'm not "reaching" for the paddle on the back.

• Right trigger, use item. This allows you to go on your merry way while being able to "charge" your item. You can also slip your index finger over it in a jiffy while in battle, and if you're one of those people who can play with their middle and index fingers simultaneously without losing control of the thumbsticks, then you're taking it to another level.

• D-up, repair. Most of the time, it's not critical to move you mech moments before or after repairing, but it is vital to repair, so have it closest to the joystick.

• D-down, switch item. I don't want to switch items accidentally, so I keep it opposite of repair, keeping me from doing both at the same time.

• Left joystick, jump; right joystick, dodge modifier. They're both important functions, why not keep them under your thumbs when you're moving?

That about wraps it up. There's room for improvement, I'm sure, but it seems to me that it's going to come down to playstyle.

[Morquedeas]

While I considered the possibility of a cycling button, every mech on the site and in the gameplay videos having 2 items seemed to point in the other direction.  Further more, having 2 buttons for items and 1 for cycling seems like a waste since you'd only need 1 to use and 1 to cycle if there was a cycle button.

[XPloyt]

The co-op upgrades could easily be displayed in a choice wheel assigned to one button.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

i use x as my cycling button  but also use number keys when i gotta get out what i want fast

 

cant remember my point

Edited by Bastardo, 18 June 2016 - 05:36 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

There are literally dozens of ways a PS or Xbox controller can be configured to allow for each and every function that is available on the current PC version, without compromising.  The only deficit will be the age old argument over mouse aim vs. stick aim.  And so few console players seem to give a single s#!t about that... it's practically irrelevant unless a cross-platform competitive leaderboard is introduced.

[Superkamikazee]

I bounced back and forth, kb/m on the desktop, controller on the htpc. While kb/m was a bit better, controller was more than adequate even with the below average support for controller in game.

[CZeroFive]

Actually, it's more like this for controller setup:
 

 

 

It's actually the same as PC Hawken's default scheme, except with Boost/Dodge and Jump Thrust switched around. You can select 'Previous/Next Items' using the DPad, as well.

 

We're open to feedback on the controller scheme. Feel free to post your thoughts!

[HubbaBubba9849]

I know I'm going to be biased towards my own setup, and that controls will most likely be remappable anyway, but I'd really recommend setting the default repair button to something opposite of the camera controls so you can look around while repairing.

 

Check spoiler for my extended thoughts.

Spoiler

I prefer L3 to repair so that my right thumb is free for camera control. You can't move while repairing anyway, but if you have to move quickly, your thumb is already on the stick. This would avoid, for folks that use default controls, having to reach unnaturally for the right stick while holding B/O.

 

Also, Mech emote and Holo emote can be the same button. Tap = Mech emote / Hold = Holo emote

[Hyginos]

 

It's actually the same as PC Hawken's default scheme, except with Boost/Dodge and Jump Thrust switched around. You can select 'Previous/Next Items' using the DPad, as well.

 

We're open to feedback on the controller scheme. Feel free to post your thoughts!

 

After googling it seems like the big 3 console shooters (BF, COD, Halo) seem to like to put sprint on the left stick click. Was there a specifics design choice to put boost/dodge on L bumper instead or is it a matter of "ain't broke don't fix"?

 

Additionally, will there be button by button controller layout customization on console?

 

As for what I notice about the layout: How do I use item 3? It looks like I will need to take my thumb off of the look stick to fire dets/emps/HS/ism, so I would probably move them to either the stick buttons or the bumpers, then move enemy spot and weapon utility to the right button pad. Then I think spot enemy would likely go to the D pad and interact replace it on the button pad.

 

With that said I don't and won't play with a controller except to derp around on a friend's console for a few hours after release.

Edited by Hyginos, 24 June 2016 - 04:22 AM.

[Morquedeas]

Shout out to CZeroFive for providing the layout and dispelling any suspicions!

 

Layout looks pretty usable, there are only 2 changes I would suggest, swap enemy spotted and interact just to make things nice with both team communication buttons on the d-pad.  The other would be to have one of the item usage button be cycle items, for example have X be "deploy selected item" and Y be cycle items.

[HubbaBubba9849]

After googling it seems like the big 3 console shooters (BF, COD, Halo) seem to like to put sprint on the left stick click. Was there a specifics design choice to put boost/dodge on L bumper instead or is it a matter of "ain't broke don't fix"?

Because dodging requires inputting a direction while hitting the dodge button. Also, sprinting in COD is toggle-able while in Hawken you have to hold the boost button. Could you imagine having to click the stick while also holding a direction and doing that repeatedly or having to hold the stick down and forward to boost?

 

Of course, you can change it to that if you'd like.

[StubbornPuppet]

Coming from using a pretty similar controller scheme, I really think you ought to put the boost/dodge button on the left-stick clicker.  It's just natural there, especially when almost every FPS in the last 10 years has put "run" there.

[CZeroFive]

Coming from using a pretty similar controller scheme, I really think you ought to put the boost/dodge button on the left-stick clicker.  It's just natural there, especially when almost every FPS in the last 10 years has put "run" there.

 

We're definitely considering alternate control schemes. We'd want to 'do it right' in future updates - I personally would like to see every button rebind-able at some point for consoles. There is going to be a single control scheme at launch and we'll revisit it in a future update.

 

PC keyboard/mouse, however, will be rebind-able at launch as it is now. We won't force a control scheme on anyone for PCs and when we redesigned the UI, we wanted to keep all of that functionality intact. Consoles are a bit different as the bindings have to be stored 'on the profile' instead of 'on your local hard disk', so that's why functionality was cut initially and has a need to be moved 'to the cloud'.

[ThirdEyE]

After playing on my PS3 controller for a little bit tonight, I noticed a few quirks in the current controller setup.

 

1. Like Hubba said, having repair on the left side of the controller feels nicer so that you can look around while repairing.  This should be moved to the D-pad and the emotes could share a button.
2. Like Hyginos said, you can't use item 3, which is funny given that the current starter mech comes with 3 items.  There should be a general "Use item" button (X and Square) and a "Change item" button (Y and Triangle), or keep the current setup and replace "Repair" with "Use item 3".
3. The gamepad sensitivity in options seems to scale the entire range of motion for aim, so at lower sensitivities the turn rate cap is lower than at higher sensitivities.  This might just be a problem with my ghetto controller setup, but it's worth looking into.
4. Dodging is finnicky if performed while boosting.  Again, this might just be my controller, but if I try to dodge while boosting, I can't just move the stick to the side.  It seems like I need to center the stick and then move it to the side, or kind of slam it to the side from forward.  Either way it feels very clunky right now.

Other than that, the game seems to play just fine with a controller.  My biggest hurdle to overcome is simple familiarity with a controller for fps, since I've only used one for Rocket League and Dark Souls within the last 10 years or so...  I'll keep trying this week to see if I get better.

[dorobo]

[StubbornPuppet]

We're definitely considering alternate control schemes. We'd want to 'do it right' in future updates - I personally would like to see every button rebind-able at some point for consoles. There is going to be a single control scheme at launch and we'll revisit it in a future update.

 

I get that you folks had a date to meet and that other work was prioritized over controller bindings... but I think that only giving players one, single control scheme, which they have no choice but to use, is going to be a devastating blow for Hawken's success.

 

That's not me just trying to emphasize my own opinion on it or be overly critical - I've seen it happen.  A players first impression of a game is two-fold:  They will be looking at the graphics and experiencing the game through the controller.  One of the very first things every gamer does before playing a game is go to the control settings and try to put buttons where they want them.  And when a player cannot get comfortable with the controls pretty quickly, they get completely turned off and put the game down... and usually post some nasty reviews.

 

Doom recently made this mistake, but to a lesser degree.  They only provided 4 default control bindings... and it instantly caused an outrage.  The essence of the outrage was, "This is a AAA title game and you couldn't even bother to do something as elementary as custom control bindings?  I'm done with this game."  Yeah, that's pretty whiny... but if a player cannot interact with the game in a way that is intuitive and comfortable TO THEM, they won't play it.

 

So, I think that releasing this with only one controller binding option is going to do a lot of harm.  But, again, "I get it" - "schedules."

[XPloyt]

After playing on my PS3 controller for a little bit tonight, I noticed a few quirks in the current controller setup.

 

 

1. The gamepad sensitivity in options seems to scale the entire range of motion for aim, so at lower sensitivities the turn rate cap is lower than at higher sensitivities.  This might just be a problem with my ghetto controller setup, but it's worth looking into.
2. Dodging is finnicky if performed while boosting.  Again, this might just be my controller, but if I try to dodge while boosting, I can't just move the stick to the side.  It seems like I need to center the stick and then move it to the side, or kind of slam it to the side from forward.  Either way it feels very clunky right now.

Other than that, the game seems to play just fine with a controller.  My biggest hurdle to overcome is simple familiarity with a controller for fps, since I've only used one for Rocket League and Dark Souls within the last 10 years or so...  I'll keep trying this week to see if I get better.

 

Going lower than 340 decreases the turn rate. 340 is the threshold.

 

Which button is your boost modifier?

 

Try removing the deadzones on both sticks as well. You'd be pleasantly surprised to find that it helps.

[ThirdEyE]

Going lower than 340 decreases the turn rate. 340 is the threshold.

 

Which button is your boost modifier?

 

Try removing the deadzones on both sticks as well. You'd be pleasantly surprised to find that it helps.

340 seems super high to me, as pretty much any stick movement throws my aim around.  Even trying to barely move the stick results in less precision than a mouse by a huge margin.  Any way to adjust the sensitivity of the sticks to more linearly scale so that I only hit turn rate cap with my stick fully to the side?

 

I'm using the default button layout that CZeroFive posted for Playstation, just with the item button changes that I suggested so that I can use 3 items.  So far it feels alright, but since I'm not used to controller I don't have much to compare it to.  Any changes you would make to what has been posted?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by deadzones or how to remove them.  I'm also putting minimal effort into this test since it's kind of just for turds and giggles.

[Hyginos]

So I borrowed a proper Xbone controller and gave it a quick whirl. Found that having the boost and shoot commands right on top of each other made doing both at the same time very uncomfortable for me. When I pick up a controller I naturally put my index finders on the two triggers, but I found it was practically necessary to have my middle fingers on the triggers so I could have my indexes on the bumpers. This is mostly a quirk however and I think I could probably get over it with a few hours in.

 

I did find that it was pretty easy to replicate mobility maneuvers like L dodge, r dodge, skating, boost hoping, etc, so long as I didn't have to shoot during or between them, though the zone for executing a 180 instead of a dodge felt like it was the entire bottom hemisphere of the stick motion. This is probably the same thing ThirdEye described in that I found you need to be very deliberate with the stick motion to execute correctly.

[XPloyt]

340 seems super high to me, as pretty much any stick movement throws my aim around.  Even trying to barely move the stick results in less precision than a mouse by a huge margin.  Any way to adjust the sensitivity of the sticks to more linearly scale so that I only hit turn rate cap with my stick fully to the side?

 

I'm using the default button layout that CZeroFive posted for Playstation, just with the item button changes that I suggested so that I can use 3 items.  So far it feels alright, but since I'm not used to controller I don't have much to compare it to.  Any changes you would make to what has been posted?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by deadzones or how to remove them.  I'm also putting minimal effort into this test since it's kind of just for turds and giggles.

 

 

Deadzones are a range within the neutral position of the joysticks that are made void from creating input, or to prevent jitter, essentially.

 

There are deadzone values on the joysticks within the ini files. Change them to zero, and see how it affects your aim and movement. On the XB1 Elite, I haven't seen any drawbacks from doing this. You may also want to change your vertical movement from 80% to 100%.

 

I understand where you're coming from as far sensitivity goes. I complained about this on the old forums and no one batted an eye...well, I made a post regarding it, and only a few responded; those few didn't see any problems with it, yet it's still prevalent.

 

Have you ever messed with how slow it can move, just hitting input to make your aim move?  It takes a little focus to do. It moves incredibly slow, but would be nice if that range on the stick was stretched out a little bit. It's practically impossible to do in the heat of the moment.

 

Having it at 340 can be troublesome, with the Heat cannon for instance. For example, I started playing Hawken with the Infiltrator (after maxing out the CRT), and I believe I stuck around 120-180 - I was fairly accurate with my shots, but wasn't a threat when up-close. When I switched to SS, it was a double-edged sword: Do I want quick aim or do I want accurate aim?

 

I can't change the game, but I can change what I use.This is why I ultimately upgraded hardware, which included a few controllers. the XB1 Elite has been the best controller to me, and is currently what I use. I use the one-type convex joystick that comes with it (obviously), but, it also happens to be longer than the default sticks, and that's a nice little touch of improved accuracy.

 

It's hard for me to make suggestions on control schemes when I use back paddles. Because I use back paddles, I never have to touch abxy on the front of the controller, dynamically influencing which functions I want under my fingers on the back, which means I hardly have to take my thumbs off the sticks.

Edited by X-Ployt, 28 June 2016 - 11:09 PM.

[Kopra]

 

I did find that it was pretty easy to replicate mobility maneuvers like L dodge, r dodge, skating, boost hoping, etc, so long as I didn't have to shoot during or between them, though the zone for executing a 180 instead of a dodge felt like it was the entire bottom hemisphere of the stick motion. This is probably the same thing ThirdEye described in that I found you need to be very deliberate with the stick motion to execute correctly.

If this persists for the console release, I think it's going to be pretty unenjoyable to have a "forbidden zone".

[XPloyt]

If this persists for the console release, I think it's going to be pretty unenjoyable to have a "forbidden zone".

Are you guys suggesting that the range for doing a 180 should be bigger? But then you would run the risk of accidentally doing a 180 when you meant to dodge, if you were walking backwards even a little while moving to the side. Doing a 180 tends to be more of a unfavorable move in battle, so it feels just in making it a more deliberate move. Wouldn't be such a bad idea to allow for customization of thresholds for the boost modifier, but personally I would feel like that would be a low priority.

Thirdeye: I forgot to mention that 340 the lowest sensitivity you can get while maintaining the fastest potential movement. I thought I implied that with what I said.

Edited by X-Ployt, 29 June 2016 - 12:02 AM.

[ThirdEyE]

Are you guys suggesting that the range for doing a 180 should be bigger? But then you would run the risk of accidentally doing a 180 when you meant to dodge, if you were walking backwards even a little while moving to the side. Doing a 180 tends to be more of a unfavorable move in battle, so it feels just in making it a more deliberate move. Wouldn't be such a bad idea to allow for customization of thresholds for the boost modifier, but personally I would feel like that would be a low priority.

Thirdeye: I forgot to mention that 340 the lowest sensitivity you can get while maintaining the fastest potential movement. I thought I implied that with what I said.

No, if anything the range for making a 180 should be smaller.  It currently feels like any input towards the rear half results in a 180.

 

My understanding is that 340 is the lowest sensitivity that doesn't reduce your turn rate cap.  Pretty sure we are on the same page.

 

For anyone else looking to remove the deadzones, they are located in the BaseInput.ini.  I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

[XPloyt]

No, if anything the range for making a 180 should be smaller.  It currently feels like any input towards the rear half results in a 180.

Wow, I managed to misread that completely. My bad.

The odd thing is, I tend to accidentally dodge, but never accidentally do 180's.

Edited by X-Ployt, 29 June 2016 - 01:10 AM.

[Duralumi]

I'd imagine Skating is extremely difficult, if near-impossible on a controller.

[Kopra]

Are you guys suggesting that the range for doing a 180 should be bigger? But then you would run the risk of accidentally doing a 180 when you meant to dodge, if you were walking backwards even a little while moving to the side. Doing a 180 tends to be more of a unfavorable move in battle, so it feels just in making it a more deliberate move. Wouldn't be such a bad idea to allow for customization of thresholds for the boost modifier, but personally I would feel like that would be a low priority.
 

 

Bigger, no, but better defined. I don't own a controller and haven't tried out Hawken with one, but what Hyginos described sounded really alarming. Something like "turn your analog stick to the left to dodge to the left but avoid the entire lower part so you don't accidentally turn 180 degrees and die" doesn't sound fun at all. If a player wants to do a 180-turn (a relatively rare move compared to the other moves), it shouldn't occupy half of the input area.

 

What I pictured from Hyginos' description and what I think it should be instead (roughly).