138 replies to this topic

[StubbornPuppet]

This is so relevant to so many discussions we have here.  I could have posted it in 4 or 5 different topics... so I chose to just do one.

 

[CrimsonKaim]

How can hitscan be countered? Hide behind cover. How can you shoot your opponent then with a hitscan weapon? You can't. Resulting in stat-gameplay rather than good strategic choices.

[ticklemyiguana]

How can hitscan be countered? Hide behind cover. How can you shoot your opponent then with a hitscan weapon? You can't. Resulting in stat-gameplay rather than good strategic choices.

I didn't watch any of the video but I know that this is a dumb statement.

[TheButtSatisfier]

How can hitscan be countered? Hide behind cover. How can you shoot your opponent then with a hitscan weapon? You can't. Resulting in stat-gameplay rather than good strategic choices.

 

"How can [insert weapon here] be countered? [Insert counter here]. How can you shoot your opponent then with [originally inserted weapon]? You can't. Resulting in stat-gameplay rather than good strategic choices."

 

As an aside, you know that the counter to cover is movement, right?

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 12 August 2016 - 07:55 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

"How can [insert weapon here] be countered? [Insert counter here]. How can you shoot your opponent then with [originally inserted weapon]? You can't. Resulting in stat-gameplay rather than good strategic choices."

 

As an aside, you know that the counter to cover is movement, right?

 

And movement means going out of cover, makes a potential target to hitscan wepaonary, which cannot be dodged/countered apart from alot of barriers and shields.

[TheButtSatisfier]

And movement means going out of cover, makes a potential target to hitscan wepaonary, which cannot be dodged/countered apart from alot of barriers and shields.

 

Are you assuming that (1) most people have 100% accuracy with their hitscan weapons and (2) they maintain that accuracy no matter how much their opponents move and dodge?

[HOHOHOSANTA]

And movement means going out of cover, makes a potential target to hitscan wepaonary, which cannot be dodged/countered apart from alot of barriers and shields.

this game has tracer shots, which go through walls and certain areas. 

[CrimsonKaim]

Are you assuming that (1) most people have 100% accuracy with their hitscan weapons and (2) they maintain that accuracy no matter how much their opponents move and dodge?

 

No but it is fairly easier to hit with a flak instead with the shotgun corsair. Which basically means the accuracy is significantly higher, which results in more guaranteed damage during the time being in a line of sight which means that it has a higher realistic DPS and most importantly, more static. Especially when it comes to sustaiend hitscan weaponary I owuldn't even bother to dodge anymore as a 1 second dodge cooldown would just result in a 0.2 second DPS stop.

 

Exampel of Assault: Ignore sustained DPS weapon, dodge TOWs. The fact that I fully ignore the DPS weapon is because it is hitscan and can not be dodged, the TOW can be dodged. Easy as that. Give me an internal that reduces the damage of all projectile (hitscan) weapon by a set amoutn I'd be happy but oh hey! It got removed from previous builds.

[HOHOHOSANTA]

No but it is fairly easier to hit with a flak instead with the shotgun corsair.

 

I disagree with this lol shotgun/cosair > flak but my opinion is coming from who the player is and their accuracy. I'd still choose it vice versa

[TheButtSatisfier]

No but it is fairly easier to hit with a flak instead with the shotgun corsair. Which basically means the accuracy is significantly higher, which results in more guaranteed damage during the time being in a line of sight which means that it has a higher realistic DPS and most importantly, more static.

 

Sure, a hitscan weapon will be easier to land than a projectile weapon without remote det. However, the corsair is very effective when used in certain situations, and good pilots will engage when they can capitalize on that. While the flak may have better DPS output than the MIRV, the Flak can't transform into the KLA which has a lot of tactical benefit in its own right. The Flak also doesn't have as high of a burst as the MIRV, and given that the MIRV is on a mech that is designed to get up close to maximize the number of projectiles that land, it's going to be the larger threat when used appropriately (shot for shot).

 

Especially when it comes to sustaiend hitscan weaponary I owuldn't even bother to dodge anymore as a 1 second dodge cooldown would just result in a 0.2 second DPS stop.

 

Exampel of Assault: Ignore sustained DPS weapon, dodge TOWs. The fact that I fully ignore the DPS weapon is because it is hitscan and can not be dodged, the TOW can be dodged. Easy as that. Give me an internal that reduces the damage of all projectile (hitscan) weapon by a set amoutn I'd be happy but oh hey! It got removed from previous builds.

 

A player can still take evasive maneuvers and reduce the hit % of a sustained weapon firing at them. Walking at a straight line towards the enemy without moving side to side will increase the number of shots they land. So to "ignore" a hitscan weapon means you're needlessly letting someone apply more damage to you instead of throwing in a couple side-to-sides (WASD circling, not slide-dodges) that will reduce their hits by 10-20%. Also don't depreciate 10-20% of damage reduction; this is a high TTK game so every bit of damage avoided is something meaningful in aggregate.

 

As you suggested, using slide-dodges to avoid secondaries is also optimal, since that's pretty much the one maneuver you have to use against secondaries aimed at you.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 12 August 2016 - 12:00 PM.

[Hecatoncheires]

Thread addresses a common issue with many of our discussions. --> Community goes off on a tangent trying to one-up each another...

 

Sorry, I don't think most of our community understands what mutual benefit is.

[Flifang]

Technician heal reduction on damage, Incinerator's passive ability siphoning heat from opponents and allies, G2 raider increasing speed but also draining fuel, view range and removal on damage of the predator cloak, increased damage on turret mode mechs from the back and reduced mobility. 

 

Barrier blocks anyone's movement, the shield is one way only and encourages "shield play",health charges can be used by anyone, hovering can be a better movement option and give a better LOS to shoot while also making you a target.

 

So many come to mind in hawken, and quite a few things still miss this opportunity.

[Onstrava]

If Hawken was using this "counterplay" correctly it would have more than idk, a 1000 people playing it at one given time....Just a thought, the player base is equivalent to a small town in the middle of no where, and this game is world wide mind you....Take from that as you will. Just going to leave this here...yup. Right here: https://steamdb.info.../271290/graphs/

[KamikazeCommando]

Wait, what? 3 million+ people 'own' the game, but fewer than 300 play it on a daily basis- am I reading that right? Oh wow, that's just... oh dear. 

[Flifang]

If Hawken was using this "counterplay" correctly it would have more than idk, a 1000 people playing it at one given time....Just a thought, the player base is equivalent to a small town in the middle of no where, and this game is world wide mind you....Take from that as you will. Just going to leave this here...yup. Right here: https://steamdb.info.../271290/graphs/

Hawken suffers from many issues. From theme to game-play pace, it just doesn't fit with everyone. Hell, I'm even willing to bet depth of play, counter-play included; may have driven some players off, but I honestly don't know. Gamers are fickle. How often does one person stick with one game for as long as some of us have, regardless of how often the game is updated in a genera as niche as hawken is?

 

I don't think anyone here can give a truly appropriate one-reason answer to why the game has managed to hold the attention of so few people. I find your statement here pretty loaded. What would any of the info presented by the link you gave, give any direct evidence to the idea that counterplay, or the lack thereof; is the sole reason as to why hawken has such a small playerbase?

Edited by Flifang, 12 August 2016 - 05:13 PM.

[Onstrava]

above^

Of course counter play isn't the only reason Hawken isn't doing well, you don't need to look to far in the forums to see the abundance of issues. I showed the database to show you how many people we have currently out of how many people we could have a small pie of. I guess I should've made two post so people didn't get confused in thinking that was the only reason I put it up there, I'm referring to the counterplay part of my post. What I was saying is that if this "counterplay" formula works according to these devs of course, we should've gotten some of these 3 mil back, even the smallest amount really. Of course not everybody is going to come back but it isn't a simple matter of just not wanting to play the game. Guess what I didn't want to play Overwatch 30min ago but I play it anyway, whatever "counterplay" formula there using is working on me and I guess others as well. Something is not working on this game the numbers is all the evidence you need to show that, the formula is broken on this game, along with many things sadly. What I think of when I think "counterplay", I think equal reward, not just for the aggressor but also the victim. Blah whatever, none of this stuff seems to matter anymore, the damage seems to have already been done.

Edited by Onstrava, 12 August 2016 - 06:39 PM.

[Flifang]

Of course counter play isn't the only reason Hawken isn't doing well, you don't need to look to far in the forums to see the abundance of issues. I showed the database to show you how many people we have currently out of how many people we could have a small pie of. I guess I should've made two post so people didn't get confused in thinking that was the only reason I put it up there, I'm referring to the counterplay part of my post. What I was saying is that if this "counterplay" formula works according to these devs of course, we should've gotten some of these 3 mil back, even the smallest amount really. Of course not everybody is going to come back but it isn't a simple matter of just not wanting to play the game. Guess what I didn't want to play Overwatch 30min ago but I play it anyway, whatever "counterplay" formula there using is working on me and I guess others as well. Something is not working on this game the numbers is all the evidence you need to show that, the formula is broken on this game, along with many things sadly. What I think of when I think "counterplay", I think equal reward, not just for the aggressor but also the victim. Blah whatever, none of this stuff seems to matter anymore, the damage seems to have already been done.

Old players can, and do come back though. The ones who are truly interested in the game come back. The thing is: hawken is old for a game of this format. I started playing while I was in High school, and now I'm 13 credits (15 weeks worth of classes) away from my associates degree.

 

When a game has as little advertisement and substantial development for as long as hawken has, people lose interest. I remember when THOUSANDS of people played. I couldn't tell you when people started leaving though. It seemed to happen so gradually over time. I remember coming back to the game after a near summer long hiatus to find that the G2 assault was a thing, and decided to grind for it. I never played the assault before that, and found my most effective way to farm xp was doing missile assault. About two days of grinding and for the first time since I started playing hawken I was noticing I was getting matched with the same people over and over. Something I had not encountered as regularly as that prior. By the time I made a little bit of a name for myself I finally realized that there weren't as many people playing as there used to.

 

That was high school boys and girls. I'm about to start my third year in college. Even I'm just now letting that sink in.

[DieselCat]

If Hawken was using this "counterplay" correctly it would have more than idk, a 1000 people playing it at one given time....Just a thought, the player base is equivalent to a small town in the middle of no where, and this game is world wide mind you....Take from that as you will. Just going to leave this here...yup. Right here: https://steamdb.info.../271290/graphs/

 

Those numbers are quite sobering.... 

[CrimsonKaim]

Sure, a hitscan weapon will be easier to land than a projectile weapon without remote det. However, the corsair is very effective when used in certain situations, and good pilots will engage when they can capitalize on that. While the flak may have better DPS output than the MIRV, the Flak can't transform into the KLA which has a lot of tactical benefit in its own right. The Flak also doesn't have as high of a burst as the MIRV, and given that the MIRV is on a mech that is designed to get up close to maximize the number of projectiles that land, it's going to be the larger threat when used appropriately (shot for shot).

 

 

A player can still take evasive maneuvers and reduce the hit % of a sustained weapon firing at them. Walking at a straight line towards the enemy without moving side to side will increase the number of shots they land. So to "ignore" a hitscan weapon means you're needlessly letting someone apply more damage to you instead of throwing in a couple side-to-sides (WASD circling, not slide-dodges) that will reduce their hits by 10-20%. Also don't depreciate 10-20% of damage reduction; this is a high TTK game so every bit of damage avoided is something meaningful in aggregate.

 

As you suggested, using slide-dodges to avoid secondaries is also optimal, since that's pretty much the one maneuver you have to use against secondaries aimed at you.

 

 

Then compare Heat and Flak, sure Heat has alot more range but won't do the DPS a Flak does, nor the burst damage. Unless you fully charge it, the heat is almost impossible to hit against aware enemies at longer ranegs anyways. 

 

10-20 percent means little to nothing of a DPS weapon. Example of the Vulcan with has slightly above 100 DPS so we simply say 100 to make it easy for now. 10-20 hitpoints less per second means that an A-class can (~350 HP) can survive ~ 4 seconds instead of 3.5 when under continous fire of a DPS weapon.

And now, this is not a high TTK game, it is a fairly low/short TTK game. Long TTK games for example are World of Tanks/Warships, Elite: Dangerous or Mechwarrior. Short TTK games for example are obviously Hawken, Battlefield/CoD, World of Warplanes.

 

In Hawken, it is possible to completely alpha another player. So the actual TTK would be 0 seconds (only in theory if you'd hit all your combo shots at once). You can't tell me that 0 seconds is a high TTK, 4 seconds is also not a high TTK. 1 minute would be a high TTK but Hawken is not a high TTK game. 

 

So, now please tell me how hitscan can be effectively countered with a DPS reduction of atleast 50% while being in a line of sight. I say it is impossible as of hitscan. 3.5 seconds or 4 is no difference and this is just a Vulcan. Imagine two Vulcans from two players and now consider that they have TOWs or other secondaries and eventually another item. While you can combo-dodge the non-hitscan weaponary it is simply impossible to dodge hitscan weaponary. 

[TheButtSatisfier]

10-20 percent means little to nothing of a DPS weapon. Example of the Vulcan with has slightly above 100 DPS so we simply say 100 to make it easy for now. 10-20 hitpoints less per second means that an A-class can (~350 HP) can survive ~ 4 seconds instead of 3.5 when under continous fire of a DPS weapon.

 

That extra half second is what I'm talking about when I said it's something meaningful. To boot, .5 seconds is for A-classes, so the heavier classes will be alive even longer. That's also assuming that firing at a moving target incurs an accuracy penalty of only 10-20%, since it could be higher depending on cover, terrain, skill, etc.

 

Also keep in mind that many fights are reliably counted in seconds. If I'm equally matched HP and DPS-wise with another player, but I can dance for 4 seconds while they only dance for 3.5, then I have a quantifiable advantage. In aggregate, that means I'm the one that's sitting on their orb after we're done. I don't discredit that extra time. I capitalize on it.

 

And now, this is not a high TTK game, it is a fairly low/short TTK game. Long TTK games for example are World of Tanks/Warships, Elite: Dangerous or Mechwarrior. Short TTK games for example are obviously Hawken, Battlefield/CoD, World of Warplanes.

 

I should have clarified that I'm saying Hawken has a high TTK in reference to other arena shooters. In that regard I think it's safe to assume Hawken's >5 second average 1v1 time is on the high side.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 13 August 2016 - 02:22 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

That extra half second is what I'm talking about when I said it's something meaningful. To boot, .5 seconds is for A-classes, so the heavier classes will be alive even longer. That's also assuming that firing at a moving target incurs an accuracy penalty of only 10-20%, since it could be higher depending on cover, terrain, skill, etc.

 

Also keep in mind that many fights are reliably counted in seconds. If I'm equally matched HP and DPS-wise with another player, but I can dance for 4 seconds while they only dance for 3.5, then I have a quantifiable advantage. In aggregate, that means I'm the one that's sitting on their orb after we're done. I don't discredit that extra time. I capitalize on it.

 

 

I should have clarified that I'm saying Hawken has a high TTK in reference to other arena shooters. In that regard I think it's safe to assume Hawken's >5 second average 1v1 time is on the high side.

 

But then again you are assuming that a C-class is just as mobile and agile as an A-class with the same hitbox. A C-class will most likely be hit even more due to it being a big target and therefore a weapon magnet. 

So we can reduce the .5 seconds to even less .. let's say .25 and this is even less .. also comparing to the total TTK needed to get rid of a C-class to an A: A C-Class, let's say Brawler with 800 HP can sustain 8 seconds. 8.25 seconds or 8 is basically the same. 

Now we also have to consider that Hawken is usally played in a team mode so 1v1 calculations are not really useful. We have to multiply the results by atleast 3 as on average half of the team (usually in a 6v6: 3) will be firing at the same target (in higher tier matches). So even assuming we have a .5 second difference, devided by 3 it would be a .167 second difference. And this is also nothing. 

 

Again, show me a way to counter/avoid hitscan fire when being in the line of sight that effectively reduces the DPS of hitscan weapons by atleast 50%. 

In theory, you could dodge all non-hitscan weapons for example TOWs of a whole team, effectively reducing their DPS by 100%. Thus, however, assumes they all fire at the same time and at the same spot so this is fairly unrealistic, yet possible.

[Pumapaw]

This could have been one heck of a good team warfare game. Like for example world in conflict.

[Charcoal]

How can hitscan be countered? Hide behind cover. How can you shoot your opponent then with a hitscan weapon? You can't. Resulting in stat-gameplay rather than good strategic choices.

I'd take smoke bombs if we had them

[TheButtSatisfier]

But then again you are assuming that a C-class is just as mobile and agile as an A-class with the same hitbox. A C-class will most likely be hit even more due to it being a big target and therefore a weapon magnet. 

So we can reduce the .5 seconds to even less .. let's say .25 and this is even less .. also comparing to the total TTK needed to get rid of a C-class to an A: A C-Class, let's say Brawler with 800 HP can sustain 8 seconds. 8.25 seconds or 8 is basically the same. 

 

A good point and likely true. I'd want to test some of these values by WASD circling in different mechs to see what the effect of aim is.

 

Again, show me a way to counter/avoid hitscan fire when being in the line of sight that effectively reduces the DPS of hitscan weapons by atleast 50%. 

In theory, you could dodge all non-hitscan weapons for example TOWs of a whole team, effectively reducing their DPS by 100%. Thus, however, assumes they all fire at the same time and at the same spot so this is fairly unrealistic, yet possible.

 

I don't think that hitscan weapons need to be dodged by 50% to be balanced with projectile weapons. Projectile weapons tend to have more damage (burst or otherwise) than their hitscan counterparts, and while I agree that trace weapons on certain mechs are more underwhelming than their projectile counterparts (I've never been particularly worried about EOC anything, while I have been worried about a solid Flak player), I don't think they're wildly out of balance.

 

I suppose I don't really see the issue. Hitscan vs cover mechanics have been a cornerstone of every arena shooter I've played, and so the projectile aspect of this game - even the remote det that a lot of people don't enjoy - I find to be a breath of fresh air. I enjoy that my projectile secondaries add another dimension atop the hitscan vs cover I'm used to, since I can use that to hit people trying to appear from corners, to hit them after a dodge, to alpha, etc.

 

What do you propose to address the issue you originally raised?

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 13 August 2016 - 12:59 PM.

[CrimsonKaim]

A good point and likely true. I'd want to test some of these values by WASD circling in different mechs to see what the effect of aim is.

 

 

I don't think that hitscan weapons need to be dodged by 50% to be balanced with projectile weapons. 

 

What do you propose to address the issue you originally raised?

 

I think it has to be balanced to 50%. Give a possibility to avoid weaponary on equal skill levels by 50%. 

How? There are many ways to achieve that.

 

My favourite solution would be to completely get rid of hitscan. Replace every weapon with actual projectiles and travel speed apart from sniper rifles (I find these medium burst, low DPS weapons need hitscan as of dodging and the fast pace of Hawken. Otherwise increase their damage by alot either via shot damage or RoF if they shouldn't be hitscan. Sniper rifles are the sabot families and the slug. Hawkins are no sniper rifles as of DPS, full automatic mode).

It would simply allow the player to avoid fire by increasing distance and moving unpredictable. This also has the side effect that range increases the likelyhood of being able to dodge.

 

Another solution is to offer internals that reduce kinetic damage (hitscan) by atleast 30% with the tradeoff of increased damage to other damage types (example: explosives like heat or the GL launcher). 

 

A third solution would be to significantly reduce the damage on longer distances where hitscan really shines for beginners and newbies as this is where every other projectile weapon (especially the EOC) fails on moving targets. Basically make hitscan only effective at short distances, medium distances comes with a large damage penalty and long distances with a huge damage penalty of atleast 90%. This makes sniper rifles more powerful while reducing the effectiveness of the endless dps weapon spam which can quickly get an A class to 50% health.

 

And a forth solution would be to significantly increase the heat generation of hitscan weapons, simply because they travel at 100km/s whic his more than a rail/coilgun which needs around 25 megawatts of power to accelerate a single medium seized projectile (Heat shell for example) to 5km/s or with the coilgun of 35km/s but with way less accuracy. This would also reduce the spam of hitscan weaponary assuming the heatgen is increased by around 100%. 

 

And the last solution I am thinking of is to significantly reduce the accuracy when firing too long for every sustained weapon and reduce the damage for hitscan shotguns at medium distances to make them only effective at smaller distances (small distances: 2 A-classes wide). The first shot is accurate and keeps its damage obviously while firing for too long significantly reduces the accuracy to make them only effective at smaller ranges for the ultimate hull shredderer.

 

 

The aim to balance hitscan weaponary is to reduce their effectiveness at longer distances because with range, every hitscan weaponary gains in power as for every projectile weapon the possible area of an opponent moving gets larger with longer distances (measured fro mthe start when the shot is fired and ends when it hits either the opponent or misses). This travel time is extremely important as it allows for players to counter by using certain patters of movements. Hitscan weaponary completely ignores this and the user is not required to actively calculate the opponent's movement or atleast predict. Just looking at the target simply guarantees a hit. 

 

 

Previously, sustained weapons would significantly generate more heat, lose accuracy when firing too long and when in mid-air. All these tradeoffs got removed because newbies have complained about Hawken being too hard. The result is what made Hawken fall. A game that is enjoyable for the first 10 hours until you figure out that you just got equiped with the best mech in the game (Assault) as it is the easiest to use while being the most powerful one (also weapon wise). AR+TOW is an easy to use, deadly combo .. atleast without the mentioned tradeoffs. Now with the aircompressor and the missing accuracy reduction we got slug reapers air dodging all the time, airzerkers permanently dodging with its fast airspeed while shootign a buffed vulcan and assaults just outtankign every A class with a single weapon.

 

See I have been using an EOC Infiltrator for a long time (because alpha strikes). The most enjoyable fights were always another EOC Infil or Raider. Also a Rocketeer in close combat was fun or a sharshooter.

But against any mech with a sustained hitscan weapon it is hard and boring. Just the crust of the bread noone wants to eat. Airzerkers are the worst of all. Quickly stealth and refuse to fight as a single vulcan can simply make quick work of every A class without the need to hit the secondary TOW. 

The Airzerker just has to dodge a single weapon shot of either my EOC or the GL to win while I have to find cover in the next 3 seconds or I'm dead.

Even with a full burst of an EOC and a GL (and possibly a detonator) the Zerker wouldn't be dead and it takes roughly 3 seconds to fully charge the EOC. Its DPS is 60 AFAIK so it would take 6 seconds of 100% hitrate to kill a zerker with my non-hitscan EOC while the airzerker has a +100 DPS hitscan vulcan. 

 

 

Why caring about the EOC or any burst weapon with a low DPS if a DPS weapon can deal the same amount of damage with hitscan with just .5 seconds more time?

 

That's why hitscan is broken and it was since ADH buffed hitscan weaponary, especially DPS ones. In Hawken, hitscan weaponary is doing the work, not the pilot. 

 

 

PS: Sorry for typos and blah, I'm tired.

Edited by CrimsonKaim, 13 August 2016 - 01:56 PM.

[CrimsonKaim]

I'd take smoke bombs if we had them

 

Well, we have a flash bang

[Flifang]

All but two hitscan weapons lose significant damage over range. Forget missing. When a hitscan bullet will normally do barely double digit damage at optimal range, those drop off percentages take a heavy toll. Not only that, but pretty much all hitscan weapons that have damage falloff are also punished by an increased spread at longer ranges. That's reducing both potential damage, and actual dps.

 

Counter play is a risk reward system. It's not a literal system with a counter to everything implemented. It gives everyone options and increases the fun factor of multi-player games.

 

Hitscan HAS drawbacks. They often overheat faster, and you get extra heat when you fire both weapons at the same time. Projectiles have utility in often having their own hit boxes along with splash damage and maybe a ricochet. In fact, every weapon has ups and downs. Some weapons reward completely different playstyles in the case of the hawkins brawler vs. the flak brawler.

 

Since you are so insistent upon using the excuse that hawken is a team game to try and reduce the viability of discussing 1v1 situations, how about this. You're cornered and stuck behind cover at low health, and a full health AR assault is just around the corner waiting to pounce. SUDDENLY, YOUR ENTIRE TEAM POUNCES, and the assault dies and you live. I just presented a perfect situation for the assault, and just crushed it with a perfect scenario in which the team cooperates fully.

 

Let me ask you, does your team always cooperate? If yes, then by all means I retract my statement. But, if I'm correct in assuming your teammates don't always come to your rescue, then why do you insist that 1v1 calculations aren't very helpful?

 

Crimson I can't help but get the feeling that you have a bias against hitscan weapons.

[Jelooboi]

All but two hitscan weapons lose significant damage over range. Forget missing. When a hitscan bullet will normally do barely double digit damage at optimal range, those drop off percentages take a heavy toll. Not only that, but pretty much all hitscan weapons that have damage falloff are also punished by an increased spread at longer ranges. That's reducing both potential damage, and actual dps.

 

Counter play is a risk reward system. It's not a literal system with a counter to everything implemented. It gives everyone options and increases the fun factor of multi-player games.

 

Hitscan HAS drawbacks. They often overheat faster, and you get extra heat when you fire both weapons at the same time. Projectiles have utility in often having their own hit boxes along with splash damage and maybe a ricochet. In fact, every weapon has ups and downs. Some weapons reward completely different playstyles in the case of the hawkins brawler vs. the flak brawler.

 

Since you are so insistent upon using the excuse that hawken is a team game to try and reduce the viability of discussing 1v1 situations, how about this. You're cornered and stuck behind cover at low health, and a full health AR assault is just around the corner waiting to pounce. SUDDENLY, YOUR ENTIRE TEAM POUNCES, and the assault dies and you live. I just presented a perfect situation for the assault, and just crushed it with a perfect scenario in which the team cooperates fully.

 

Let me ask you, does your team always cooperate? If yes, then by all means I retract my statement. But, if I'm correct in assuming your teammates don't always come to your rescue, then why do you insist that 1v1 calculations aren't very helpful?

 

Crimson I can't help but get the feeling that you have a bias against hitscan weapons.

Whoa fli is that really you? Ur so...white.

[hestoned]

solution:

 

get gud

[ATX22]

solution:

 

get gud

 

This a solution for Hawken itself or are you directing this at the player base that moved on to other things?

[Charcoal]

Well, we have a flash bang

Yes, but smoke would be more effective at longer ranges to obscure 

 

* Framerates may not like smoke though

[CrimsonKaim]

Yes, but smoke would be more effective at longer ranges to obscure 

 

* Framerates may not like smoke though

 

This was more like a negative shoutout. The Flashbang is not really useful and teammates tend to ignore it as most of them are used to friendly fire turned off. 

resulting in blinding your own team as well in a deathball.

 

Smoke would be awesome but given Hawken's current state we shouldn't expect anything significant to happen in then ear future, so maybe summer 2017 or start of 2018 ... if at all. 

And if it would be implemented soonTM it would be a pathetic 2D animation with stealth mechs not rendering the smoke through its stealth as it is currently the case with all kinds of smoke and fog in Hawken.

[CrimsonKaim]

solution:

 

get gud

 

Solution: Technician. Jesus beam and forget about all hitscan.

[Hyginos]

The idea that hitscan is inherently uncounterable and unskillful as compared to projectile is poorly informed bordering on laughable. Lets look at some other games that have both hitscan and projectiles shall we?

1. UT/quake: Rocket launcher is the go-to easy-mode noob weapon. rail/sniper/shock considered difficult to use.
2. Tribes: I mostly have second hand knowledge of this, but by understanding is that spin fuser ground pound builds are pretty commonplace/meta.
3. Halo/CoD: rocket/grenade launchers deemed "noobtubes" and generally considered unskillful. 

So why is this? Splash damage. If your projectile explodes you only have to get close with the aim, and you don't even need line of sight to do damage. In Hawken you can even use remote det to further soften the aim requirement. You would also think that if hitscan was a problem in itself that all hitscan mechs would be overpowered, but sharpshooter, a reaper, or G2 assault are quite distinctly NOT stronger than TOW/GL mechs.

[StubbornPuppet]

Lol, I guess I was mainly meaning this to pertain to the discussion about how to deal with the orb-lord meta... and a few others.  Never expected it to turn into some hitscan vs. burst vs. projectile debate.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 15 August 2016 - 07:02 AM.

[DerMax]

The idea that hitscan is inherently uncounterable and unskillful as compared to projectile is poorly informed bordering on laughable. Lets look at some other games that have both hitscan and projectiles shall we?

1. UT/quake: Rocket launcher is the go-to easy-mode noob weapon. rail/sniper/shock considered difficult to use.
2. Tribes: I mostly have second hand knowledge of this, but by understanding is that spin fuser ground pound builds are pretty commonplace/meta.
3. Halo/CoD: rocket/grenade launchers deemed "noobtubes" and generally considered unskillful. 

So why is this? Splash damage. If your projectile explodes you only have to get close with the aim, and you don't even need line of sight to do damage. In Hawken you can even use remote det to further soften the aim requirement. You would also think that if hitscan was a problem in itself that all hitscan mechs would be overpowered, but sharpshooter, a reaper, or G2 assault are quite distinctly NOT stronger than TOW/GL mechs.

In the current PC iteration of Hawken, however, hitscan primaries are considerably stronger than projectile ones. I attribute this to the exorbitant boost delay, high air speeds, no lag compensation and no accuracy penalty while mid-air.

[CraftyDus]

 hitscan primaries are considerably stronger than projectile ones

 

I would say "considerably easier" to learn. Projectiles such as eoc and rev gl require more practice is all I'd say there is to it.

I would avoid equating difficulty-to-master to weakness.

[StubbornPuppet]

I think that it is the differences between hit-scan, projectiles and burst weapons... and the way different people use them, which create a good element of "counterplay" in Hawken.  Each requires a different technique and approach to both use and avoid... and there are multiple ways to approach both.

 

The places that Hawken lacks counterplay is in certain metas that have evolved around certain mechs and certain internals.  When something becomes a 'no-brainer' choice for which mech to put which items, weapons and gear into, that is breaking the concept of counterplay.

[DerMax]

I would say "considerably easier" to learn. Projectiles such as eoc and rev gl require more practice is all I'd say there is to it.

I would avoid equating difficulty-to-master to weakness.

EOC is difficult to master and weak at the same time. Double whammy.

 

No amount of EOC Infil bullshittery will win you a fight against an equally skilled AR Zerker.

[Hyginos]

In the current PC iteration of Hawken, however, hitscan primaries are considerably stronger than projectile ones. I attribute this to the exorbitant boost delay, high air speeds, no lag compensation and no accuracy penalty while mid-air.

 

Yeah man that PN233 is just OP as hell. If only it were a projectile weapon.

 

You say hitscan primaries are too strong, failing to realize that the hitscan primaries also tend to be sustain primaries. Don't attribute problems with sustain weapons' numbers to them being hitscan.