138 replies to this topic

[CraftyDus]

An AMSAR reaper often overheats before a brawler dies.
Depending on the brawler internals and the nature of the engagement, the brawler doesn't even need to fire back.
How many licks to the center of the tootsie pop? Too many.

 

 

34 shots and 12 seconds. Which is an eternity.

 

Edited by CraftyDus, 18 August 2016 - 08:19 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

Sigh.  I was never making any kind of a point about "what kind of game Hawken is" or "what constitutes skill" or especially, "how can we make Hawken appeal to dummies and low skill players".  I was talking about a preference and explaining why my preference is to avoid games that weigh heavily towards the "I saw you first, so you're dead" style.  My mistake was two-fold: not pre-qualifying every statement with things like "I am not saying that Hawken has become a twitch shooter, because it hasn't"... and expecting a discussion instead of opening a door to mockery and oneupsmanship.

 

What I treasure about Hawken is that it is much more than an FPS.  I love the strategy.  I love the sense of engagement.  I love the variety.  I love the opportunities for good counterplay.  I just liked it better before Ascension and Steam - and I'm even seeing mockery of the reasons why I liked it better from people who were even more openly critical of those updates than I was.

[Silverfire]

Sigh.  I was never making any kind of a point about "what kind of game Hawken is" or "what constitutes skill" or especially, "how can we make Hawken appeal to dummies and low skill players".  I was talking about a preference and explaining why my preference is to avoid games that weigh heavily towards the "I saw you first, so you're dead" style.  My mistake was two-fold: not pre-qualifying every statement with things like "I am not saying that Hawken has become a twitch shooter, because it hasn't"... and expecting a discussion instead of opening a door to mockery and oneupsmanship.

 

What I treasure about Hawken is that it is much more than an FPS.  I love the strategy.  I love the sense of engagement.  I love the variety.  I love the opportunities for good counterplay.  I just liked it better before Ascension and Steam - and I'm even seeing mockery of the reasons why I liked it better from people who were even more openly critical of those updates than I was.

 

Any shooter generally will inevitably have the "I saw you first so I will have an advantage" applied.  That's just something across all shooters it seems like. In Hawken it is still very likely you can come back from an initial TOW hit given the higher TTK relative to most other shooter games out there right now.  If we're talking, "Oh I got hit, now I need to figure out what I have to do now," versus "Oh crap, what the hell happened to me?" sort of scenario, what you are talking about is not about TTK but rather the mindsets of an experienced player versus an inexperienced player. 

 

If we are simply referring to surviving alpha strikes, then I don't support helping out the person who was not-good-enough to not get alpha striked.  That's a mistake.  A player mistake, not a mistake on the game's end. If I, in any other generic shooter, sneak up on someone and knife them in the head, they should die.  They shouldn't be protected from dying immediately, or being severely damaged, or rewarded for not being aware of their surroundings.  Why shouldn't the same apply to Hawken? 

[harmless_kittens]

I've dramatically improved by K/D ratio in my Predator by simply KNOWING WHEN TO WITHDRAW.  The way I personally play Predator is in "vulture" mode where I'm attacking from stealth to finish off an already damaged target.  Once I got better at this then I moved up to "assassin" mode where I'm still attacking from stealth, but this time on a full health target with a big alpha strike.  But I quickly learned that I had to choose my battles very carefully.  I love A class mechs because of their low health.  But my best alpha strike is not enough to take out a full health B Class, which is why I have reverted back to Breacher instead of EOC.  I know I will need more shots after the alpha strike, and I need to make sure they all hit.  But I don't even bother making alpha strikes on full health C class mechs (unless I am behind their "turret mode").  They just have too much health, and I'm not a good enough player to win a duel between my Predator and a big fatty.

 

But the other things I improved on were NOT diving into a battle that I was almost sure to lose, AND knowing when to run.  Yes, I could finish off that guy repairing right now, but he's surrounded by 3 of his friends at full health.  That's a fool's errand.  MAYBE if we're in a comfortable lead, but otherwise No.  Similarly, if I get alpha-striked, or sometimes even accidentally so, while I'm in stealth, I usually RUN.  It may be cowardly, but why turn and fight only to lose?  Instead I run straight for my team-mates.  If I can survive the mad dash to where they are, I can usually heal in safety.  I still have a lot to learn, and I'm almost never at the top of the leaderboard, but I'm NOT helping the other team win, which I find that Predator is pretty good at when played right.

 

I only mention all of this to say that I humbly concur with the idea that "alpha striking" is perhaps the biggest denominator in who will win an encounter.  Yes, there are some Scout players who are so awesome that I can get them down to 10 health with the alpha and then they dance around and take me out while I never land another shot, but these players are rare.  For Predators obviously alpha-strike is everything, but I'm guessing it applies in other duels too.  And its not a bad thing.  It's realistic and it forces you to always be aware of your surroundings (again easier in a Predator).  In fact I think if more new players just RAN back to their team to heal when suddenly alpha-striked, rather than turn and fight it out (to their death), matches would turn out much better.  Its not just about winning THIS duel - its about what's my escape route if I win this duel.  But it took me a LONG time to realize this.

[Flifang]

and likewise ONLY rewarding those who can set up an alpha strike, for the sake of satisfying your desire to destroy papier-mache robots while allowing zero room to learn how to do anything else, is a bit extreme, as well, all I'm saying find a balance, too long of a TTK and things get stale, too short (like less than one millionth of a second) and it becomes off putting for the person on the receiving end.

 

Edit: You are right on 1 point though,, this is not just an fps, it is also a mech game, with varying levels (classes) and styles of mech durability and speed, should an A class run circles around a class C? sure, but should a class C not have some means to respond to compensate? and what about the class B? not fast enough to keep up with the class A and not armored enough to survive a full burst

I see the word balance thrown around a lot on this thread. What exactly do you mean by, balance?

 

Do you mean balance as in "if I engage a brawler in my scout in an open field I should have an equal chance to defeat them outside of personal decisions in the heat of combat," or do you mean "give me the ability to square up with a mech that has a significant advantage due to a situational disadvantage?" 

 

If you attempt to engage a full health brawler in a predator with no plans aside from direct assault you're going to get obliterated.

 

If you try to engage a berserker with your infiltrator equipped with an EOC and don't have an advantageous position you're probably going to die unless you hit all of those shots.  

 

You cannot, and will not receive a crutch for poor combat decisions in this game. That, going back to the original topic of this thread; is not counter play. That is not exciting. 

 

Turning the wrong direction to flee and desperately bobbing and weaving through the enemy team to find cover is exciting.

Setting up a predator trap at the start of the match, to later have a fleeing raider blitz halfway across the map only to trigger your trap is exciting.

Causing a veteran player to be fooled by your quickly placed hologram to buy you time to attack or escape is exciting.

Causing somebody to plummet from the top of origin to their death with a Mirv shot to their upper chassis is exciting.

 

Taking away certain challenging aspects of the game that add necessary depth and counter play options, to trivialize the risk portion that goes with any decision in the game, makes the game more dull and boring.

[StubbornPuppet]

Any shooter generally will inevitably have the "I saw you first so I will have an advantage" applied.  That's just something across all shooters it seems like. In Hawken it is still very likely you can come back from an initial TOW hit given the higher TTK relative to most other shooter games out there right now.  If we're talking, "Oh I got hit, now I need to figure out what I have to do now," versus "Oh crap, what the hell happened to me?" sort of scenario, what you are talking about is not about TTK but rather the mindsets of an experienced player versus an inexperienced player. 

 

If we are simply referring to surviving alpha strikes, then I don't support helping out the person who was not-good-enough to not get alpha striked.  That's a mistake.  A player mistake, not a mistake on the game's end. If I, in any other generic shooter, sneak up on someone and knife them in the head, they should die.  They shouldn't be protected from dying immediately, or being severely damaged, or rewarded for not being aware of their surroundings.  Why shouldn't the same apply to Hawken? 

 

To specify, I'm talking about "I saw you first so you're DEAD.", not "I saw you first so I will have an advantage."  And I used that as it applies in twitch shooters like Modern Warfare and it's clones - games where players with full health are killed within 2 seconds.  I'm saying that I think the moves Adhesives executives told them to make in the Ascension and Steam updates were (as implied by the devs at Adhesive themselves) meant to broaden the appeal of Hawken to fans of twitch shooters (which were incredibly popular in 2012-2014) - as twitch shooter fans who played Hawken were saying it felt slow and took too long to get kills.  It was a move to help cater the game to a demographic that they weren't winning over - and it is my opinion that it was a useless effort.  Hawken will not, and should never have tried to, appeal to any specific demographic (other than "gamers") - because it is simply different.  And that's what I love(d) about it - "Finally, a game that breaks the mold - a game that requires some footwork and thought, a game with a truly endless skill ceiling."

 

And I'm not saying that the core of what I love(d) about Hawken has really changed that much.  I'm just saying, once again, that I liked the pace of the game-play much more before Ascension and Steam.  I don't want any kind of forgiveness or compensation for any player weaknesses.  I'd just like to turn back a few things that more heavily favor rapid reflexes over decision making.

 

 

...snip...

 

You cannot, and will not receive a crutch for poor combat decisions in this game. That, going back to the original topic of this thread; is not counter play. That is not exciting. 

 

Turning the wrong direction to flee and desperately bobbing and weaving through the enemy team to find cover is exciting.

Setting up a predator trap at the start of the match, to later have a fleeing raider blitz halfway across the map only to trigger your trap is exciting.

Causing a veteran player to be fooled by your quickly placed hologram to buy you time to attack or escape is exciting.

Causing somebody to plummet from the top of origin to their death with a Mirv shot to their upper chassis is exciting.

 

Taking away certain challenging aspects of the game that add necessary depth and counter play options, to trivialize the risk portion that goes with any decision in the game, makes the game more dull and boring.

 

I agree with all of that.

[Mevaker]

I see the word balance thrown around a lot on this thread. What exactly do you mean by, balance?

 

Do you mean balance as in "if I engage a brawler in my scout in an open field I should have an equal chance to defeat them outside of personal decisions in the heat of combat," or do you mean "give me the ability to square up with a mech that has a significant advantage due to a situational disadvantage?" 

 

If you attempt to engage a full health brawler in a predator with no plans aside from direct assault you're going to get obliterated.

 

If you try to engage a berserker with your infiltrator equipped with an EOC and don't have an advantageous position you're probably going to die unless you hit all of those shots.  

 

You cannot, and will not receive a crutch for poor combat decisions in this game. That, going back to the original topic of this thread; is not counter play. That is not exciting. 

 

Turning the wrong direction to flee and desperately bobbing and weaving through the enemy team to find cover is exciting.

Setting up a predator trap at the start of the match, to later have a fleeing raider blitz halfway across the map only to trigger your trap is exciting.

Causing a veteran player to be fooled by your quickly placed hologram to buy you time to attack or escape is exciting.

Causing somebody to plummet from the top of origin to their death with a Mirv shot to their upper chassis is exciting.

 

Taking away certain challenging aspects of the game that add necessary depth and counter play options, to trivialize the risk portion that goes with any decision in the game, makes the game more dull and boring.

I think I mis-represented my opinion here...I was not referring to a "crutch" to favor those who make mistakes, I was actually referring to behavior along the lines described by Stubborn just now. I'm not talking about making a poor tactical decision and paying for it, I'm a hothead and tend to bite off more than I can chew, and when I die becase of it, I recognize this is MY fault. what I was referring to, (the "balance"I was referring to) is the point where a player does not feel his/her only recourse is to get an alpha-stikey mech or a class A glass cannon to be competent. when I say, Holy smokes what happened? i don't mean the player who stands there after surviving the first hit, trying to figure out where that damage came from, I am referring to the player who is looking at a smouldering pile of melting wreckage and wonders how he took so much damage from what appeared to be a single hit when he was nearly at full health. was it a bad tactical decision on behalf of the victim? most likely, there was something he might have done to compensate for it, and at least dodge half of it, sure. but when I walk up to someone with my bruiser, fire all my rockets, my det, point blank, and light them up with my point-d and they dissappear without ever being able to answer It's fun for me at the time, sure, but how's that work out with the other guy? I recognize I have TONS to learn, and maybe it's my inexperience talking, but unfortunately, a learning curve that starts with getting blown up as soon as your mech hits the ground is gonna turn many people away.

Edited by Mevaker, 19 August 2016 - 05:52 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

^Right.  And that's a part of the point I was going for:  Whether or not a player is able to turn the tables after having an opponent get the drop on them, it is always more enjoyable and satisfying to have enough of an opportunity to try.

 

I would agree completely that the person who gets the drop should win the encounter most of the time.  What I don't like, what makes it "not fun" is when the encounter consists of "SURPRISE MOTHER FUZZER!!! BOOM!, you're dead".  That situation, to me, just sucks.  That is why I don't like twitch shooters AT ALL.  I can "hang" in Modern Warfare and its other clones, giving as much as I get, but I don't play because I want to engage with and have battles with my opponents.  I do not find much thrill in killing an opponent in 2 seconds or less.  And I sure as hell don't like dying that fast.

 

The more time I have to "engage" with opponents and have a duel of sorts, the more fun it is TO ME.  I like the "dance", even if I know I'm most likely going to lose, I'd rather enjoy the nail-biting attempt to do 'something', even if it's futile.  And with that extended time, there's always the opportunity for a teammate to be just close enough to notice and step in to turn it into a real "battle".  That's the part where a slower time to kill turns makes the difference in how you positioned yourself strategically.  If you were wise enough to remain within range of your team and stay alert, that extra couple of seconds has paid off before you ever even made it to the point where everything becomes about your reflexes - the person with the faster reflexes still has the advantage, but it allows that forethought to carry some actual weight.

[CraftyDus]

Some players are just not going to be able to keep up.

And a higher ttk isn't going to help such people.

It will simply prolong the inevetible.

At the most it may provide such players with the delusion that they are "dogfighting", when in reality their giant health pool and the pathetically low damage weapons are making it possible for them to arrive at the awareness someone has been killing them.

I'm sure it's a lot more fun having a game slowed down to the point these people can begin to understand the dynamic of the exchange better.

But it makes erasing them more of a chore.

Ultimately it doesn't change the outcome enough for them to be able to contribute in a meaningful way to their in-game survival.

I believe a lower ttk can expose a player's shortcomings, and a higher ttk can help to conceal them.

[TheButtSatisfier]

I think the mechanics of getting the drop on someone in Hawken are in a very good spot.

 

There's a limited selection of mech-item combinations that can alpha-kill a full health A-class mech (the only class of mech where this can happen), and the mech performing the alpha has to be within about an A-class dodge's worth of distance to pull it off successfully. If the mech performing the alpha misses any of it's three simultaneous shots, then it's secondary and items are now on cooldown, and the other mech can respond with a host of counters.

 

Getting the drop on a mech in Hawken is much riskier than it appears. It requires good situational awareness to pull off in such a fashion that the person getting the drop maintains the advantage all the way through the fight - and that can take a long time given Hawken's TTK. Most <2100 MMR pilots that I see trying to get the drop haven't checked their radar, so when spot a single unaware enemy, they think that they've got this one in the bag. They haven't considered if that enemy is intentionally positioned to be within retreating distance to a nearby ally in the event of an alpha (which, as a rule of thumb, is a distance I always try to maintain), or if their enemy have a disabling item like an EMP, or if they're carrying shields (which can be a wonderful escape item).

 

In short, getting the drop on someone in this game is a high-risk, high-reward maneuver, and I think it equally rewards players on both sides who prepare and practice for such an event.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 19 August 2016 - 06:55 AM.

[harmless_kittens]

If a new player wants a chance to respond to an alpha-strike they should get a Brawler.  If they want a chance to run away they should get an Infiltrator, or maybe a Raider.  If they want to be almost impervious to alpha-strikes they should get a Pred (and learn to hide).

 

In other words, there ARE mechs that will help to defend against "instant kill".  But I personally do not want ALL mechs to have this capability.  Variety is a wondrous thing.

[DerMax]

I think the mechanics of getting the drop on someone in Hawken are in a very good spot.

In the current PC version A classes (sans zerker) can get rekt in a split second in at least five ways: pred's double salvo, turkey salvo, infil's full EOC alpha, heat gren or slug ss (+det) with the ability. Some of these cannot be dependably avoided.

 

I think A classes need more hp (+50); this ttk is too little.

Edited by DerMax, 19 August 2016 - 07:56 AM.

[Silverfire]

 

The more time I have to "engage" with opponents and have a duel of sorts, the more fun it is TO ME.  I like the "dance", even if I know I'm most likely going to lose, I'd rather enjoy the nail-biting attempt to do 'something', even if it's futile.  And with that extended time, there's always the opportunity for a teammate to be just close enough to notice and step in to turn it into a real "battle".  That's the part where a slower time to kill turns makes the difference in how you positioned yourself strategically.  If you were wise enough to remain within range of your team and stay alert, that extra couple of seconds has paid off before you ever even made it to the point where everything becomes about your reflexes - the person with the faster reflexes still has the advantage, but it allows that forethought to carry some actual weight.

 

I still regularly encounter duels like this.  It's not as if with the TTK changes made years ago, the game has changed and this doesn't happen anymore.  You speak as if this type of encounter has more or less disappeared from the game.

[TheButtSatisfier]

In the current PC version A classes (sans zerker) can get rekt in a split second in at least five ways: pred's double salvo, turkey salvo, infil's full EOC alpha, heat gren or slug ss (+det) with the ability. Some of these cannot be dependably avoided.

 

I think A classes need more hp (+50); this ttk is too little.

 

I disagree. The number of times where I've seen a full health A-class get rekt in a split second by any of your listed combinations I can count on two hands. >95% of the time any of those salvos are directed at a moving A-mech, they do partial damage (not all EOC pucks landed, the gren wasn't a direct hit, the detonator didn't land directly). Every shot must land very close to directly (if not directly), the mech launching the assault is going to overextend, and they're going to have to be within roughly dodging-range of the enemy to pull it off. It's a balanced mechanic and an exciting one. I've never seen it happen and said to myself, "Wow, that's super OP and the devs should remove it from the game." I see it and think to myself, "Wow, I haven't seen that in a while. That'll teach that A-class to sit still around a corner after they showed up on radar running there."

 

I think giving A-classes more health to address a very rare, high-risk high reward scenario that pilots can counter with effective positioning is both unnecessary and narrows the variety of plays that can be made in this game. Plus, as Arch3typ3 mentions below, that extra 50 HP across an entire class of mechs without any other changes elsewhere would quantifiably unbalance the meta of the game. It would be a heavy-handed, coarse, and imprecise change.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 19 August 2016 - 08:21 AM.

[ARCH3TYP3]

In the current PC version A classes (sans zerker) can get rekt in a split second in at least five ways: pred's double salvo, turkey salvo, infil's full EOC alpha, heat gren or slug ss (+det) with the ability. Some of these cannot be dependably avoided.

I think A classes need more hp (+50); this ttk is too little.

While an extra 50 HP would seem to buffer an A class against an alpha strike, do you think it may carry over an extra, unbalancing effect during more "regular" play?
I ask simply because alpha strikes seem much less common than the typical "secondary-fire-close-the-distance-because-I-hit-you-and you-missed-type" confrontations which often occur at mid range on most of the current maps.

[DerMax]

While an extra 50 HP would seem to buffer an A class against an alpha strike, do you think it may carry over an extra, unbalancing effect during more "regular" play?
I ask simply because alpha strikes seem much less common than the typical "secondary-fire-close-the-distance-because-I-hit-you-and you-missed-type" confrontations which often occur at mid range on most of the current maps.

Of course you'd have to adjust HP for all the classes. ~400/600/800, I say.

 

ButtSatisfier, your experience differs from mine, it seems. I personally know from the times I mained heat gren that once you receive the GL+ charged heat+det salvo (under ability), you're not going anywhere if you're not right next to cover (and even then you're probably done for). Infil's alpha is not too difficult to land in a CQC 1v1 situation against a scout, which I have done countless times (and if my ping weren't 80 but, say, 40, it'd be a piece of cake). And Pred's double salvo is a very real thing that I'm really tired of.

[crockrocket]

If you're in a mech that can be one shotted, that's simply the trade-off for the higher mobility you get. How often do we all hear "scout is OP"?

 

Most of the time I find that if you just melt completely, that means you just stepped into a very bad place, and quite often you're getting hit by multiple mechs in those situations. 

[StubbornPuppet]

^Right.  And that's a part of the point I was going for:  Whether or not a player is able to turn the tables after having an opponent get the drop on them, it is always more enjoyable and satisfying to have enough of an opportunity to try.

 

I would agree completely that the person who gets the drop should win the encounter most of the time.  What I don't like, what makes it "not fun" is when the encounter consists of "SURPRISE MOTHER FUZZER!!! BOOM!, you're dead".  That situation, to me, just sucks.  That is why I don't like twitch shooters AT ALL.  I can "hang" in Modern Warfare and its other clones, giving as much as I get, but I don't play because I want to engage with and have battles with my opponents.  I do not find much thrill in killing an opponent in 2 seconds or less.  And I sure as hell don't like dying that fast.

 

The more time I have to "engage" with opponents and have a duel of sorts, the more fun it is TO ME.  I like the "dance", even if I know I'm most likely going to lose, I'd rather enjoy the nail-biting attempt to do 'something', even if it's futile.  And with that extended time, there's always the opportunity for a teammate to be just close enough to notice and step in to turn it into a real "battle".  That's the part where a slower time to kill turns makes the difference in how you positioned yourself strategically.  If you were wise enough to remain within range of your team and stay alert, that extra couple of seconds has paid off before you ever even made it to the point where everything becomes about your reflexes - the person with the faster reflexes still has the advantage, but it allows that forethought to carry some actual weight.

 

I still regularly encounter duels like this.  It's not as if with the TTK changes made years ago, the game has changed and this doesn't happen anymore.  You speak as if this type of encounter has more or less disappeared from the game.

 

You're right.  I meant to put a statement in there to clarify that I was speaking "generally", not specifically about Hawken.  I did like Hawken a lot better before Ascension and Steam... but the reason I keep playing it is because I still get these kinds of encounters.

 

What confuses me is how so many people treat these forums as a place to attempt to "alpha-strike" and frag (humiliate) their opponents (aka people with whom they feel they disagree).  Jeesh, we're just having a discussion and expressing our preferences and opinions.

[DerMax]

If you're in a mech that can be one shotted, that's simply the trade-off for the higher mobility you get. How often do we all hear "scout is OP"?

 

Most of the time I find that if you just melt completely, that means you just stepped into a very bad place, and quite often you're getting hit by multiple mechs in those situations. 

If your scout's HP is at about 80%, and you're in safety near your teammates chipping away from the enemy line, are you in a bad position? No? Well, you're one sharpie powershot away from watching your mech's ragdoll doing a goofy somersault.

 

If you're scared for your life every time you round the corner because there might be some gren or raider (or worse, Pred who just knows) there waiting for you, is the whole map a very bad place?

[Mevaker]

If you're in a mech that can be one shotted, that's simply the trade-off for the higher mobility you get. How often do we all hear "scout is OP"?

 

Most of the time I find that if you just melt completely, that means you just stepped into a very bad place, and quite often you're getting hit by multiple mechs in those situations. 

 

^ this is a definite factor, and again, My opinion at least, is if you do something stupid, you are most likely going to die no matter what. I will agree with CraftyDus on the opinion that this game is definitely not for everyone, and some people will die no matter how long you delay the inevitable. However He also brings up a valid Point that it might be fun (for casuals and newbies more so, perhaps) to slow down the pace of game, (which TTK is a factor and function of) just enough to give them a better understanding of how trades work. Certainly halving everyone's damage and doubling their health is too extreme a measure, no one wants to sit there looking at someone and burn up everything they have to see minimum returns on their efforts, what I propose(as my sole opinion) would be to widen the entrance threshold while still making the game fun to play at higher levels, if you get alpha'd you're still likely to lose the engagement, but at least you can learn how it happened and after it's happened enough times, you can learn how to counterplay it.(with the advice of those more experienced as is the case often times).

Edited by Mevaker, 19 August 2016 - 09:19 AM.

[harmless_kittens]

If your scout's HP is at about 80%, and you're in safety near your teammates chipping away from the enemy line, are you in a bad position? No? Well, you're one sharpie powershot away from watching your mech's ragdoll doing a goofy somersault.

 

If you're scared for your life every time you round the corner because there might be some gren or raider (or worse, Pred who just knows) there waiting for you, is the whole map a very bad place?

I'm sorry to be dense, but isn't this just the inherent danger of running around in a tiny mech?  If you could choose to be an animal, for instance, and you willingly picked a cricket instead of an elephant, then occasionally you're going to get stepped on.  If we take away the ability to destroy A-Class mechs with very few hits then you will sway the entire game DRAMATICALLY in favor of those tiny mechs with a big way.  50 extra hp might mean very little to a mech which already has 800 hp, but its a HUGE swing to a little mech.  There's a reason the game starts new players off with a mech that can't be "one-shotted".  A-Class has always been, for me at least, the mechs for "advanced" players who know how to move, which is why I don't use them.  But I see no reason to change this.  Yes, you can be killed very quickly if you don't dodge or don't see your opponent.  In the meantime, you can move and dodge (and get away) faster than almost any other mech out there, and often do damage more quickly as well.  What's wrong with this trade-off?

Edited by harmless_kittens, 19 August 2016 - 09:32 AM.

[crockrocket]

If your scout's HP is at about 80%, and you're in safety near your teammates chipping away from the enemy line, are you in a bad position? No? Well, you're one sharpie powershot away from watching your mech's ragdoll doing a goofy somersault.

 

If you're scared for your life every time you round the corner because there might be some gren or raider (or worse, Pred who just knows) there waiting for you, is the whole map a very bad place?

 

That's why positioning and general awareness is important. *shrug*

[DM30]

If your scout's HP is at about 80%, and you're in safety near your teammates chipping away from the enemy line, are you in a bad position? No? Well, you're one sharpie powershot away from watching your mech's ragdoll doing a goofy somersault.

 

If you're scared for your life every time you round the corner because there might be some gren or raider (or worse, Pred who just knows) there waiting for you, is the whole map a very bad place?

 

If the Scout knows that there's a Sharpshooter on the enemy team and exposes itself to getting shot by it when not at full health, then yes, that absolutely is a bad position. If the Scout was actually "in safety" then the SS wouldn't be able to hit it.

 

The risks of a low health pool are part of the adrenaline of playing an A class. Know what's on the other team, and make positioning decisions accordingly. Like ButtSatisfier and others have said already, if you get instagibbed it's because you put yourself in that position, either knowingly or through ignorance. Both cases are the gibb-ee's fault.

Edited by DM30, 19 August 2016 - 09:33 AM.

[DerMax]

I'm sorry to be dense, but isn't this just the inherent danger of running around in a tiny mech?  If you could choose to be an animal, for instance, and you willingly picked a cricket instead of an elephant, then occasionally you're going to get stepped on.  If we take away the ability to destroy A-Class mechs with very few hits then you will sway the entire game DRAMATICALLY in favor of those tiny mechs with a big way.  50 extra hp might mean very little to a mech which already has 800 hp, but its a HUGE swing to a little mech.  There's a reason the game starts new players off with a mech that can't be "one-shotted".  A-Class has always been, for me at least, the mechs for "advanced" players who know how to move, which is why I don't use them.  But I see no reason to change this.  Yes, you can be killed very quickly if you don't dodge or don't see your opponent.  In the meantime, you can move and dodge (and get away) faster than almost any other mech out there, and often do damage more quickly as well.  What's wrong with this trade-off?

The inherent danger is there alright, but there is no reward. Ideally, you're supposed to be a glass cannon in an A class mech -- with little HP but high mobility and high dps. The first two parts are there, but the last one isn't: your dps is comparable to that of the other classes. No, you can't do damage "more quickly" in an A class.

 

That's why positioning and general awareness is important. *shrug*

You have to be an insane player to successfully use these two to escape getting, for example, powershot from god-knows-where when engaging in what you though was a 1v1 fight.

 

If the Scout knows that there's a Sharpshooter on the enemy team and exposes itself to getting shot by it when not at full health, then yes, that absolutely is a bad position. If the Scout was actually "in safety" then the SS wouldn't be able to hit it.

 

The risks of a low health pool are part of the adrenaline of playing an A class. Know what's on the other team, and make positioning decisions accordingly. Like ButtSatisfier and others have said already, if you get instagibbed it's because you put yourself in that position, either knowingly or through ignorance. Both cases are the gibb-ee's fault.

Except for Uptown and Wreckage, you have to go into complete hiding in order to not expose yourself to a sharpie. After a sharpie powershots you, everything that touches you afterwards kills you.

[CraftyDus]

 

What confuses me is how so many people treat these forums as a place to attempt to "alpha-strike" and frag (humiliate) their opponents (aka people with whom they feel they disagree).  Jeesh, we're just having a discussion and expressing our preferences and opinions.

 

sorry you feel that way

 

 "get bent". 

 

why you mad though?

[harmless_kittens]

I humbly beg to differ on A-Class not being to "out-DPS" other mechs.  There is a reason that other mechs don't get the speed + weapon loadout of the Scout, or the special ability of the Berzerker.  I think the "theory" was that the mobility of a Zerker, Scout and Infiltrator should enable them to go toe to toe with a heavier mech like a Rocketeer or a Grendadier.  And "in practice", I have seen this happen again and again.  I have been killed hundreds of times by a light mech when I was at 100% in a heavy.  But then again I am a below average player.  I think what you may have discovered are highly skilled heavy players that know how to defeat even the best light mech players.  But I'm not sure this shows a flaw in the game so much as "the better player will usually win".  The advantage of heavies is that they have more "breathing room" if they miss a dodge or make a similar mistake mid-duel.

[CraftyDus]

 There is a reason that other mechs don't get the speed + weapon loadout of the Scout, or the special ability of the Berzerker.

 

Raider and Grenadier

[DerMax]

I humbly beg to differ on A-Class not being to "out-DPS" other mechs.  There is a reason that other mechs don't get the speed + weapon loadout of the Scout, or the special ability of the Berzerker.  I think the "theory" was that the mobility of a Zerker, Scout and Infiltrator should enable them to go toe to toe with a heavier mech like a Rocketeer or a Grendadier.  And "in practice", I have seen this happen again and again.  I have been killed hundreds of times by a light mech when I was at 100% in a heavy.  But then again I am a below average player.  I think what you may have discovered are highly skilled heavy players that know how to defeat even the best light mech players.  But I'm not sure this shows a flaw in the game so much as "the better player will usually win".  The advantage of heavies is that they have more "breathing room" if they miss a dodge or make a similar mistake mid-duel.

I suggest you first get gud and then start playing couch expert; a lot of what you've said in this and the previous posts is empirically wrong. This is an ad hominem, but a warranted one.

[harmless_kittens]

I suggest you first get gud and then start playing couch expert; a lot of what you've said in this and the previous posts is empirically wrong. This is an ad hominem, but a warranted one.

Edited.  Not gonna get down in the gutter.

Edited by harmless_kittens, 19 August 2016 - 10:44 AM.

[ARCH3TYP3]

Of course you'd have to adjust HP for all the classes. ~400/600/800, I say.

Ah! Now I see. Thanks.

[TheButtSatisfier]

I suggest you first get gud and then start playing couch expert; a lot of what you've said in this and the previous posts is empirically wrong. This is an ad hominem, but a warranted one.

 

First: be nice. Kittens has been respectful, inquisitive, and humble this entire thread.

 

Kittens isn't stating empirically wrong arguments. The increased mobility of A-class mechs means that whoever is shooting at them will suffer an aim penalty. As a result, their DPS output will be decreased.

 

A smart pilot will have to determine in what situation to use A-class mechs against heavier classes, but that's the kind of situational awareness that is required for effective mech piloting across all mechs - use it to their strengths, and avoid putting them in situations where they're weak. Granted, equally skilled Grenadier and Scout pilots engaging in a open field will probably see the Scout losing most engagements, but the Scout's corner play and kiting can bring about some balance.

 

Lastly, drink.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 19 August 2016 - 11:57 AM.

[DerMax]

First: be nice. Kittens has been respectful, inquisitive, and humble this entire thread.

 

Kittens isn't stating empirically wrong arguments. The increased mobility of A-class mechs means that whoever is shooting at them will suffer an aim penalty. As a result, their DPS output will be decreased.

 

A smart pilot will have to determine in what situation to use A-class mechs against heavier classes, but that's the kind of situational awareness that is required for effective mech piloting across all mechs - use it to their strengths, and avoid putting them in situations where they're weak. Granted, equally skilled Grenadier and Scout pilots engaging in a open field will probably see the Scout losing most engagements, but the Scout's corner play and kiting can bring about some balance.

 

Lastly, drink.

First: it is up to me to decide whether or not to be nice to someone. I deliberately chose to be not nice to kittens to force-feed him the red pill.

 

Kittens is stating empirically wrong arguments. The A class aim penalty only extends to low-to-mid mmr bracket players. For high- and top-tier pilots this penalty progressively diminishes, up to close-to-zero numbers (Meraple being a good example on the EU side). In any close-to-mid range combat, corner play or not, I can trash any A class EU player in my heat gren -- and it is not about my skill level; it's about the incredible difference between the mech power levels.

 

TPG has restrictions on the team composition. Why? Because, if I recall correctly, the first season showed that teams heavily favored B and especially C classes. Why? Because they're stronger.

 

Lastly, don't drink. It's bad for ya.

[Mech Mod 7]

Actually it's up to the community guidelines which are quite clear; be civil and respectful to fellow members of this community.

 

Keep it on track, folks.

[CraftyDus]

Keep it on track, folks.

 

subject is counterplay and ttk in hawken

how long does the average marriage last in ffvx?

[TheButtSatisfier]

First: it is up to me to decide whether or not to be nice to someone. I deliberately chose to be not nice to kittens to force-feed him the red pill.

 

Oh, of course. It's entirely your right to be a dbag for a bad reason. That said, it's odd in this context because demeaning Kittens does nothing to increase the chances that suddenly he'll appreciate your argument more. That goes for just about everyone here. So, since you seem to think otherwise, I'll tell you this: you aren't going to spread the good word by being an ass.

 

Kittens is stating empirically wrong arguments. The A class aim penalty only extends to low-to-mid mmr bracket players. For high- and top-tier pilots this penalty progressively diminishes, up to close-to-zero numbers (Meraple being a good example on the EU side). 

 

While the aim penalty does indeed diminish as player skill goes up, it's absolutely still relevant. Even at very high skill levels the penalty does not diminish to near-zero levels. Go into a private server, grab any highly skilled player you can find, get into a scout, and start making evasive maneuvers out in the open at varying distances. Their hit percentage will drop somewhere between 15-40% depending on distance, cover, the player's aim, etc. Those are game-changing figures.

 

Also keep in mind that maneuverability isn't just about breaking a player's aim mid-dodge; it's also about being able to get behind cover more quickly. Each extra second a B or C class is forced to do corner play with an A class is an additional second it's being damaged by other mechs given their size and lack of maneuverability.

 

TPG has restrictions on the team composition. Why? Because, if I recall correctly, the first season showed that teams heavily favored B and especially C classes. Why? Because they're stronger.

 

Can someone from inside TPG knowledge confirm that this is the (a?) reason why there's comp restrictions? 

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 19 August 2016 - 01:41 PM.

[CraftyDus]

 The A class aim penalty only extends to low-to-mid mmr bracket players. For high- and top-tier pilots this penalty progressively diminishes, up to close-to-zero numbers (Meraple being a good example on the EU side).

 

looking at meraple's primary stats, he's in the mid to low 30% on many of his most-used primaries

a better example would be kopra

[Meraple]

looking at meraple's primary stats, he's in the mid to low 30% on many of his most-used primaries

a better example would be kopra

I was a bad player (for my current standards) for a long time.

Even when I got gud, I didn't peak for very long before I lost interest.

 

My hitscan sustain+tow aim is definitely better than Kopra's.

He's much better at aiming about everything else, though.

[CraftyDus]

 

Can someone from inside TPG knowledge confirm that this is the (a?) reason why there's comp restrictions? 

 

 

We restricted classes in s1 tdm to give Xacius and his team HyperFriendshipCannon (name's a metaphor)    the highest possible advantage against Nept's team of paid ex-UT pub ladder champions UnobtaniumUnicorns. It was going to be really great. I mean really really great guys.

 

 

But when that fell through because of Smite(?) we eased the class restrictions to better position Nept and his team of contrarian MajesticMooseofCanada (but not as majestic as the moose in NH, who btw are dying off due to ticks, thanks Nept) to gain advantage in the forthcoming s2 missile assault. That plan worked "handsomely".

 

 

 

No, but really all bs aside.

 

Class restrictions were an effort to retain the variety available to Hawken in a competitive environment, in order to showcase the strengths and weaknesses inherent in a mixed composition within a team; by including some of every class.

Balance.

[CraftyDus]

I was a bad player (for my current standards) for a long time.

Even when I got gud, I didn't peak for very long before I lost interest.

 

My hitscan sustain+tow aim is definitely better than Kopra's.

He's much better at aiming about everything else, though.

 

Ya  for what it's worth , everyone's accuracy stats diminish the more thousands of kills on a particular primary they use.

Unless you are like this one guy I met at band camp, who keeps a mech set aside that he ONLY uses for comp, in order to preserve his accuracy stats.

 

 

I bet on any account or mech you pick up now and play fresh, after a few thousand kills your accuracy stats will be drastically better than your legacy account.

 

You are astronomically better than you were when you started on those mechs and the accuracy stats likely suffered from those days.

[crockrocket]

We restricted classes in s1 tdm to give Xacius and his team HyperFriendshipCannon (name's a metaphor) the highest possible advantage against Nept's team of paid ex-UT pub ladder champions UnobtaniumUnicorns. It was going to be really great. I mean really really great guys.


But when that fell through because of Smite(?) we eased the class restrictions to better position Nept and his team of contrarian MajesticMooseofCanada (but not as majestic as the moose in NH, who btw are dying off due to ticks, thanks Nept) to gain advantage in the forthcoming s2 missile assault. That plan worked "handsomely".



No, but really all bs aside.

Class restrictions were an effort to retain the variety available to Hawken in a competitive environment, in order to showcase the strengths and weaknesses inherent in a mixed composition within a team; by including some of every class.
Balance.

Iirc not smite but Wildstar (not that it's important)