21 replies to this topic

[MomOw]

I've seen a lot of discussions about UI, stability etc, but nothing about balance.

 

I'm sad that the raider was nerfed, I'm glad that the AR G2-A is now legit, I'm puzzled about the new rocketeer, the 36M seems a bit odd : either you have a pocket tech and orblording, or you get rekt.

[coldform]

the lack of complete reliability on hitreg kinda steers most folks from making judgement calls on that sort of stuff.  to be fair the situation with the servers(at least NA) has been made apparent, so here's to hoping that they find a different host.

 

that being said - shotguns feel less potent - damage falloff seems a little hokey, along with "spread" (?)

 

I don't like the fact that raider's walk speed doesnt get increased in blitz mode either. takes away some of the charm raider had.

 

36M has its heart in the right place - mechanically speaking, it's a good concept. it's fast AF when in normal mode, and it's meant to be a quick point defense choice - get in fast, turret down, and hose the enemy with some bullets to either keep them at bay or push them back.  

 

the problem with that is it can't really tank a whole lot of damage, and you would need superhuman battle awareness to use its strengths effectively.

 

not a good mech on PC, but I bet it shreds on console in the hands of someone with decent aim.

Edited by coldform, 26 May 2017 - 02:30 AM.

[Ezodev]

Either I'm just really bad at adapting to the post-update game, or Scout is much worse now. And it seems that much less people play Scout now, so it's probably the second option.

 

I've played few matches post-update, mostly with Scout... and I've dropped from ~~2080 MMR to 1890. WTF.

[MomOw]

the spinning time of the 36M + the lack of durability are really punishing, compare it to an AR G2A : same HP, comparable speed...

[William_Adama]

is it just me or is the rocketeer have more speed or was it  soo lagy that  it just looked like it was moving slowly.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Either I'm just really bad at adapting to the post-update game, or Scout is much worse now. And it seems that much less people play Scout now, so it's probably the second option.

 

I've played few matches post-update, mostly with Scout... and I've dropped from ~~2080 MMR to 1890. WTF.

 

G2.  My K/D is down slightly using it, I agree Flak seems weaker, and I take too much damage too quickly, but it's viable.

[Bad_BennyAK]

 

 

36M has its heart in the right place - mechanically speaking, it's a good concept. it's fast AF when in normal mode, and it's meant to be a quick point defense choice - get in fast, turret down, and hose the enemy with some bullets to either keep them at bay or push them back.  

 

the problem with that is it can't really tank a whole lot of damage, and you would need superhuman battle awareness to use its strengths effectively.

 

not a good mech on PC, but I bet it shreds on console in the hands of someone with decent aim.

Yeah,  I've been trying to come to terms with the 36M,  and almost got it.  The lack of armor is shocking, almost like a vanguard, but without the maneuverability.  Like you said..  sprint,  hunker down,  blast away.  get up,  repeat.   I almost find towering a handicap,  as the defensive bonus of tower mode is offset by the vulnerability  of the transition.  The appeal of 2 monster gatling guns is too much to resist though, and I've come to accept that mech PLACEMENT is key...  you have to be very situationally aware.   no slacking like a Brawler in tower mode.  And loadout is important,   shields are essential,  maybe even some orbs.  

But that's part of what I love about Hawken,  some mechs come with their apparent handicaps, and you need to learn HOW to use them.   That's the trick. love it! 

[Ezodev]

G2.  My K/D is down slightly using it, I agree Flak seems weaker, and I take too much damage too quickly, but it's viable.

 

I didn't think I needed to clarify that, but of course I use G2 Scout. G1 doesn't have any advantages over it, so there would be no point in that.

 

It's hard to say what exactly is wrong... but something is. I miss constantly. Most of my tows miss. Even when I explode them mid-air, they still hardly ever do damage. These new mechs do wayy too much damage. And due to decreased HP, even shitty bruisers are more dangerous now.

 

And new mechs... I've played some Vytro. On bunker, at least, I just walked around, and shot people with this laser. 0 skill, 0 thinking - and I was MVP. And that was not a nooby server. Yes, it has weaknesses. But if someone knows how to aim(I don't), it seems nigh impossible to win with this thing using A class. 

Edited by Ezodev, 26 May 2017 - 03:16 AM.

[Morquedeas]

Reloaded's balancing decisions have been questionable, at best.  For the console release, they basically put mech stats in a blender.  I am still baffled by this move, you literally cannot make sweeping changes across the board and expect things to be MORE balanced, and most of the changes had neither rhyme nor reason.

 

One exmple that stands out is the G2 scout stats, .7 second dodge cd and 43 m/s boost speed?  Who in their right minds thought this was a good idea?  Coupled with the smaller hitboxes and worse hitreg, this mech will be insanity, and the speed increase is well worth the loss of 20 hp.  And 1.8 seconds dodge cd on Brawler? 

 

Last I checked, Blitz still increases walk speeds too.  However with the hitbox size reduction (this change totally blows my mind) and the new, significantly worse hit reg, Raider has been shafted hard.  Spread/pellet weapons have always been sub-par, but they are worse than ever now.

 

The only thing they changed that was smart was the nerf to orblording, which they didn't really do very well.  I'm all for the nerfs, but 3% on the one slot extractor makes it completely pointless.

 

I really have no idea what compels the devs to make the balance changes they do, but I'm hoping they'll ask for a little more input before doing anything from here on.  I honestly think we'd be better off reverting all mech stats to the old PC version, then going forward from there.

 

P.S. The 36m is atrocious, and will probably supplant the rocketeer as the worst mech in Hawken.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

One exmple that stands out is the G2 scout stats, .7 second dodge cd and 43 m/s boost speed?  Who in their right minds thought this was a good idea?  Coupled with the smaller hitboxes and worse hitreg, this mech will be insanity, and the speed increase is well worth the loss of 20 hp.  And 1.8 seconds dodge cd on Brawler? 

 

 

My K/D is down slightly with it, due to the poor hitreg making me take longer with each target, and the reduced TTK/health pool and increased enemy damage.  To me, the G2 is a slight nerf in the new meta; I think the G2 Scout is too weak at the moment. 

 

I think there are other balance problems which should be addressed first.

[Ezodev]

I just don't understand philosophy behind this update. Why wasn't it incremental? Why couldn't they have fixed some performance issues, then issue an update. Implement that G2 system for old mechs if they really needed to, update. Then add some new mech, update. Check if it doesn't ruin gameplay.

 

Instead we waited for a few years, and got an update which changes everything. Which is not a good thing. It invalidated most of the experience gained through these hours of gameplay.

[MomOw]

the G2 scout is ... well... with 40fps and a low cost 800 DPI mouse I just can't track him with sustained weapons

 

so I think that the G2 scout will be even more a scrublord stomp feast in lower level pubs.

Edited by MomOw, 26 May 2017 - 03:24 AM.

[Ezodev]

Reloaded's balancing decisions have been questionable, at best.  For the console release, they basically put mech stats in a blender.  I am still baffled by this move, you literally cannot make sweeping changes across the board and expect things to be MORE balanced, and most of the changes had neither rhyme nor reason.

 

One exmple that stands out is the G2 scout stats, .7 second dodge cd and 43 m/s boost speed?  Who in their right minds thought this was a good idea?  Coupled with the smaller hitboxes and worse hitreg, this mech will be insanity, and the speed increase is well worth the loss of 20 hp.  And 1.8 seconds dodge cd on Brawler? 

 

 

I don't know. If I didn't play the game after the update, I'd have thought that you are right. These stats are worth these 20hp. 

 

And I still think that probably they are. But as I said, I've dropped 200 mmr in the span of like, 10 matches. Playing this G2. Which means that it likely IS relatively nerfed. 

 

Yes, it's better than old Scout. But some other mechs, probably mostly new ones, gained more. So overall, Scout G2 is worse.

 

 

I wonder, is it even concievable that as you said, devs will revert changes to basic mechanics temporarily? I mean, keep all the other changes. But remove G2 and new mechs and rethink them. Return old hitboxes for now. 

 

I guess not. 

Edited by Ezodev, 26 May 2017 - 03:29 AM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

the G2 scout is ... well... with 40fps and a low cost 800 DPI mouse I just can't track him with sustained weapons

 

so I think that the G2 scout will be even more a scrublord stomp feast in lower level pubs.

 

I agree.  Kirby, Ord seem to have greater potential for this kind of abuse.

 

I will start a different thread on G2 meta.

[MomOw]

I agree.  Kirby, Ord seem to have greater potential for this kind of abuse.

 

I will start a different thread on G2 meta.

 

I don't know. a flak / heat scout have a good burst capability which is more punishing.

[DingdongJR]

I don't run the show I wish I did but from what I have seen the weapon and mech balancing is later down the line. Right now the devs have some bigger and more complex concerns that they are working on. 

[Meraple]

I really dislike the more restrictive turncap.

It's bearable on B-classes, but it's so restrictive on C-classes that playing them is no longer enjoyable for me.

[Ezodev]

I don't run the show I wish I did but from what I have seen the weapon and mech balancing is later down the line. Right now the devs have some bigger and more complex concerns that they are working on. 

 

Balance is one of the most important things in an online FPS game. Other as important thing is performance. Without that, it doesn't matter if they add gazillions of new mechs, maps and other content. These are basic. What is more important than that?

 

Only playerbase. But for Hawken to be popular it has to be balanced and to perform well.

 

And there is something very wrong with performance. Today I've noticed that during FPS drops my GPU & CPU isn't even working at 100% load. So when I get these frequent drops to 40fps it's not because there's so much to calculate that my HW is overwhelmed. It's because game waits for something, probably. Which is bad.

[Morquedeas]

My K/D is down slightly with it, due to the poor hitreg making me take longer with each target, and the reduced TTK/health pool and increased enemy damage.  To me, the G2 is a slight nerf in the new meta; I think the G2 Scout is too weak at the moment. 

 

I think there are other balance problems which should be addressed first.

 

Yeah the scout definitely isn't too weak right now, and I doubt it'll ever be less than A tier in my lifetime.  The effects of the new and terrible hit reg are variable and difficult to quantify, whereas the stat changes its received are unequivocal buff.  And there is no "new meta," its only been like 3 days.  But I absolutely agree that there are bigger balancing problems right now, one of which is the dodge cd's changes on all mechs.  They should really just revert the dodge cd's back to the 1, 1.2, 1.4 seconds for A, B, and C class mechs, respectively, and then balance them from there.  The Scout and Brawler dodge cd's are just the polar extremes I used to support my point.

 

 

I don't know. If I didn't play the game after the update, I'd have thought that you are right. These stats are worth these 20hp. 

 

And I still think that probably they are. But as I said, I've dropped 200 mmr in the span of like, 10 matches. Playing this G2. Which means that it likely IS relatively nerfed. 

 

Yes, it's better than old Scout. But some other mechs, probably mostly new ones, gained more. So overall, Scout G2 is worse.

 

 

I wonder, is it even concievable that as you said, devs will revert changes to basic mechanics temporarily? I mean, keep all the other changes. But remove G2 and new mechs and rethink them. Return old hitboxes for now. 

 

I guess not. 

 

Ignore your mmr changes, everyone lost a bunch of mmr with the patch I think.  Scrimbot says my mmr is 2317 and that hasn't changed since the patch, whereas on the leaderboard I'm much lower.  And most of the new mechs, with the exception of maybe the Vytro, are bad.  Ord's passive was over nerfed, I Civ is useless against PC players who know how to move, the 36m is terrible like I said, Kirby is kinda "eh", and I haven't actually see anyone play the Jobs yet.  Most of the old mechs suffered from stuff like hp reductions and dodge cd changes.  Except the Vg which randomly got like +100 hp (why???).

 

 

I don't run the show I wish I did but from what I have seen the weapon and mech balancing is later down the line. Right now the devs have some bigger and more complex concerns that they are working on. 

 

This would be a great mentality, if they had thought this way before making tons of stat changes with the console release, then balance would be far less of an issue.  But yes, getting hit reg fixed, and making the UI more function should take precedent.

 

 

I really dislike the more restrictive turncap.

It's bearable on B-classes, but it's so restrictive on C-classes that playing them is no longer enjoyable for me.

 

This is the first I've heard of turncap changes.  What did they do exactly?  Imo things like turncap and hitboxes are things they really shouldn't be touching as they have arguably the biggest impact on gameplay and balance.

[peacecraftSLD]

I don't feel any difference in my Bruiser. I am still doing fine with the G1 version. I haven't unlocked the G2 version cause I am lazy but I did on the console.

[MomOw]

I haven't tried turret mode (beside the 36M), did they changed anything or is it still a very situationnal ability ?

 

I agree with some other comments : we needed just slight rebalance and server improvement. I understand that paid new content (in a way or another) was required, but meh, if they want to work on balance there is a lot to do.

Edited by MomOw, 26 May 2017 - 11:35 PM.

[MomOw]

To me Kerby and Ord bury the reaper, both fill the same slot (mid range pew pew). But Kerby has more DPS and this time the ability is useful (?), Ord do the same as a slug / dabot reaper, but with a better unscoped accuracy and a way to increase damage.