98 replies to this topic

[EMEUTIER]

It's not about getting 'more money', Hawken has never been able to sustain itself. This is about keeping the game alive at this point so that the folks who want to play on all platforms still can. You read my quote the wrong way entirely.

 

Ok that is admirable and I commend that point, but why drasticly change the whole balance of the game and include obvious pay-to-win mechs with spammy weapon loadouts?

 

The game was great before. all it needed was regular patches, updated/new maps, LOTS more 'in-lore' cosmetic options, new balanced mechs and better advertising. This is only my uneducated opinion though.

[6ixxer]

All it needed was to keep the new owners interested or it wouldn't have been bought.

...that means we got some cheese.

remember... 30 mechs at launch... mechs monetize better than most other parts of the game.

 

Some of the mechs suggested by the community I'd buy immediately. Plus an alternate painted chassis.

I just hope that they still have it on their plans to implement some new weapons/abilities and get someone modelling new mechs.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

A little latin lesson, people.

 

Whenever, prima facie, it makes no sense for someone in the business world to do something, one should ask, cui bono?

 

On the surface of it, it looks pro bono publico, and that's how it's being portrayed.  But, a priori, there's gotta be quid pro quo.

 

Something that they get for the expense, sina qua non.

 

Possibilities:

• a catalog of Xbox, PS, PC titles which could be used to convince someone to invest in a future development (bank, invest cap, Contract Design)
• a playerbase
• licenses, IP, rights, other assets (e.g. art), and familiarity (probably with UT)
• operational experience and delivery networks, platforms (something Gamersfirst is providing for fee, perhaps?)

For all I know there's a second team working on a new game using Hawken's mechanics (but may or may not be Hawken 2.0), and they're keeping the lights on over here just 'cause, or we're a good test platform.

 

Take what's posted fuzzy bunny grano salis, and remember, aegroto dum anima est, spes est.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

snort.  'c um grano salis' ;)

[6ixxer]

The hOwken infrastructure/IP was worth the outlay, to a game company that was looking to expand their other titles using those methods.

 

I just hope there's enough value left in it to keep it running for quite a while despite its low monetization.

 

I dread the day that they give up on it and shutdown the servers. I can't see them making a private server system, as much as I would like it to happen.

I'd love if I could host a server for token subscription, and bear the cost of compute/transfer myself.

[valon79]

The hOwken infrastructure/IP was worth the outlay, to a game company that was looking to expand their other titles using those methods.

 

I just hope there's enough value left in it to keep it running for quite a while despite its low monetization.

 

I dread the day that they give up on it and shutdown the servers. I can't see them making a private server system, as much as I would like it to happen.

I'd love if I could host a server for token subscription, and bear the cost of compute/transfer myself.

 

 

Yes, or

 

they should have a decent start to make it into a Pve game for console and pc taht would boost player base and income.  arena and deathmatch style matches along with some area battles of the "prewar"   maps that are already in hawken. if it were me a prehawken style game to get it where it is now, build up some of the "old" ideas of mechs that are posted in wika.  

 

Progress them through the game upgrade make them a little more adjustable for weapons, speed, armor. add another primary selection, and some weight reducers into the internals to increase speed, lower HP, less fuel consumption. add internals to not use items to increase fuel tank size or add heat sinks.  use the different mech parts to increase/decrease speed/HP, say scout upper to zerker to lower hp but increase speed...10hp per .4 m/s or something. the elite parts to move from old hawken g1 to new hawken g2 stats.

 

Maybe i m looking to hard but looks doable(history is mostly made) and fairly easy(most of the coding has been done), with very few mecha games i would think it would sell pretty well.

[6ixxer]

so the TLDR is...

solo campaign (that somehow generates income?)+ 

stuff like they are currently doing and some stuff that will break balance +

underestimated ideas of how easy the coding would be?

 

I think that you have added a list of stuff that you want, and may not have been around to see some of the previous discussions on these topics.

 

PVE currently falls into the areas of the training mission(s), and the matches vs bots. The general thoughts from the community are that the old training was more interesting than the current VR version. Generally the campaign doesn't need to be more than 1-2 training areas, and then directing you into some bots matches. There is no money to me made from developing a campaign as player want it included at no cost rather than being DLC.

I personally would support the idea of reserving one mech that is only rewarded after completing training achievements that gradually introduce the more advanced skills. Not purchasable with MC/HC or included in bundles. If you skip the training then you just don't get it.

 

Will come back to items and code discussion later...

[6ixxer]

Progress them through the game upgrade make them a little more adjustable for weapons, speed, armor. add another primary selection,

 

and some weight reducers into the internals to increase speed, lower HP, less fuel consumption. add internals to not use items to increase fuel tank size or add heat sinks.  use the different mech parts to increase/decrease speed/HP, say scout upper to zerker to lower hp but increase speed...10hp per .4 m/s or something.

 

the elite parts to move from old hawken g1 to new hawken g2 stats.

there is already a progression that most people refer to as an unnecessary paywall. ie, from single slot internals to multislot, and primary weapon to alternate and prestige primary. I personally don't have a problem with it, but many see it as an issue. IMO, if you're impatient you should pay for stuff. Thats how the Devs earn. I don't see it as Pay2Win.

 

The devs have at least shown that they are thinking about adding internals, with afterburner and heavy armor. Some may say their ideas are bad, but I'm happy for them to throw stuff out and see what sticks. I wouldn't mind seeing more countering internals despite the objections by some that they shouldn't be forced to run an internal. I think that there should be an EMP duration reduction internal for those games riddled with EMPs. I think there should be an anti-scanner internal that keeps you off scanners when walking/stationary. I think there should be an anti-debuff internal that reduced the effect or M4M4 and Redox (and any future debuffs such as speed, etc). i see these as valid strategies and adding variety. you have a mech in your garage with a build with one of these internals and you pull it out when the game gets heavy in that tactic and you want a hard counter. Yin & Yang stuff. Internals that change one stat up and another down are mostly ok with the right values, but can be tough to balance for new pilots vs milge as they play very differently (imo they should be balanced to new pilots as the milge will find the meta).

 

You should be able to put any cosmetic part on your G2 that you pay to unlock. Cosmetics = income.

 

Lastly coding.

Most stuff is doable, but consider that the effort has to be repaid.

Don't assume that the coding could be partly there as a lot of code was thrown out with the console merge and needs to be redone from scratch. Existing code that may be there is possibly too broken to bother reusing.

Don't assume what will sell well. People on the internet are cheap. Some of them are REALLY cheap. I still look for value in what I buy online and what I see as value differs to many people.

Edited by 6ixxer, 15 August 2017 - 02:39 PM.

[valon79]

there is already a progression that most people refer to as an unnecessary paywall. ie, from single slot internals to multislot, and primary weapon to alternate and prestige primary. I personally don't have a problem with it, but many see it as an issue. IMO, if you're impatient you should pay for stuff. Thats how the Devs earn. I don't see it as Pay2Win.

 

 

 

Well, didn't think the console coding would have been scrapped but yeah i guess it could of.  I thought most or all of the ideas for a new console game not really for the existing.  for the most part, i like where it is at other than some badly needed fixes, but even the fixes won't help without more players.  need something to draw in more players.  Guessing they need more income also to get bugs fixed, you know more people/time to get to things.  We have seen more new players, but a lot of people are losing faith imo.

[6ixxer]

People lose faith because we now live in a throwaway world.

Why fix something when its so easy to move onto the next shiny toy?

 

People forget about the triad of choices (Cheap, Fast, Good)

People wanted Howken fixed fast and don't want to pay, so we got a heap of issues.

 

People now want Howken fixed fast and good, but don't think about what that would cost in dev resources and who will pay.

If people settle on cheap and good, we get what we have now (including repeated whinging about why it is taking so long, because they really wanted all three).

[valon79]

People lose faith because we now live in a throwaway world.

Why fix something when its so easy to move onto the next shiny toy?

 

People forget about the triad of choices (Cheap, Fast, Good)

People wanted Howken fixed fast and don't want to pay, so we got a heap of issues.

 

People now want Howken fixed fast and good, but don't think about what that would cost in dev resources and who will pay.

If people settle on cheap and good, we get what we have now (including repeated whinging about why it is taking so long, because they really wanted all three).

 

While i agree with you, your points are very valid.  yes a throwaway world is true, also based on time.  How long do you spend looking to play one game?  how much do you play now vs 1, 2 or even 4 years ago?  Have to come to the reality of who is gonna pay?  Most of the players are vets with many years in the game, most have the stuff already from paying, why would they put more in for the hope of getting something fixed?  Also are losing long time vets, great players, because they can't get into any games and got tired of smurfing.

 

 thus why I propose the idea of another console/pc video game(different from online) to generate income.  if as you say it's not likely then time to find something else...but think about why another company bought it, must have seen something or its a subsidiary buying to balance books?

 

I don't see it as a p2w either its time over money, if you don't want to play to get it then pay, I have a few times when I first started.  Can't think of anything that is crazy high priced or gives a huge advantage other than when we had the aimbot issues.  I m sure any helpful ideas would be welcome if mine isn't helpful, hey I tried.  I and many others like this game trying to make sure it stays and hope it gets better.

Edited by valon79, 16 August 2017 - 04:47 AM.

[Pumapaw]

CZeroFive good to see your still around I was sort of wondering.

[claisolais]

 

I don't see it as a p2w either its time over money

You dont see it doest mean it's not there.

While you might think G2s state difference can be solved by simply purchase it, since many of have already played for so long. Yes time will do.

Daily bonus also, does make it much easier even for the BS G2 Jobs's price. 

What you didn't see it's ppl that already paid for customizations. It is actually more like an insult to those who already paid. They will have to pay again on G2s, or using the stupid darker-webbed skin with stupid G2 word on their head. For Cupcake users, more so. 

Tell me how time solves that.

[StubbornPuppet]

You dont see it doest mean it's not there.

While you might think G2s state difference can be solved by simply purchase it, since many of have already played for so long. Yes time will do.

Daily bonus also, does make it much easier even for the BS G2 Jobs's price. 

What you didn't see it's ppl that already paid for customizations. It is actually more like an insult to those who already paid. They will have to pay again on G2s, or using the stupid darker-webbed skin with stupid G2 word on their head. For Cupcake users, more so. 

Tell me how time solves that.

 

And to add to this thought, just because people are able to earn enough over time to pay for a G2 mech, doesn't mean the entire concept of having a mech which is simply better is a good idea.  In fact, it's completely contrary to any concept of balance as the G2 mech always has the advantage when two equally matched players face off.  You cannot intentionally build a mech that is statistically superior to others without calling it "intentionally superior".  That is undeniably engineered to encourage a Pay-2-Win^TM mentality - even if the differences are small - even if two players in the same mech, one in a G1, the other in a G2, take exactly the same shots at one another... and the one in the G1 mech dies while the guy in the G2 mech has 1 point of health left... that is an imbalanced advantage for the G2.  And we're looking at a case where there would often be a 50HP difference between the two.

 

G2's need to be an incentive for challenging high-skilled players to step up and learn a more complicated to play mech - not a bold-faced incentive to spend money in order to be competitive.

[TangledMantis]

Isnt that the case with pretty much all sports? The more money you have the fancier the gear you can own to play that sport? No matter what you do in a competitive arena, someone is going to do whatever they can to gain that last bit of advantage. 

 

You train and train for the big bike race. You're fit and ready. You show up for the event and there is some guy with a fancy carbon-fiber framed bike. Hes in about the same shape as you. Within a few miles its obvious that the profile of his bike and the reduction in weight is making a difference for him. Hes not better than you, he just has a trump card. 

 

At least in Hawken, you can earn HC and get what you want without paying cash. You just have to put in the time. 

 

If G1 and G2 mechs create and unfair advantage and need to be fixed, we should make sure that everyone has the exact same ping too.

Edited by TangledMantis, 17 August 2017 - 10:32 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

Isnt that the case with pretty much all sports? The more money you have the fancier the gear you can own to play that sport? No matter what you do in a competitive arena, someone is going to do whatever they can to gain that last bit of advantage. 

 

You train and train for the big bike race. You're fit and ready. You show up for the event and there is some guy with a fancy carbon-fiber framed bike. Hes in about the same shape as you. Within a few miles its obvious that the profile of his bike and the reduction in weight is making a difference for him. Hes not better than you, he just has a trump card. 

 

At least in Hawken, you can earn HC and get what you want without paying cash. You just have to put in the time. 

 

If G1 and G2 mechs create and unfair advantage and need to be fixed, we should make sure that everyone has the exact same ping too.

 

Well, you can certainly parse this out into infinity and find cause to pick apart just about any situation to find disparities... but, just using your inclination to call this a "sport", most competitive sporting organizations will make thousands of regulations that dictate the equipments "minimum weight, maximum weight, max-min length, max-min diameter, permitted materials, etc.  They also set strict standards for the athletes themselves to prevent doping and other unnatural enhancements.  These are all things they can realistically control.

 

A player in a particular division or league will always have the same (or at least equal and approved) equipment as every other player.  You don't see a baseball team from the Amateurs being told they will be facing off against an MLB team this week?  You don't see auto races where a IMSA class car is being asked to jump in with the GT class and compete.  So on and so forth.

 

So, it's completely unrealistic for all players in an online game to be required to have the same exact ping... or the same exact computer (but console players have that part) - but you CAN have full control over the software application and ensure that they are all using balanced and controlled in-game equipment.

 

Everyone complained about how the mechs in the original early beta of Hawken could be slowly upgraded (by cash or grinding) and could have their stats jiggered about to find a superior "build"... and how this was an unfair advantage to those who had been playing longer, had spent more money, and/or who were "in the know" about the best possible settings.  And the Adhesive developers agreed and decided to change the mechs so these potential advantages didn't exist.  I recall that most everyone cheered that decision.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 17 August 2017 - 10:57 AM.

[valon79]

Well, you can certainly parse this out into infinity and find cause to pick apart just about any situation to find disparities... but, just using your inclination to call this a "sport", most competitive sporting organizations will make thousands of regulations that dictate the equipments "minimum weight, maximum weight, max-min length, max-min diameter, permitted materials, etc.  They also set strict standards for the athletes themselves to prevent doping and other unnatural enhancements.  These are all things they can realistically control.

 

A player in a particular division or league will always have the same (or at least equal and approved) equipment as every other player.  You don't see a baseball team from the Amateurs being told they will be facing off against an MLB team this week?  You don't see auto races where a IMSA class car is being asked to jump in with the GT class and compete.  So on and so forth.

 

So, it's completely unrealistic for all players in an online game to be required to have the same exact ping... or the same exact computer (but console players have that part) - but you CAN have full control over the software application and ensure that they are all using balanced and controlled in-game equipment.

 

Everyone complained about how the mechs in the original early beta of Hawken could be slowly upgraded (by cash or grinding) and could have their stats jiggered about to find a superior "build"... and how this was an unfair advantage to those who had been playing longer, had spent more money, and/or who were "in the know" about the best possible settings.  And the Adhesive developers agreed and decided to change the mechs so these potential advantages didn't exist.  I recall that most everyone cheered that decision.

 

What am I missing in your complaints, do you guys not have the same access to G2's as everyone else...are you 2 the only ones that can't get HC, or is your HC unable to get the G2's?

 

I don't see the difference from buying g1's prior to change vs now buying G2's.  Everyone has a different skill set that a mech will complement, and a weapon set.  

 

The couple of G2's that can only be bought aren't a huge difference from others but that is harder to say b/c don't see many of them.  Most to all f2p games have a "vet" system to give a slight edge in equipment. Is it right, or fair, yes because everyone has the access to do so. 

[TheButtSatisfier]

If G1 and G2 mechs create and unfair advantage and need to be fixed, we should make sure that everyone has the exact same ping too.

 

That's a hell of a leap.

 

As others have said, the issue most people have with the G2 mechs is that they represent a lazy design decision. It does nothing to enhance the experience of the gameplay except to move the goal post twice as far away. Reloaded increased the grind in this game (G2s) in hopes of spurring additional purchases from its playerbase. The only fatal flaw in their plan is that they didn't also make G3s and G4s, with each G(n+1) version being incrementally better than the previous one. If Reloaded's hypothesis that "more grind = more $" was sound then they could have been rolling in money by now.

 

G2 mechs also create an artificially higher ceiling for competitive players to bring a competition-ready mech to the field. Is the performance difference between a G1 and a G2 mech enough to change the outcome of a match? There's probably arguments for both sides, but if you're using a G1 then there's no way around that you're at some degree of a disadvantage. Extending the grind to negate that disadvantage is sleazy. Imagine if Blizzard made a G2 variant of every one of their Overwatch characters, and each G2 variant had slightly better skills than their G1 variant. Or, how about the same concept but League of Legends or Dota 2- they release G2 variant characters which have slightly better stats than their G1 variant.

 

Of course, in all of these examples, with a little extra cash you could just get that G2 variant right now instead of having to grind for it.

 

Imagine how the communities of Overwatch, Dota 2, and League would react.

 

In competitive esports you can customize your computer components, peripherals, Internet connection, everything between you and the game server so long as you're not hacking or cheating. This is accepted by the community because customization is a core tenet of PC gaming. Where we expect there to be fairness and balance is in the game itself. If everyone has to grind more to achieve that same level of balance for no other reason than because the devs wanted to spur purchases then the devs are stunting the growth of their community - competitive or otherwise.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 18 August 2017 - 04:46 PM.

[Zavier_]

I like mechs