AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:
What wild exaggerations of your position have I made_ I can't find them.
On the other hand, I have seen you say things like, " 'It's automatic and it can kill me, so it's unfair' ", " 'Remove them, it's OP!' ", and "game-breaking."
"You're strawmanning and arguing ad hominem."
I'm arguing your points and why I disagree with them, while simultaneously putting out my own suggestions that would make the battleship fairer without entirely removing its ability to shoot. I'm not arguing just because it's you, and I'm not saying dumb things like "Why not remove the AA and just have it always be manually shot_" Thus, you're guilty of doing that which you say you're not; ergo,
tu quoque.
AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:
Scaling is somewhat acceptable, but far from ideal.
Also, asking for a decent explanation of why Siege is the only mode that gives an advantage to teams for completing normal objectives is completely within reason. Hardly illogical.
Because it's the only mode in which it makes sense_ In COD4 you can call a helicopter after you kill five dudes in a row, in
any game mode... doesn't make sense either, and believe me, if you thought the battleship's offense was OP, the Helicopter would make you throw literal fits. You pretty much had to have a rocket launcher of some kind to take it out reasonably quickly, it would last for quite a long time, it'd make you dirt nap within a second or two, and if you were leading the match, it would always preferentially target you over anyone else. Oh, and it didn't go away even if you got killed, unlike a MG turret - you either blow it up or wait for it to leave, which takes about ninety seconds or so.
If this thing is doing 450 damage to a solo C-Class who keeps on moving, a 2/3 strength reduction for low player count would be about 150 damage, and for 1/3 strength, about 300. However, those numbers are likewise assuming that you are literally the only person getting shot, when in reality, most of the time it's being spread to your teammates as well, reducing direct damage numbers. The ship always only has two turrets and one rocket pod, IIRC - the only thing that keeps boosting are the number of engines, so if you really wanted to, as was also said, you could simply hang back, take out the MG turrets, and that will solve 95% of your problems (because the rockets really do only fire about as fast as from the Rocket Turret).
AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:
Except my counter of ships being suicidal wasn't a counter to the your "defenseless battleship" point, and I in fact quoted what I was addressing so you would know what I was countering. You then went on to argue for alternatives, which I suppose is a sticking point because I don't think there needs to be alternatives. Why don't I think there needs to be alternatives_ Because there's an entire team of people who are available to defend it themselves. The battleship doesn't need to be able to defend itself because the onus of defending the battleship should fall on the team.
And the enemy team can't go everywhere. Again, what is stopping your team from just keeping in the spawn room and pecking at the ship_ Absolutely nothing, and if the enemy team goes there, turrets will eventually chew them up and kill them.
There is a reason I made
very specific point of mentioning that.
Unless you'd rather have the spawn rooms have no protection at all - which I doubt - or make it so that the spawn rooms are covered and thus unable to see the ship, there needs to be some sort of capability for the ship to either defend itself, or for the defenders to be able to go after the team if they're shooting the ship. If we make the launching team defend the ship, but the attacking team fully able to shoot it from a safe place while protected by auto-turrets, it allows free attacks to the ship with your suggestion, since the turrets will damage and eventually destroy any enemy who gets close, meaning the only thing that would be able to safely and reliably defend against just popping it from the spawn room would be the ship itself.
For your suggestion to work, there needs to be further tweaks, and I'd feel that adding in those tweaks would be even worse; thus my suggestion of removing the ability for the enemy side to shoot down a launched battleship if your suggestion of removing battleship defenses is put into effect.
AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:
My counter of kamikaze collisions not making sense was in regard to you arguing that, thematically, removing weapons from battleships didn't make any sense. That's silly, because the whole of Siege mode makes little sense from any logical standpoint, so removing weapons is no less logical than any other thematic concept in it.
Games aren't ever fully logical. Look at a time-honored game mode, Capture the Flag: You risk getting killed to... take a flag. And if the enemy kills you, you drop it, and usually they just touch it and it magically reappears in their base. If you do capture the flag, the flag... mysteriously reappears in the enemy base.
Let's not argue logic in games, shall we_ When it comes down to logic or fun, games almost always opt for fun, not for logic.
AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:
And why do I accuse you of strawmanning_
If you want, I'll point out several cases where you never actually address questions I ask or points I make and then act like you've properly refuted them.
In fact, I'll even throw in all the examples where you completely ignore questions or arguments I made for free.
If you'd like to, feel free to. I'll gladly address them. The main point you wanted to make was on removal of battleship weapons, which I did clearly make an argument against, but if you really want to be nitpicky over it, be my guest. I'm assuming you mean things like "Why don't you get an advantage in DM/TDM/MA/etc." but I also think I answered that one.
AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:
So this, "Stop playing A-Class all the time, that's half the answer. You sacrifice speed for armor and you know that." and this, "That said, I can't ever remember really being shot by the thing to 1/2-1/3rd health. And yes, that includes playing as an A-Class, so really, how the heck are you moving so that it instant-targets you_" aren't comments on me personally and rather my position_
I hardly think so.
While it's true that I said that, the basic point is that if you are playing an A-Class, of course you're going to take more damage as a percent - 450 on a 850 mech is a bit more than half, but 450 on a 500 HP A-Class is something like 90%. However, as I also said, this is highly dependent on the number of people playing. If it's 2v2, yes, the ship will rip you up unless you take out its turrets. If it's 6v6, the thing isn't really going to do much more than scratch you, since it has two turrets with which it will be shooting six people. Ergo, why I also suggested that it be scaled by the number of players - this way it doesn't nearly kill you in a 2v2, but will do, at most, about 150 damage - significant, but not game breaking, especially when you can, indeed, shoot the things off if you want to.
AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:
Not to mention, "Because to be honest, this is almost like the turret argument you made which I also found ridiculous." hardly helps the idea that you're entirely neutral.
I found them ridiculous for the same reasons, which is that I don't feel they're nearly as OP as you make them out to be, although the turret did even less damage than the battleship does now, even before the nerf.
AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:
In short, I am very careful to try and avoid logical fallacies and such debate tactics so they don't bite me in the ass.
You can accuse me of hypocrisy, but I doubt you can prove it conclusively.
Accusing others of hypocrisy when they are indeed meeting your point is, in and of itself, hypocrisy. I didn't answer your minor fluff questions because that wasn't the point (The topic is "Remove the turrets," not "Why don't you get ships in DM/TDM/MA"), but if you really want me to answer them, I'll do so if it means that much to you.