139 replies to this topic

[defekt]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 24 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

And if the battleship never shot at players in the first place, can you honestly tell me that you'd have questioned why it didn't shoot_

Frankly, yes; it's a warship.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Etan, on November 24 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

The game mode is siege. I fee like the siege is over the AA more then a base. You as a team that launched your ship is clearly not at the AA yet and the enemies . This is to help you keep your ship in the air so you can win. And if the other team is better they still hold the AA and watch your ship go poof.

Okay, first things first.
When talking about the theory of balanced gameplay, assume that the opponents are of equal skill. So please, no more talk of "if the other team is better they'll hold the AA anyway" because that has no place in a discussion of balance.

So why should the launching team get an automatic advantage to keeping their ship in the air_
Why shouldn't they have to defend the AA with the same resources that the team trying to take the ship down has_
Why, in a fight between two equally skilled teams, should one get an advantage just for doing what they are supposed to do_

Let's flip this around and think about it a different way.
If the team that launches a battleship gets an advantage, why doesn't the team trying to take the battleship down get one_
If the attackers (launched battleship) get an advantage to holding the AA, shouldn't the defenders (kill battleship) get one to try and hold the AA too_

What if, instead of only the attackers getting an advantage from an attacking battleship, only the defenders gained an advantage by having their base fire artillery strikes at the attackers_

The defenders are playing the objective too, by trying to take/hold the AA, so why aren't they rewarded with an advantage_

[Sylhiri]

Playing an A class in Sahara, if the other team gets the battleship and your on your way to take the AA you usually and up with half health by the time you reach the AA. You basically have to go out of your way to find a safe location to heal so you don't get destroyed and it takes time, time you don't have.

Honestly if the enemy team is already at the AA then they have the advantage. They have several walls protecting them as well as multiple turrets placed around the building if they choose to. They also have higher ground on top of the building which is shielded by the AA missile launcher. So your pretty much not going to get the AA, which is even more apparent in smaller numbers and teams  with an extra player advantage like 3 v 2.

defekt, on November 24 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

Frankly, yes; it's a warship.

Warships generally don't kamikaze into buildings after lifting off a few miles away

Edited by Sylhiri, November 24 2012 - 12:29 PM.

[Roundlay]

Let’s face it. Talking about team balance in a vacuum is useful only to a point. The game is asymmetric in its nature by affording players the ability to buff their mechs behind the scenes.

Anywho, for the sake of argument, I certainly don’t have enough data to say one way or the other if this mechanic unbalances gameplay in a meaningful way, but I think it can be viewed more or less as the equivalent of a team wide DPS buff.

Anecdotally, I have been assaulted by an enemy battleship on numerous occasions, almost all of which were too inconsequential to register as a balance issue, which I think in a nutshell sums up the issue—too negligible to affect balance in a meaningful way_

Edited by Roundlay, November 24 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Roundlay, on November 24 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

Anecdotally, I have been assaulted by an enemy battleship on numerous occasions, almost all of which were too inconsequential to register as a balance issue, which I think in a nutshell sums up the issue—too negligible to affect balance in a meaningful way_

Arriving at the AA missing 1/3-1/2 your health is negligible_
Dying because the battleship landed a the last shot as you escaped and having to spend time respawing and traveling back is nebligible_
Being unable to repair because the battleship decided to shoot you while you repaired leaving your team one man down is negligible_

I'm sorry... what_

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, November 24 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[Necro]

I have a small suggestion, perhaps the defending team (not launched ship) can use extra EU if the other team has launched their ship to activate some sort of weaponry as well instead of removing the guns entirely.

This also gives player something to do with the extra eu they have when they are trying to get the AA. Maybe turrets around the AA or drones that fly around_

Perhaps they don't even attack player but the ships weapon systems instead_

just things to thing about instead of plain removing them.

[ItsThatGuy]

I agree especially if Siege mode is going to be Hawken's main eSports mode.

The problem is simple. If two teams are exactly equal, the outcome of the match will be determined by the randomness of an AI entity. Does it only shoot at the closest mech_ How accurate is it_ If it's perfectly accurate then that seems unfair. If it's inaccurate, then that simply introduces more randomness into the outcome of the match. While AI seems to work just fine in competitive moba games and RTS games, it feels out of place for a FPS.

[AsianJoyKiller]

ItsThatGuy, on November 24 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

While AI seems to work just fine in competitive moba games and RTS games, it feels out of place for a FPS.

To touch on that, in MOBAs and RTSs, you have both sides with these sorts of AI or the AI will be universally unfriendly.
In Siege, only one team is getting an advantage.

[defekt]

Sylhiri, on November 24 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

defekt, on November 24 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

Frankly, yes; it's a warship.

Warships generally don't kamikaze into buildings after lifting off a few miles away

Exactly!  Thank you.

[defekt]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 24 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Roundlay, on November 24 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

Anecdotally, I have been assaulted by an enemy battleship on numerous occasions, almost all of which were too inconsequential to register as a balance issue, which I think in a nutshell sums up the issue—too negligible to affect balance in a meaningful way_

Arriving at the AA missing 1/3-1/2 your health is negligible_
I'm sorry... what_

Blimey, you must be really bad at this game mode.  

[DM30]

On paper I'm attracted to the idea of the battleship having weapons for adding a new and unique dynamic to the game mode. However, I can't really comment on it from a gameplay standpoint because my attempts to get into a game of Seige have been very hampered in the last two betas: (In CBE2, having the matchmaker drop me into two sequential games where the team I was put on was down 3 to 1 with the enemy battleship right on our doorstep, and therefore losing interest in trying again; and in CBE3, not being able to find a server with enough people in it to make it at all fun or exciting, if it even was enough to start at all). That being said, I feel like the game mode would lose some of its uniqueness if the battleship became just some passive hunk of metal in the sky.

As for AsianJoyKiller's comments about the team who launched getting a significant edge, the best thing I can think of to help counter that would be to make it easier for the defending team to capture the AA compared to the 'winning' team. Either have it so that if there's a tie in numbers (say 2 of each team at the AA) then the defending team still gains progress toward capturing, not having it stall until the balance shifts, or otherwise ramp it up more and have it require two attackers present to balance out each single defender. Just a thought.

I also agree with defekt that the idea of having the battleship destroy itself to damage the enemy base is frankly stupid. I would think it would be much more impressive if the battleship performed a flyby of the base and unloaded some huge air-to-surface missile volley or something (not having it damage any players, just for visual effect), while still doing the single unit of damage to the base. Then you could theoretically say that it circled around the battlefield to return to the friendly base to resupply on energy, but that would have no bearing on the gameplay itself really so it's not important. Also, I think it would be freaking epic if when two battleships meet they have a massive duel in the air instead of just sitting there. Not so damaging that it eliminates the winning ship's chances of reaching the enemy base entirely, but not insignificant either. However, those points are entirely secondary to balancing the gameplay mechanics of the game mode.

Edited by DM30, November 24 2012 - 02:16 PM.

[Worira]

Accomplishing a primary objective shouldn't give the team that does it an advantage beyond progress towards winning the game. Both teams need to do it anyway, so all having this additional advantage accomplishes is making comebacks artificially difficult for the opposite team. It's a slippery slope, to use David Sirlin's phrasing.

If you do want to include an advantage like the battleship weapons, it needs to be linked a secondary objective, like disabling an enemy shield generator, taking control of an ECM facility, or any other appropriate task. This causes there to be an opportunity cost to capturing and holding it in the form of fewer mechs contesting the main objective, and allows for strategies besides "sit on objective, shoot bad men" to develop.

[Etan]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 24 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

ItsThatGuy, on November 24 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

While AI seems to work just fine in competitive moba games and RTS games, it feels out of place for a FPS.

To touch on that, in MOBAs and RTSs, you have both sides with these sorts of AI or the AI will be universally unfriendly.
In Siege, only one team is getting an advantage.

The team that has the ship gets a advantage. Solution launch your ship as well.
On another note played a match of siege earlier today and missle turrets were there on the second ship. HOLY FUZZY BUNNY was i terrorfied of those things.

Edited by Etan, November 24 2012 - 04:52 PM.

[Beemann]

Etan, on November 24 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 24 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

ItsThatGuy, on November 24 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

While AI seems to work just fine in competitive moba games and RTS games, it feels out of place for a FPS.

To touch on that, in MOBAs and RTSs, you have both sides with these sorts of AI or the AI will be universally unfriendly.
In Siege, only one team is getting an advantage.

The team that has the ship gets a advantage. Solution launch your ship as well.
On another note played a match of siege earlier today and missle turrets were there on the second ship. HOLY FUZZY BUNNY was i terrorfied of those things.

"Instead of actually addressing the points you made, I'm just going to remake the assertion I made at the start"
Classy

[Sylhiri]

Why don't they give the base towers life bars that only the battleship can damage, while the ships are flying through the air they just focus on attacking the base. Even if your ship gets destroyed about halfway through you'll damage the base a little bit so at the very least they are useful while in the air.

[Beemann]

Sylhiri, on November 24 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Why don't they give the base towers life bars that only the battleship can damage, while the ships are flying through the air they just focus on attacking the base. Even if your ship gets destroyed about halfway through you'll damage the base a little bit so at the very least they are useful while in the air.

I just asked in mumble why the ships need turrets to shoot at ground forces if they just ram into the opposing base anyway, when it would make much more sense to use guns to destroy the enemy base
Are you part of the hivemind_

[Sylhiri]

Beemann, on November 24 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

I just asked in mumble why the ships need turrets to shoot at ground forces if they just ram into the opposing base anyway, when it would make much more sense to use guns to destroy the enemy base
Are you part of the hivemind_

Perhaps

[ItsThatGuy]

Sylhiri, on November 24 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Why don't they give the base towers life bars that only the battleship can damage, while the ships are flying through the air they just focus on attacking the base. Even if your ship gets destroyed about halfway through you'll damage the base a little bit so at the very least they are useful while in the air.

Apparently I've reached my quota of positive votes for the day, but +1 on this!

[Roundlay]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 24 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Arriving at the AA missing 1/3-1/2 your health is negligible_
Dying because the battleship landed a the last shot as you escaped and having to spend time respawing and traveling back is nebligible_
Being unable to repair because the battleship decided to shoot you while you repaired leaving your team one man down is negligible_

Those are not negligible effects, no. But they're also counter to my experiences whilst playing Siege mode; I've found the battleship's impact on moment to moment gameplay pretty minor.

Of course, your assertion may be totally spot on, but without some hard numbers I don't really see any reason to think this is a huge issue.

Edited by Roundlay, November 24 2012 - 10:58 PM.

[LordofNosgoth]

In the first 2 CBEs the Battleship turrets did exist and did do damage... but nowhere near the amount of damage they do now. They were a nuisance before. Now they're just down-right deadly. Why should the enemy worry about shooting you when their battleship will do it for them_ Combine this with the rocketeer and seeker spam that's been going on and you don't stand a chance if you're already down.

Edited by LordofNosgoth, November 24 2012 - 11:17 PM.