74 replies to this topic

[Akrium]

By "End Game" I am defining it as the game 1-2 years from launch.

We are going to ignore the skill tree and internals even though they are junk right now. We all know they are in the process of tuning this system and this was only the start.

Mitigation through Avoidance:

Always a true way of separating those with skill from those that do not posses it. Dodging mechanics in games highly promote this.

One glaring problem here... there are guns in the game that negate the need to aim well because they seek. This is going to be a HUGE problem. A-Class at end game will take a lot of skill to play correctly. See games like Team Fortress Classic(TFC) and other games where the smallest/fastest units eventually stop being played because player increased skill negates their only defense. I understand right now that seeking weapons help keep A-Class in line currently. This is the start of the game and many people don't understand movement and how to mitigate damage though avoidance and or how to aim. Thus A-Class can rush them and destroy them fairly easy. But end game this will NOT be the case. People will know how to time and aim tow rockets.. how to aim their guns as they dodge and simply become better mech pilots. The A-Class can get to the point that they simply will not have enough armor to live through fights because other people will know how to counter them much easier. And having weapons that auto seek are just simply going to hurt this game in the end.

Is it fun firing hellfire missiles and watching them take over half the health off an A-Class mech... oh god yes. But you can do that without the lock on. The Sharpshooters used to see the same thing when they double shot their guns and did the same amount of damage. They don't now though.

I know the devs don't mind having "easy to use" weapons. But with the way FPS games have been.. what is easier than an AR/SMG and a rocket launcher. I thought this is why the assault is the base line mech they have you get at start. Those kind of weapons have been the stock weapons for all fps games since the beginning. How much easier does it need to get_ If you like the idea of seeking weapons, their damage needs to be seriously toned down.

SMG/AR/Vulcan dps are not ever true dps because their accuracy hinders their damage output. Range and LoS are major factors for these guns and their damage. This is why the Vulcan is so lack luster now. In the range game of the bullet guns, the AR will have the longest shot, the smg will have middle ground and the vulcan is supposed to be CQC. Problem is the SMG accuracy puts it in the CQC range and so the Vulcan is seriously lacking because they want a gun to be closer yet. So it is now failing hard at middle range and is ok CQC. Seeker weapons are only mitigated via LoS.. and not always. They also seek even around corners if fired right or dodged incorrectly behind a corner. Their damage is far too constant because of the lack of accuracy issues and damage reduced over range (i believe bullets lose damage once past their "effective range". I could be wrong, could just be accuracy is total fuzzy bunny at that point).

I know they are constantly tweaking dmg and what not. But seeking weapons really don't need to be in a game that is supposed to be based on skill. I thought the goal was to have player skill mean something. An advance player will do the roughly the same as a new player with a weapon like that. Skill doesn't factor in it at all.

[Akrium]

Little update after playing around with Bruiser some.

If you just take off the homing from the hellfire rockets, I'd totally be cool with that. Because it still has a good damage and not crazy horrible spread at range. It just requires some timing and aiming but I am maiming ppl with them at range because they are not hearing them coming. But it is far more effective to lockon anything mid-long range. Weapon itself isn't bad.. just seeking weapons in a game about mitigation through avoidance doesn't sit well. Granted it turns it into a buckshot tow missile launcher that does much more damage though. Granted it already does more than the tow.

I can tell you, the skill will really be obvious between an advance player and a new player if the lock-on goes away. The missiles themselves are really good without it. Not sure why it was even put in to begin with. Other than it is a neat feature.

[Analysis]

Akrium, on November 25 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

The A-Class can get to the point that they simply will not have enough armor to live through fights because other people will know how to counter them much easier. And having weapons that auto seek are just simply going to hurt this game in the end.

I will still dominate with the A-class as long as I play. It is true players will get better and have better mechanics, but people that choose to use faster mechs will also get better at dodging.

[WarPig]

Analysis, on November 25 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Akrium, on November 25 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

The A-Class can get to the point that they simply will not have enough armor to live through fights because other people will know how to counter them much easier. And having weapons that auto seek are just simply going to hurt this game in the end.

I will still dominate with the A-class as long as I play. It is true players will get better and have better mechanics, but people that choose to use faster mechs will also get better at dodging.

"Lock on Abilities" .... dodging means nothing regardless how amazing you dodge.

[Dreizehn]

Hellfires without homing sounds a bit silly. Sure you don't have to aim the things, but you still gotta time them and that's a skill in itself. Its not spammy McSeekersville. And they have dumbfire applications. Problem is with the Seeker, not the Hellfires.

I feel speedy classes still have plenty of options even when people get better. People will get better at fighting them and using them in different ways. Can an A-Class player fight as to stay completely out of sight of their opponent_ Also being faster, they are still inherently better at ambushing, picking their fights, capping.

[N0stalgia]

I share the frustration that no matter how much better you may be at operating your machine, a moron piloting a damage soaking tank with auto-aim is dangerous. Put a skilled player in a rocketeer - or worse - 4 on the same team and its game over. Maybe their weapons could shoot slower or do less damage_ Or - an even better idea - give me a flare item that will break the lock of their missiles. Hopefully it won't be on cooldown when I engage them.

[BeefC4ke]

You want to kill a rocketeer_ Start using cover. The missiles are slow and if you pop in and out of cover you can take them out. People do it to me all the time.

If you want to die, stay out in the open so my missiles can find you.

[hestoned]

BeefC4ke, on November 25 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

You want to kill a rocketeer_ Start using cover. The missiles are slow and if you pop in and out of cover you can take them out. People do it to me all the time.

If you want to die, stay out in the open so my missiles can find you.

I can vouch for this . I have no problem with the seeker missiles at all. They cant even hit you if you get in the guys face and keep strafing.

[Akrium]

Dreizehn, on November 25 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Hellfires without homing sounds a bit silly. Sure you don't have to aim the things, but you still gotta time them and that's a skill in itself. Its not spammy McSeekersville. And they have dumbfire applications. Problem is with the Seeker, not the Hellfires.

I feel speedy classes still have plenty of options even when people get better. People will get better at fighting them and using them in different ways. Can an A-Class player fight as to stay completely out of sight of their opponent_ Also being faster, they are still inherently better at ambushing, picking their fights, capping.

did you know that you cannot fully dodge hellfire missiles unless you have LoS_ That is the ONLY way to not take damage from them. You cannot dodge them out in the open. Why_ Because they have 2 volleys not just 1. So you are always hit by at least 1 of those volleys no matter how good you are. Again this goes back to a lack of accuracy issues w/ seeking weapons and their ability at all ranges to do maximum damage. Meanwhile other ppl have to deal with bullets missing if they are not in the ideal range.

If you use hellfire rockets enough you realize at some point that a lot of them do hit buildings.. yes. But that is you using this ability for long range sniping or incorrectly at mid range and letting a scout dart behind cover over and over. Not using the lock on is just as good if not better in those situations. So losing the lock-on would not hinder you in any form.

Those that complain about how inaccurate the hellfire rockets are without lock-on simply have not tried using it without it. They are very accurate for a buckshot rocket launcher. Point blank they got a wicked spread, but at medium and long range they tighten up as they fly out. It's a neat thing to see and a fun thing to time. It basically has just slightly more lag than the TOW. Which is fine for the fact it does much more damage than the TOW does. Currently it is the highest burst damage weapon in the game.. and it seeks.

Take the seeking away from the seekers turns it into a heat gun with no charge mechanic. The Seeker has zero accuracy issues and does full damage always unless LoS hinders it. Could you imagine a vulcan that never misses unless you get LoS_ That if it actually had it's potential dps always_ My god it would be crazy even now if that was the case.

This is the issue.. potential dps vs true dps. And seeking weapons in general are always more true to their possible dps at all ranges. And in a game about mitigation through avoidance, seeking weapons will break the system and have no skill use difference between a pro and a newbie. I see this as a failing mechanic. Neat yes.. but failing for this game's purpose.

[ReachH]

Not only do you waste everyone's time with your exuberant, extensive garbage, but you reach the exact opposite conclusion of what is the truth.

Thank you for taking the time in typing up your concerns.

/Next whine topic

[Beemann]

I'd be pretty cool with some slight mechanics change that promotes dumbfiring the rockets once you get better with them
Also make them fire from consistent positions and travel along consistent paths plz kthnx

[Decoy101x]

I'm sorry get mad at me and hate me if you want but all I read in this thread is "qq I can't dodge hellfires or seekers from bruiser/rocketeer"

I usually come out on top vs rocketeers and bruisers. More than 75% of the time I can avoid all damage from hellfires even if I don't have Los of the mech shooting them.

An option I think people might like would be have an indicator of which direction the hellfires are coming from. That way you can possibly dodge and or get behind cover without ever having Los. But as it stands now this thread is mostly "qq I take too much damage from hellfires and seekers. Omfg lock on is noob skillz"

[Dreizehn]

Eh, plenty of ways to dodge hellfires. You see that stupid warning, you find a corner to turn around or a block of something to hide behind. Simply just boosting in a bloody straight line until its over is enough for most part.

And at mid-close range, simply side dashing is quite enough. Emergency hops also do wonders. Even if you do get splashed by some of it - its seriously not a whole lot.

[iamhoshi]

it's silly but what scares me the most is that there are no cheaters in this game and I don't believe that developers made some epic anti-cheat system. in every major beta game after some time you would find many of those cheating bastards but not here. is that a clear message - we are not interested in that game because it won't last long_ in popular fps multiplayer games are plenty of hacks. ppl want to show off, be the best. is this game going to end up like crysis 2 - dead after some ( few weeks after release - no developers support ) time_

[Decoy101x]

iamhoshi, on November 26 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

it's silly but what scares me the most is that there are no cheaters in this game and I don't believe that developers made some epic anti-cheat system. in every major beta game after some time you would find many of those cheating bastards but not here. is that a clear message - we are not interested in that game because it won't last long_ in popular fps multiplayer games are plenty of hacks. ppl want to show off, be the best. is this game going to end up like crysis 2 - dead after some ( few weeks after release - no developers support ) time_

Lolololololololololollolololololololol

No one hacking = a bad soon to be dead game!_ Are you fuzzy bunny kidding me_ Hahahahahahahahaha get outta here with that ish

[GatNic3]

Decoy101x, on November 26 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

iamhoshi, on November 26 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

it's silly but what scares me the most is that there are no cheaters in this game and I don't believe that developers made some epic anti-cheat system. in every major beta game after some time you would find many of those cheating bastards but not here. is that a clear message - we are not interested in that game because it won't last long_ in popular fps multiplayer games are plenty of hacks. ppl want to show off, be the best. is this game going to end up like crysis 2 - dead after some ( few weeks after release - no developers support ) time_

Lolololololololololollolololololololol

No one hacking = a bad soon to be dead game!_ Are you fuzzy bunny kidding me_ Hahahahahahahahaha get outta here with that ish

Seconded.  Hackers hack cuz they suck--period or get picked on IRL for being the fuzzy-buzzy they are.  Oh and worry not about 2yrs from now...let's get there 1st_

Edited by GatNic3, November 26 2012 - 11:02 AM.

[iamhoshi]

I'm not saying "I wish to see hacks available", no opposite, I hope I'll never see that kind of thing here but every popular game has it's own hack problems. I hope developers will listen to community and the game will survive, improve, etc. etc. EOT.

edit// I'm apologizing for offtop.

Edited by iamhoshi, November 26 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Akrium]

so after reading those that say I am just QQing.. it makes me understand they never read my wall of txt. Ok simple simple simple version for ppl just trolling:

Seeking weapon dps is far too constant due to lack of accuracy issues. Skill needs to be added in. Every other weapon has to worry about range and accuracy and knowing the correct ranging for each weapon to get even close to it's total potential dps. It's true dps is far lower than it's potential dps unless you are point blank and not missing a single bullet. Seeking weapons true dps is always very close to potential dps no matter what the range. This does not promote good counter mechanics. An advanced player and a new player will use the gun in the same fashion with the same results.

[ReachH]

Akrium, on November 26 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

so after reading those that say I am just QQing.. it makes me understand they never read my wall of txt. Ok simple simple simple version for ppl just trolling:

Seeking weapon dps is far too constant due to lack of accuracy issues. Skill needs to be added in. Every other weapon has to worry about range and accuracy and knowing the correct ranging for each weapon to get even close to it's total potential dps. It's true dps is far lower than it's potential dps unless you are point blank and not missing a single bullet. Seeking weapons true dps is always very close to potential dps no matter what the range. This does not promote good counter mechanics. An advanced player and a new player will use the gun in the same fashion with the same results.

True, I would say it is easier to play at a good level. But this does not change the fact that seekers and such are easily dodged and hidden from. They cannot be detonated like the Grenade Launcher. So the assertion that they are OP based on dps or whatever is misguided and tells only half a story.

Edited by ReachH, November 26 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

ReachH, on November 26 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

But this does not change the fact that seekers... are easily dodged

This is false.
Seekers fire every .7 seconds, have exceptional tracking and are hard to see even in the best conditions.
It is simply not possible to effectively dodge Seekers beyond the first (if you even see it coming), and as soon as they start hitting, they obscure your vision making it impossible to see any further incoming Seekers.

The only option is to hid or die.
What other weapon does that_