74 replies to this topic

[Akrium]

ReachH, on November 26 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Akrium, on November 26 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

so after reading those that say I am just QQing.. it makes me understand they never read my wall of txt. Ok simple simple simple version for ppl just trolling:

Seeking weapon dps is far too constant due to lack of accuracy issues. Skill needs to be added in. Every other weapon has to worry about range and accuracy and knowing the correct ranging for each weapon to get even close to it's total potential dps. It's true dps is far lower than it's potential dps unless you are point blank and not missing a single bullet. Seeking weapons true dps is always very close to potential dps no matter what the range. This does not promote good counter mechanics. An advanced player and a new player will use the gun in the same fashion with the same results.

True, I would say it is easier to play at a good level. But this does not change the fact that seekers and such are easily dodged and hidden from. They cannot be detonated like the Grenade Launcher. So the assertion that they are OP based on dps or whatever is misguided and tells only half a story.

What you seem to be missing is this.

Seeking/HIt scan weapon mitigation = LoS only
Every other weapon mitigation = LoS, Range, Accuracy (depends if damage drops after passing max range on weapon)

Do you see a glaring difference_ I can dodge behind walls to not take vulcan damage just as easily as I can dodge behind a wall to not take seeking dmg.. assuming I dodged soon enough and it doesn't curve and hit me.

Lets pretend the Vulcan only has to worry about LoS and is hit scan or seeking. Even with the nerf to the weapon right now it would instantly turn it into an ungodly beast again. Why_ It's true dps instantly climbs higher to it's possible dps. The seeking weapons have no worries about this and promotes zero interesting game play from them compared to that of a Vulcan as it currently is.

To give an example a counter to the Vulcan is to simply just stay away at a good range and LoS a little until he overheats and then go spank him while he is basically in a self induced emp (note this is two forms of mitigation.. Range AND LoS because of the horrid accuracy issues w/ the vulcan). This is FAR more interesting of a tactic than ONLY LoS. This is what promotes skill between good players and those that are new. This is what adds depth to a game. Depth is what you want.

Toss on the fact also that the A-Class are going to have a heck of a time down the road as is because player skill will grow and they will understand how easy it is to trash them fast because they have little armor counts. There is no need for a hard counter to just A-Class in the game. Unless they plan on adding one for each of the other classes and they make it rock paper scissors. I hope they don't go there personally because that will be boring.

[BernardWiseman]

I don't understand what the problem is. Rocketeers are fairly easy prey for a Berzerker, you just need to pop the damage boost, walk out from behind a corner, fire your TOW into his slow, plodding, gigantic torso, dodge behind cover, rinse and repeat. If you do have cover, the Rocketeer can barely touch you because of his own lack of mobility. If there's two, of course, things get a lot thornier, but seekers aren't the A-killers you make them out to be unless you're standing in the open on Bazhara or something.

[iamhoshi]

bazaar as I remember. locking range should be reduced a bit.

[Beemann]

BernardWiseman, on November 26 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

I don't understand what the problem is. Rocketeers are fairly easy prey for a Berzerker, you just need to pop the damage boost, walk out from behind a corner, fire your TOW into his slow, plodding, gigantic torso, dodge behind cover, rinse and repeat. If you do have cover, the Rocketeer can barely touch you because of his own lack of mobility. If there's two, of course, things get a lot thornier, but seekers aren't the A-killers you make them out to be unless you're standing in the open on Bazhara or something.

"If a smaller, burstier class is allowed to sit in its optimal zone while the opponent keeps bashing their head against the wall, the head bashing opponent loses, therefore it's totally fine"

[GatNic3]

Honestly, I'd like to see more "Pilot Progress" than "Weapon" or "Mech" progress.  Devoting time to the game and actually acquiring more in-game experience instead of focusing on weapon progress will open up more competitive and dedicated gameplay.  How_  People will not simply: play/pruchase "red money" to "buy" the "best" weapons etc.  Pilot progression creates a sense of consistency across the board and removes the flakiness of an overall progress system based on  purchasable/end-of-match points i.e. Hawken dollars and per/mech xp.  Those aspects, while alluring in the beginning, will not sustain the interest of veteran pilots-especially those wanting challenging encounters like myself.

[WarPig]

for the ones thinking this is a QQ thread chances are ... Akrium can own you first of all on any mech you play, by no means is this a QQ thread but a concern for the longevity of the game.

Some of you who just post to simply pad your posting count and come off like "Im alpha playa" leetness... really _ Get over yourselves.
This is a issue and it's not a QQ thread try having some discussion please.

[Ssuusshhii]

It's not like the TOW and the GL require any sort of aim either.  The explosion radius for both weapons are way too big and the splash fallout is way too low.  I'm fairly certain that almost all hits people land with either weapon are not direct hits, but manual explosions that you can't avoid because the splash is too big.

Making this game require more skill and/or aim is a general problem in this game.

[Akrium]

I hit people mid air all the time with tows... most of my hits with the tow are damn near direct hits or just slight misses. Only time I don't aim for direct hits is when I fight A-Class mechs and I want a lesser dodge chance.

You can at some point learn to direct hit people as well. It just takes practice and patients. Well.. and the willingness to learn how to.

[Decoy101x]

okay im tired of being nice as im already sick of this discussion. I'm starting to think Akrium is bad. I havent seen him/her play so I cant honestly say. But Seriously..

You DO NOT need los to dodge seekers or hellfires. I dodge both all the time without knowing the LOS. Maybe the splash damage of hellfires could be reduced a tiny bit, ill give you that, but there is a ''skill'' to using lock on weapons. you cant just lock on whilly nilly and fire away. you have to time your locks and fires for max effectiveness.  if you just lock on and fire every chance you get more often than not you'll miss or the enemy will dodge. I do understand what akirum is saying but to me all i read is the inability to effectively on a personal level be able to dodge or ''mitigate'' the hellfire/seeker damage.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Decoy101x, on November 26 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

You DO NOT need los to dodge seekers

You do realize, it's physically impossible to dodge more than 1 Seeker missile every few seconds_

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, November 26 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[Decoy101x]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Decoy101x, on November 26 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

You DO NOT need los to dodge seekers

You do realize, it's physically impossible to dodge more than 1 Seeker missile every few seconds_

i must be hax because i seem to do it with well timed dodges and strafing. O_o

[Ssuusshhii]

Akrium, on November 26 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

I hit people mid air all the time with tows... most of my hits with the tow are damn near direct hits or just slight misses. Only time I don't aim for direct hits is when I fight A-Class mechs and I want a lesser dodge chance.

You can at some point learn to direct hit people as well. It just takes practice and patients. Well.. and the willingness to learn how to.

The only times you'll land direct hits with the ToW consistently are when you catch someone off guard, bait them to dodge and catch their recovery, and stupidly flying in mid-air.  Other than that, it is hard to land a direct hit and it should have stayed that way.  You should have to predict dodges and aim there to get damage.  Instead, the explosions for both ToW and GL are both so huge (with little damage fall-off) that it's not even a necessity to hit directly outside of those situations.  In fact, it's more consistent to just let it loose whenever and blow it up because you wouldn`t even have to deal with baiting or waiting for dodges.  I land near misses all the time.  It`s not hard either.  I shouldn`t be rewarded as much as I am for it.  It`s made even worse because I can detonate it on command, marginalizing aim and positioning.

For an FPS, this game requires very little aim.  EMP radius is even more disgusting than the ToW and GL (it goes even further than its animation), turrets are more effective than the effort it takes to place them (they even see you when you`re not on the radar), and the tracking weapons are self-explanatory.  Flak cannon and heat cannon are stupid easy to hit with as well.  The only thing that will separate player skill once people how to dodge is just how good they are at playing the game where both players dance around pillars.  This game doesn't have enough weapons, mechanics, or speed to make it even remotely deep or challenging once people get past their inability to press shift.

[GatNic3]

While agree here w/Sushi on most of his viewpoint especially the dmg radii on tow/GL/Nades/EMP[emp should disbale the shooter if it's emitted as a ball of energy].
But this is so misconstrued:
By Ssuusshhii:
"This game doesn't have enough weapons, mechanics, or speed to make it even remotely deep or challenging once people get past their inability to press shift."
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Honestly the control and innovative battle mixed w/mechs while definitely attempted b4 w/Virtua ON! being the best at it until Hawken.  There is more than enough within and beyond this game for leagues, ladders and specs.  Psh  idk what the fuzzy-buzzy j00-smokin!! O_O

[BernardWiseman]

Beemann, on November 26 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

"If a smaller, burstier class is allowed to sit in its optimal zone while the opponent keeps bashing their head against the wall, the head bashing opponent loses, therefore it's totally fine"

I realized the problem after I said it, but I haven't seen a whole lot of C-classes who manage to stay in THEIR optimal zone. Maps have lots of cover and Cs are just too slow to waddle out of a deathtrap very quickly.

As for what Sushi says, I think it's a pretty fair assessment. I would personally not mind seeing TTK go up a little bit, weapon reload times go down a little bit, make players have to land more repeated hits in order to score a kill.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Ssuusshhii, on November 26 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

The only times you'll land direct hits with the ToW consistently are when you catch someone off guard, bait them to dodge and catch their recovery, and stupidly flying in mid-air.  Other than that, it is hard to land a direct hit and it should have stayed that way.

Just because you're not good enough to land direct hits on an aware opponent, doesn't make it universally true.

[Akrium]

Ssuusshhii, on November 26 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Akrium, on November 26 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

I hit people mid air all the time with tows... most of my hits with the tow are damn near direct hits or just slight misses. Only time I don't aim for direct hits is when I fight A-Class mechs and I want a lesser dodge chance.

You can at some point learn to direct hit people as well. It just takes practice and patients. Well.. and the willingness to learn how to.

The only times you'll land direct hits with the ToW consistently are when you catch someone off guard, bait them to dodge and catch their recovery, and stupidly flying in mid-air.  Other than that, it is hard to land a direct hit and it should have stayed that way.  You should have to predict dodges and aim there to get damage.  Instead, the explosions for both ToW and GL are both so huge (with little damage fall-off) that it's not even a necessity to hit directly outside of those situations.  In fact, it's more consistent to just let it loose whenever and blow it up because you wouldn`t even have to deal with baiting or waiting for dodges.  I land near misses all the time.  It`s not hard either.  I shouldn`t be rewarded as much as I am for it.  It`s made even worse because I can detonate it on command, marginalizing aim and positioning.

For an FPS, this game requires very little aim.  EMP radius is even more disgusting than the ToW and GL (it goes even further than its animation), turrets are more effective than the effort it takes to place them (they even see you when you`re not on the radar), and the tracking weapons are self-explanatory.  Flak cannon and heat cannon are stupid easy to hit with as well.  The only thing that will separate player skill once people how to dodge is just how good they are at playing the game where both players dance around pillars.  This game doesn't have enough weapons, mechanics, or speed to make it even remotely deep or challenging once people get past their inability to press shift.

I still hit direct hits a lot =p

But agree over all that this game needs more. I'd like more from the skill tree as well. It can really change people's play styles if done correctly. Heat cannon is hit scan for all purposes.. which end game could be very well stupid. The mini flak does have issues with range.. the scout does have to get close to make it worth his time. So it does take some skill to get close to someone and not die yourself. I find it decent risk vs reward. How it plays out in the end.. not sure.

Still I am over all very happy w/ this game.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Akrium, on November 26 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Heat cannon is hit scan for all purposes...

Oh no.
For all intents and purposes, it is so very much not hitscan.

[Ssuusshhii]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Ssuusshhii, on November 26 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

The only times you'll land direct hits with the ToW consistently are when you catch someone off guard, bait them to dodge and catch their recovery, and stupidly flying in mid-air.  Other than that, it is hard to land a direct hit and it should have stayed that way.

Just because you're not good enough to land direct hits on an aware opponent, doesn't make it universally true.

Please tell me how you'd land a direct hit against an aware opponent when most battles will be fought around control points (where it'd be easy to dash behind cover) or why I should even go for them when I can land a near-hit  that does damage regardless and at a higher success rate.  It becomes more possible in open fights, but again, you'd get more consistent damage exploding it near them than actually predicting the dodge.

Also, bad/new players who don't dodge don't count.

Edited by Ssuusshhii, November 26 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Ssuusshhii, on November 26 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Please tell me how you'd land a direct hit against an aware opponent when most battles will be fought around control points (where it'd be easy to dash behind cover) or why I should even go for them when I can land a near-hit  that does damage regardless and at a higher success rate.  It becomes more possible in open fights, but again, you'd get more consistent damage exploding it near them than actually predicting the dodge.

You predict where they will go, and fire there.
The reason you go for direct hits, because it does more damage. And even if you happen to miss, you can then detonate for the most shrapnel damage possible.
So no, you get just as consistent damage if you go for direct hits (if you don't suck at target prediction) and you have the possibility of doing more damage than someone who always goes for splash.
Hell, if you're BuDeKai, you're going to hit more often than you miss.

[Akrium]

AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Akrium, on November 26 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Heat cannon is hit scan for all purposes...

Oh no.
For all intents and purposes, it is so very much not hitscan.

it taking 1 second to travel mid distance is not something you can dodge and should be considered hit scan. It's speed is ridiculous and when I use it I treat it like a hit scan weapon. I don't have problems aiming it.. but then again I don't snipe with it. Though one could since it has zero accuracy issues. I think so far it is fine.. but I am not sure how it will play out in the end. It defiantly fits the role of ini play style. I probably don't mind it because it does fit so well.

Ssuusshhii, on November 26 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on November 26 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Ssuusshhii, on November 26 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

The only times you'll land direct hits with the ToW consistently are when you catch someone off guard, bait them to dodge and catch their recovery, and stupidly flying in mid-air.  Other than that, it is hard to land a direct hit and it should have stayed that way.

Just because you're not good enough to land direct hits on an aware opponent, doesn't make it universally true.

Please tell me how you'd land a direct hit against an aware opponent when most battles will be fought around control points (where it'd be easy to dash behind cover) or why I should even go for them when I can land a near-hit  that does damage regardless and at a higher success rate.  It becomes more possible in open fights, but again, you'd get more consistent damage exploding it near them than actually predicting the dodge.

Also, bad/new players who don't dodge don't count.

Yes we all fight more new players than skilled players. This is true. But also I play TDM.. where you are not sitting some point. You are in a flowing field of fast action pain. It is easy to run out of boost in these situations and still I've been using a rocket launcher since the days of quake 2/tribes (first game to allow you to jet pack  and done well). I've been highly used to shooting moving targets while I am moving as well. I am an old fuzzy bunny.. we'll leave it at that. Do I also use the environment to make a hit sometimes.. of course. But it doesn't do the same damage if I do that. I typically am in an A class and it is about killing someone fast so I don't take much damage.