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The Future of Siege as an Esport and Competitive Hawken

Beta Video Community Review

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#1 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted November 27 2012 - 05:11 PM

Using a competitive strategy developed by NotKjell, we play Siege, Hawken's game mode put forward as it's premier competitive gametype.

EDIT: Make sure to read through NotKjell's post below this one. It outlines in detail the strategy used in the video and the ideas behind it. It involves knowledge that is important to properly discussing this topic.

This lasted 59 minutes, with the real fighting not occurring till 30 minutes in, and only because we grew bored.

http://youtu.be/UOHlMP0JoEg

EDIT: There seems to be a lot of confusion about how this strategy works.

Here's a few key points:
  • You want the enemy to launch their battleship first.
  • You want the enemy to shoot your ship down as fast as possible.
  • You want the enemy to hold the AA.
  • You cannot spawn camp a 6 man team on their territory for very long assuming relatively equal skill between teams.
  • The passive team will not be running an EU train. They will stick together as a group.
  • Harassment will have little to no effect on a 6 man group.
  • Even by reverting to CBE2 rules, Siege fosters an environment that does not promote fighting.
  • Competitive players do not take unnecessary risks. Strategies are developed with the idea that money and/or professional reputation is on the line.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, November 28 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#2 NotKjell

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Posted November 27 2012 - 05:12 PM

First, the boring ass video above is not a perfected refined strat not some scrim between practiced players. AJK was bored to tears from previous games and not caring, and the others had the strategy explained in them as the game started.

So siege mode was put forward as the flagship mode for the Hawken E-sport scene. So being interested in this, I put thought into what would be the most effective strategies. Things to consider in general is minimizing risk, #1 being engaging other players. Remember that this is considering a professional level - other players will not be random players, you must assume they are of equal skill and dangerous. Other things to consider are denying your opponent from getting ahead as much as possible while getting ahead yourself.

The #1 reason to engage the other team is fighting for the AA because you need to destroy the battleship. The answer on how to reliably avoid this risk is simple: It’s piss easy to shoot down the battleship without leaving the safety of your base. So no need to engage - as you can see for the first half hour I had 5 kills. And most of those were from the enemy team getting bored, and attacking us while we had out massive defenders advantage.

Next is how to get ahead. The only things to get ahead in are EU and battleship level. So this was the strategy. Drop the EU required to launch your ship very low, then suck the map dry of EU. Let the enemy fire the first ship, who cares. Fall back to the safety of your spawn and launch your ship. Let them have the AA - you actually want them to shoot down your ship ASAP. Begin pummeling their ship to low health-but don’t shoot it down. When your ship goes down, instantly re-launch it then go collect all the energy it dropped. Against standard play, the AA should shoot it down right over your base. Do this as much as you can, leveling your ship as much as possible and re-collecting all the dropped energy. You can then wait until their ship is overhead to shoot it down and collect their energy.

With no risk of fighting for the AA and losing, no risk of getting hit by the battleship you will be leveling up your ship faster. Eventually your ship will get to the point where it’s unstoppable long before their ship does.

There’s a catch though

Prior to playing this, I did not realize two things, that ships stop and wait for one ship to get blown out of the sky before continuing on, and that the ships HAVE a maximum HP, 18,000. 18,000 is an issue all by itself because of HOW easy it is for a full team to down a max-level ship without the need for AA. The ships being so polite leads to stalemates, easier shooting down of ships and abuse. At 27:15, if we knew this we could have earned a free level up AND relaunch because 2 ships drop enough energy to launch another ship.

Worse yet, this leads to a point where neither team will want to launch the first battleship. Why_ Because if your team does, the other team can so easily drop the ship to next to no HP, wait for it to get to their base, then block your ship with theirs. For the game to continue, your team must now shoot down their ship OVER THEIR spawn, and then they will shoot down yours finally. This will give them enough energy to instantly re-launch the ship, locking down the EU points and earning them a free ship level (not that they mean anything, you can always down the ship) if you don’t have enough stockpiled EU to relaunch the ship and return the favor.

TL;DR siege is easily broken, abused, and can be best won by never fighting the enemy.

Edited by NotKjell, November 27 2012 - 05:17 PM.

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#3 DarkPulse

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Posted November 27 2012 - 05:21 PM

All this shows is pretty much how broken it is in this beta, which is a whole world of difference from CB2, which is pretty much where most of us want it to go back to. The mere fact that ships cost 700 EU to launch back then would disallow the "ship camping" tactic you mention, for starters, or at least make it so they have to go to one of the two points for EU.
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#4 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted November 27 2012 - 05:23 PM

View PostDarkPulse, on November 27 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

All this shows is pretty much how broken it is in this beta, which is a whole world of difference from CB2, which is pretty much where most of us want it to go back to. The mere fact that ships cost 700 EU to launch back then would disallow the "ship camping" tactic you mention, for starters, or at least make it so they have to go to one of the two points for EU.
Which still wouldn't address the fact it discourages fighting.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#5 NotKjell

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Posted November 27 2012 - 05:24 PM

View PostDarkPulse, on November 27 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

All this shows is pretty much how broken it is in this beta, which is a whole world of difference from CB2, which is pretty much where most of us want it to go back to. The mere fact that ships cost 700 EU to launch back then would disallow the "ship camping" tactic you mention, for starters, or at least make it so they have to go to one of the two points for EU.

What about beta 2 makes this strategy less viable_ The only differences would drag it out EVEN more.

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#6 Ollie

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Posted November 27 2012 - 05:54 PM

Ok, so take it one step further: what changes would need to be made to prevent this strategy_
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#7 c0mad0r

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Posted November 27 2012 - 05:55 PM

Those 2 hours last night playing with NotKJell and AsianJoyKiller completely ruined Seige for me and a few others for sure. I knew that Seige was busted, but had no idea just how completely lame it has become.

There is no future in Hawken Seige as an eSport unless then change it, period.
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#8 Beemann

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Posted November 27 2012 - 06:12 PM

View PostOllie, on November 27 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Ok, so take it one step further: what changes would need to be made to prevent this strategy_
Pretty much nothing that wouldn't just change the boring strat to a slightly different boring strat
The gamemode is fundamentally flawed


View PostDarkPulse, on November 27 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

All this shows is pretty much how broken it is in this beta, which is a whole world of difference from CB2, which is pretty much where most of us want it to go back to. The mere fact that ships cost 700 EU to launch back then would disallow the "ship camping" tactic you mention, for starters, or at least make it so they have to go to one of the two points for EU.
All the changes did was make the gamemode faster, which just means that the boring drawn out non-fights will be shorter
Reverting to CB2 mechanics would just make the optimal strat longer and more boring
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#9 particle

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Posted November 27 2012 - 06:37 PM

Huh I didn't know Siege mode was their "premier esports" mode.

#10 NotKjell

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Posted November 27 2012 - 06:38 PM

View Postc0mad0r, on November 27 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Those 2 hours last night playing with NotKJell and AsianJoyKiller completely ruined Seige for me and a few others for sure. I knew that Seige was busted, but had no idea just how completely lame it has become.

There is no future in Hawken Seige as an eSport unless then change it, period.

View PostOllie, on November 27 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Ok, so take it one step further: what changes would need to be made to prevent this strategy_

First, I would like to say the game mode is not ruined for me. I still enjoy playing it with random people as no-one will ever try and do this fuzzy bunny. My issue is that siege is what was put forward for e-sports, yet it has issues I'm not sure it can overcome in regards to it being hawken's flagship E-sport mode. Fun for public play definitely don't get me wrong, but not suitable for E-sports.

In the current form of siege, there are a few mechanics leading to this abuse and creating situations where the players will abuse them to their advantage, but to the detriment and boredom of viewers. Battleships drop EU, battleships don't pass through each other, battleships level, players can effectively damage battleships and battleships turn off EU points when they're out.

I could go into detail on how reversing each of these or combinations of them would change the game, but each one you remove exposes what I feel is the greatest weakness of siege as an E-sport. It's not very creative. Every game would play out the same way. Remove all of the above abuses and look what you'd be left with.

Teams run as a pack to one of two points. 50% chance these packs meet. If they do, action happens only in one specific, predictable part of the map. Outcomes: packs meet, one side wins, proceed to stage two. packs don't meet, proceed to stage two.

Stage two: Teams are now fighting at one specific, known part of the map. Winner of this fight scores 1 point. Or if they lost the pack fight earlier, their opponents simply don't gain a point.

Every game the fights will happen at the same points, at the same times. No room for creative play - the mode literally forces you to play this way. Good for keeping public games on track - bad for e-sports play.

Edited by NotKjell, November 27 2012 - 06:39 PM.

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#11 Ollie

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Posted November 27 2012 - 07:10 PM

Huh.  Interesting.  I think there are probably some further implications for public games though, should matchmaking ever be resolved enough to allow parties to reliably find one another.  It sounds like a group of 3-4 could easily persuade the other 2 to follow the strat.  Any time you get a party together, you'd be increasing the roflstomping to much higher levels than they already are.  I don't think the issue is necessarily confined to e-sports -- I'd wager the metagame in pubs would swing this way in a few short months.
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#12 Beemann

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Posted November 27 2012 - 07:15 PM

View PostOllie, on November 27 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Huh.  Interesting.  I think there are probably some further implications for public games though, should matchmaking ever be resolved enough to allow parties to reliably find one another.  It sounds like a group of 3-4 could easily persuade the other 2 to follow the strat.  Any time you get a party together, you'd be increasing the roflstomping to much higher levels than they already are.  I don't think the issue is necessarily confined to e-sports -- I'd wager the metagame in pubs would swing this way in a few short months.
The motivation is a bit different. You might get a few people trying to pull this, but it's so tremendously boring that they'd quickly find that they had no opponents, or someone on their team would leave/abandon the strat
With ESport matches, you've got money and epeen solidly on the line. Nobody wants to risk losing
So if you have to sit around being bored (and driving away spectators) in order to be the best and win first prize, you're going to do it,
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#13 Analysis

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Posted November 27 2012 - 08:30 PM

Siege will never be a competitive game mode. The first issue with siege mode being competitive is a large portion of the game can go without confrontation(energy runs). The other issue is the game can be very long and boring to watch/play.

Missile assualt could perhaps be competitive. The difference between the two modes is to win(in missile assualt) you must have map control and each team is continuously driven to attack vitial points where players will be situated. Missile assualt is basically king of the hill with multiple hills.

Team deathmatch is a given since this mode would require map control and teamwork to win.

If CTF is ever implemented and the maps are symmetrical then this would be an easy canidiate for competitive play.

#14 hestoned

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Posted November 27 2012 - 08:39 PM

Whats stopping the other team from just rushing you guys at your base_ If your defending your self then your not shooting the enemy ship.   If they manage to kill you and push you back into your base then what are you going to do_ When/if they manage that then they could have 1 mech gathering while you guys are just trying to get out the door. There's a plethora of ways to counter this. Definitely not the future of siege.
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#15 Beemann

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Posted November 27 2012 - 08:41 PM

View Posthestoned, on November 27 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Whats stopping the other team from just rushing you guys at your base_ If your defending your self then your not shooting the enemy ship.   If they manage to kill you and push you back into your base then what are you going to do_ When/if they manage that then they could have 1 mech gathering while you guys are just trying to get out the door. There's a plethora of ways to counter this. Definitely not the future of siege.
What are they going to do at the SPOT WHERE YOU RESPAWN AND HAVE TURRETS TO ASSIST YOU_
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#16 PlagueDoctor

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Posted November 27 2012 - 08:42 PM

If one mech is gathering you just ace their team and go out into the map unimpeded.


^also that
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#17 NotKjell

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Posted November 27 2012 - 08:52 PM

View Posthestoned, on November 27 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Whats stopping the other team from just rushing you guys at your base_ If your defending your self then your not shooting the enemy ship.   If they manage to kill you and push you back into your base then what are you going to do_ When/if they manage that then they could have 1 mech gathering while you guys are just trying to get out the door. There's a plethora of ways to counter this. Definitely not the future of siege.

Defender's advantage is a very real thing and the reason why you will never reliably push a professional, coordinated team of equal skill back into their spawn. Especially if you are down a man (the guy collecting energy). Look at titan/origin, our whole team is positioned on top of a hill with plenty of cover and splash damage. Our spawn is only a few seconds away, and we have turrets defending the easiest access up the hill. In addition to fighting at a very large positional disadvantage  any teammates of yours that die are gone. 10 seconds to respawn, and something in the range of 60+ seconds after that to make it across the map. Meanwhile the defenders get to rejoin the fight as soon as they spawn and have turrets and cover to assist them. Plus any of your teammates that die drop EU at the opponent's doorstep, giving them that advantage as well.

Also, while a ship is out there is no collecting energy

Edited by NotKjell, November 27 2012 - 08:57 PM.

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#18 hestoned

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Posted November 27 2012 - 09:23 PM

View PostBeemann, on November 27 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

What are they going to do at the SPOT WHERE YOU RESPAWN AND HAVE TURRETS TO ASSIST YOU_

Not collect energy for one.


View PostNotKjell, on November 27 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

Defender's advantage is a very real thing and the reason why you will never reliably push a professional, coordinated team of equal skill back into their spawn. Especially if you are down a man (the guy collecting energy). Look at titan/origin, our whole team is positioned on top of a hill with plenty of cover and splash damage. Our spawn is only a few seconds away, and we have turrets defending the easiest access up the hill. In addition to fighting at a very large positional disadvantage  any teammates of yours that die are gone. 10 seconds to respawn, and something in the range of 60+ seconds after that to make it across the map. Meanwhile the defenders get to rejoin the fight as soon as they spawn and have turrets and cover to assist them. Plus any of your teammates that die drop EU at the opponent's doorstep, giving them that advantage as well.

Also, while a ship is out there is no collecting energy

Titan is the exception because of that huge freakin block, but im still gunna try and push you back. Since you guys are so content with letting me destroy your ship with the AA than im not exactly losing anything if my push fails and we all die. I'll just keep trying. Eventually you will fall, its just a matter of time. Once that happens your gunna have a pretty tough time getting out when we have the height advantage.
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#19 LunaticCalm

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Posted November 27 2012 - 09:28 PM

Well, certainly good to see people analyzing and breaking the game mode now rather than later. :o Hopefully the devs will see this and put their thinking caps on.

#20 Beemann

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Posted November 27 2012 - 09:28 PM

@Hestoned
Since your non-existent team is so incredible that they can spawncamp a competitive team that has practiced together for hours in an area where they have a population and firepower advantage and keep them out of the match indefinitely, we might as well just drop siege and just hand you the medal every time

Please think before you say things

Oh and every death is -10 EU. 6 deaths is almost half of an A mech's carrying capacity
In addition, you lose everything by letting the other team shoot the ship down, and they lose nothing if you try to kill them on their side of the map
They don't need the AA because a couple of scouts can take down the battleship

Edited by Beemann, November 27 2012 - 09:28 PM.

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