25 replies to this topic

[h0B0]

The hellfires as a secondary for the bruiser mech seem to me to be a wrong choice.

As for my personal experience hellfires seem to be most effective at medium to long range.
At close range the firing patern of the missiles often arc past your opponent. Even with the lock on they are still mostly avoidable at close range. And lastly they are very punishing if you hit a wall near you, and the fact that the 2 salvos are delayed only seems to make this matter even more aggravating since you might shoot your missiles at enemies and quickly dodge behind cover only to get hit my splash damage done by your second salvo.

The bruiser class on the other hand would make you think its a CQC mech.
The bruisers primary (SMC/Vulcan) are most efficient at shorter range.
The bruisers ability which is suppose to allow you to tank better gives you the feeling that you need to get into the heat of things to take best advantage of it.

That is why i think the hellfires on the bruiser are an exemple of game design anti-pattern. Since most of the mech would lead you to think getting in close is the proper way to play this fellow. But in actuality staying at a fair range greatly increases the effectiveness of the hellfires.

Your thoughts_

Edited by h0B0, December 07 2012 - 09:17 AM.

[Conquistador]

Actually, if you think about it, the bruiser is a beautifully synergistic design at a conceptual level. Perhaps not in practice, but that's a conversation for another time.

What the bruiser excels at is not close quarters combat, but fire superiority in open terrain at any given range.

The Vulcan and its spin up time disadvantage it heavily in areas with plenty of cover. The Hellfires likewise require a lengthy lock on that also favors less cover. Both bruiser weapons are fantastic open terrain weapons, and it only gets better when you consider the bruiser's special ability.

If you're out in the open, you're guaranteed to take more fire. Problem is both hellfire and Vulcan thrive out in the open. To counter the need for bruiser players to expose themselves this way, we get a damage reduction ability that offsets the increased exposure to enemy fire.

The bruiser is an extremely cleverly designed mech because it can overwhelm opponents at any range but only situationally. Burst damage opponents intelligently using cover can easily gain a competitive advantage over a bruiser, meaning it is situationally balanced, punishes opponents that stay out in the open, and rewards skilled opponents who use cover to counter the bruiser's overwhelming open terrain superiority.

Edited by Conquistador, December 07 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[TazzGo]

Although I see where you're coming from Hobo, I'd agree with Conquistador in the end, as a Bruiser I've done a lot better in open areas, or even better when working with other team members in those areas. However once it comes 1 v 1 with a scout in and around the AA, I'm generally toast

[DM30]

TazzGo, on December 07 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Although I see where you're coming from Hobo, I'd agree with Conquistador in the end, as a Bruiser I've done a lot better in open areas, or even better when working with other team members in those areas. However once it comes 1 v 1 with a scout in and around the AA, I'm generally toast

My thoughts exactly.

[defekt]

Once the Vulcan heat problem is fixed the Bruiser (along with the Assault) may become the go-to mech for players looking for a machine that plays pretty well in nearly all situations.  IMO the Bruiser is one of the better mech concepts; furthermore, if weapon preset modes come into the OB you might well be able to choose slightly more 'CQB-friendly' Hellfire configs.

[Karaipantsu]

I'd don't view the bruiser as a CQC mech. It's an "Effective at any range" mech.  It's there to be a tank and deal out damage wherever possible.  If someone's far away, drop some homing missiles in their face, they'll love it!  If they're close, light 'em up with the Vulcan (supposedly) superior DPS and add in some nice spash damage from blindfire missiles.  The best situation is, as Conq said, open terrain.  If someone's charging you, you can belt 'em with some missiles as they close range and then slap 'em around with the vulcan up close.  It's a blunt instrument of damage wandering around in the open firing awful things at anything it spots, where everything else is the delicate knife that likes to play hide and seek poking damage where and when they can.

The current flaw in this system is the fact that Hellfires give your opponent plenty of time to notice the alarms and dodge, and the Vulcan is (comically) the inferior CQC weapon to the SMC.

[Akrium]

I think the hellfire missiles need a tweak. And that would solve many issues people are having right now in game w/ rocketeer and bruiser. Add more skill and better aim at the cost of losing lock on. This could allow a bruiser to still do excellent at range and CQC. As it stands, their weapon set up is strange because each weapon is good at the complete opposite, so they do best only using 1 weapon at a time. Lowering their potential dps.

[DM30]

Karaipantsu, on December 07 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

The current flaw in this system is the fact that Hellfires give your opponent plenty of time to notice the alarms and dodge, and the Vulcan is (comically) the inferior CQC weapon to the SMC.

Faster flight speed, but slightly lower damage per missile possibly_

As for the Vulcan, agreed.

[Decoy101x]

i too have to agree with Conquistador

Vulcan needs a buff yes

also i think hellfires are fine. but thats just me.

[h0B0]

Conquistador, on December 07 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Actually, if you think about it, the bruiser is a beautifully synergistic design at a conceptual level. Perhaps not in practice, but that's a conversation for another time.

What the bruiser excels at is not close quarters combat, but fire superiority in open terrain at any given range.

The Vulcan and its spin up time disadvantage it heavily in areas with plenty of cover. The Hellfires likewise require a lengthy lock on that also favors less cover. Both bruiser weapons are fantastic open terrain weapons, and it only gets better when you consider the bruiser's special ability.

If you're out in the open, you're guaranteed to take more fire. Problem is both hellfire and Vulcan thrive out in the open. To counter the need for bruiser players to expose themselves this way, we get a damage reduction ability that offsets the increased exposure to enemy fire.

The bruiser is an extremely cleverly designed mech because it can overwhelm opponents at any range but only situationally. Burst damage opponents intelligently using cover can easily gain a competitive advantage over a bruiser, meaning it is situationally balanced, punishes opponents that stay out in the open, and rewards skilled opponents who use cover to counter the bruiser's overwhelming open terrain superiority.

I love it when people prove me wrong.
Thank you for widening the scope of my knowledge.

[Brawli]

I believe the bruiser needs a different alternative weapon, as it stands the smc and the vulcan share the same function, which leads the default choice to the better weapon statistically.

I think the bruiser would benefit from an alternative weapon that contrasts its primary weapon such as the sa Hawkins or the assault rifle.

The primary should stay as the vulcan as it is a very character defining weapon, a new alternative weapon would solve this feeling of redundancy on the bruiser

[Conquistador]

h0B0, on December 07 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

I love it when people prove me wrong.
Thank you for widening the scope of my knowledge.

Haha, you're most welcome. Always a pleasure to discuss things with people who keep an open mind.

[flimsy]

I'm always puzzled by these threads about the bruisers, and I tend to think that the people complaining have never been on the other end of a hail of hellfires. In an A-class mech, stepping into the open when there are hellfires around is certain death. The warnings tones only sound a fraction of a second before the missiles hit, and a volley will reduce my armor to less than half. If the mech had only hellfires alone, it would still be terrifying.

I've noticed that the Bruiser, while popular, tends to be piloted by players who don't dodge very much, like to fly, and love to chase me around corners. The few really excellent players I've run into piloting Bruisers do very well for themselves.

[ArnieF4440]

Good post Conquistador, very true mate (if only damage absorb wasn't broken, lol)

I like to think of the Bruiser like this:
Mid-Long range = hellfires
Short range = Vulcan/SMC
The weapons kinda compliment each other in the ranges they aren't effective at. But its also good to note that you can predict the movement of players (radar) and 'pre-fire' at a corner at close range with hellfires.

My bruiser play style tries to keep players at a long enough range to use the hellfires, but if all hell breaks loose, or if i need a finisher, i rip out the vulcan.

[145154151164145]

vulcan can kill at suprising ranges if you pulse fire it. Its spread increase rate is pretty slow and with the spin up time, it becomes possible to use it decently at mid ranges

[h0B0]

145154151164145, on December 08 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

vulcan can kill at suprising ranges if you pulse fire it. Its spread increase rate is pretty slow and with the spin up time, it becomes possible to use it decently at mid ranges

This reminds me of something.

The vulcan has a spin up time, but tapping the mouse does nothing to reduce the spin up time.

Is this intentional.
Is this wanted by the community_

[The_Silencer]

h0B0, on December 08 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

145154151164145, on December 08 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

vulcan can kill at suprising ranges if you pulse fire it. Its spread increase rate is pretty slow and with the spin up time, it becomes possible to use it decently at mid ranges

This reminds me of something.

The vulcan has a spin up time, but tapping the mouse does nothing to reduce the spin up time.

Is this intentional.
Is this wanted by the community_

it's time for a poll then_

[TazzGo]

h0B0, on December 08 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

145154151164145, on December 08 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

vulcan can kill at suprising ranges if you pulse fire it. Its spread increase rate is pretty slow and with the spin up time, it becomes possible to use it decently at mid ranges

This reminds me of something.

The vulcan has a spin up time, but tapping the mouse does nothing to reduce the spin up time.

Is this intentional.
Is this wanted by the community_

Do you mean to reduce the spin up time or to be able to keep it spinning a la TF2_

[h0B0]

TazzGo, on December 09 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

h0B0, on December 08 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

145154151164145, on December 08 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

vulcan can kill at suprising ranges if you pulse fire it. Its spread increase rate is pretty slow and with the spin up time, it becomes possible to use it decently at mid ranges

This reminds me of something.

The vulcan has a spin up time, but tapping the mouse does nothing to reduce the spin up time.

Is this intentional.
Is this wanted by the community_

Do you mean to reduce the spin up time or to be able to keep it spinning a la TF2_

Not sure, i will boot up my barely played TF2 and post a poll once i know what you are talking about and use it as a reference if it is apropriate.

[h0B0]

TF2 seems unresponsive tapping the mouse either stops the spin or it keeps shooting.

More like the gatling gun in Return to castle wolfenstein.

Or possibly firefall ( i don't know i havent tried it but judging from this /watch_v=nnzJTBa4cwc ).

Edit: maybe its my mouse or my pc causing issues if someone who has tried it i would appreciate a second perspective

Edited by h0B0, December 09 2012 - 08:14 AM.