85 replies to this topic

[Nitris]

I wondered what was happening to me since OB started. I thought it was that something bent and snapped off in the netcode, because I'd often get snapped back to where I was in the middle of a dodge and be at a dead stop, or be boosting and suddenly stop dead even though I had plenty of fuel left.

This mechanic drastically changes the way they game works now... and I personally really dislike it.
The deadstop is incredibly jarring and just doesn't feel right. Explosive weapons don't need another advantage on top of AOE. Stunlock in any pvp game without there being a way to counter it (aside from not getting hit, duh) is bad for balance and gameplay.



@AussieGrimm:

Nope, quite the opposite. There is still the Slug/Sabot rifles, but other than those explosive weapons are the big damage dealers.

[DexteraDomini]

Welp, read through the entire thread. My thoughts are as follows:

Playstyle/Mech:
To open, I am almost always piloting a Berserker. On paper this puts me in a mech that is supposedly one of those most adversely affected by the "stun" mechanic. Being in a Berserker, I bounce around one hell of a lot and mobility is my greatest defense. My K/D is nice and shiny right now, I can only think of a handful of matches where I went negative. Most of them I come out positive, and on several occasions I've come out /far/ above a 1.0 ratio. A large portion of my kills come from the TOW itself, and the smaller portion of my kills come from the Submachine Cannon.

Noticed/Visible Effects:
To be honest, I never would have noticed this at all before reading this thread. Being hit by explosives means for me that I'm dead. And when I'm not, my first reaction is to drop everything then re-engage boost to GTFO. The stun has never, ever bothered me one bit. As a pilot the only effect it has on me is that I am forced to adapt to a do-or-die situation - 500 HP doesn't allow much room for error. I can't say I've noticed many kills gained by the stun effect either. My TOW is usually used either as a last-hit, or I fire then strafe behind cover. The strafing shots are used to shave off a hefty chunk of HP for me to come flying around the next corner with the SMC firing on all cylinders, and a second TOW follows that to -usually- land the killing blow. Rarely, if ever, do I put myself in situations where the stun provides obvious advantages.

Another note on being hit by this: I've had -many- matches where I'm forced to fight toe to toe with up to four people at once, by myself. I can fight my way out and escape about 50% of the time. The other half, I die. That death usually takes about 15-20 seconds because I'm moving around so much that it's difficult for any explosives to land enough damage to trigger the stun mechanic. It's not difficult at all to work around. This mechanic does not break the game for me even though I pilot a mech that is supposedly hit the hardest.

Server Issues Related to the "Problem":
For people that have connection issues (I don't have them, yay me!), I can see this being a bit of an issue. Being stunned in the server, but your client saying otherwise, only to have the server drag you back to being stunned could get very annoying very quickly. Fun-sucking, I would imagine.

Thoughts on a "Realistic" Physics Engine:
I would love to see one. I can think of many, MANY scenarios where using the TOW to 'bump' an enemy into a position I like. This suits my playstyle for the Berserker very well seeing as I don't utilize the stun mechanic. Overall, more useful to me.

TL;DR
Under good CPU/connection conditions, I see absolutely no issue with the current mechanic. It doesn't put me as a player at a disadvantage against any mech, and I haven't been able to effectively abuse the mechanic in my favor. It's a combat condition that must be worked around, and I like having that in the game.

On the note of connection issues, a more realistic physics engine would be great.

My personal preference: I would like to see a more realistic approach as well. I won't complain if it stays as-is, but I can see how a more realistic system would be useful to my preferred mech class.

[BuDeKai]

after further consideration and some time to really observe the issue in game this weekend i would have to agree the reaction the mechs have to explosives definitely needs some work. i would however still like to see some form of push and shove as a result of explosives, but definitely a better implementation

[Nitris]

I too played some more over the weekend and stand by my point.

No mech should get stopped dead if boosting away from something and being hit in the back by a seeker or any other kind of explosive. It makes no sense.
I'd personally be fine with a more 'life like' reaction to explosions, meaning if you take the example above, the mech should infact get a boost from the explosion pushing it away from the point of impact.

Even with the nerf of the seeker launcher from CBE3, the rocketeer is actually more dangerous now than before. Mobility is life and having the ability to totally stop someone's movement with such a rapid fire attack (Rev-GL too) is extremely nasty.

If we take the "average" ping and connection and all those other things to get the "average scenario" for a game, there is going to be a lot of server client sync issues. This will probably result in a lot of people being snapped back to where they were even if they dodged an attack on their screen, but the server didn't think so. Dealing with the damage being taken is bad enough, but being snapped back and all movement/inertia nulled is just devastating.

In one of my latest games there was a whole second delay in which I had finished the dodge move, and begun charging my HEAT cannon and strafing (successfully dodging the TOW on my screen) before I got snapped back roughly half the distance of the dodge and had my movement reset while taking a huge chunk of damage. On top of all that my HEAT cannon lost all of its charge. Damnit.

This is not enjoyable gameplay, and is currently unavoidable for me it seems-- the MatchMaker has got an issue with me, I swear.
I reckon it is gonna be pretty much unavoidable for anyone with 100+ ping too, but I have nothing but anecdotal evidence.

Gotta say I much prefered not having this feature at all, but again I think it could work if changed to actually give knockback based on point of explosion, rather than deadstop.

[Karaipantsu]

Was playing my Sharpie against a team loaded with Rocketeers tonite in Seige on Origin.  I couldn't get more than one volley off without those bastards knocking me off my perch with explosions.  Really freaking annoying.

Even seeker missiles were knocking me around.

[MrZaku]

I like the stun. It seems like the high-mobility A classes have a lot of advantages over other mechs since dodging is so important in Hawken, so it's nice to have one way to help deal with them. When I play my scout I do far better than playing my grenadier or bruiser, and the main way I get killed is by being left vulnerable after an explosion. Although getting stunned by the REV-GL is lame, given its high rate of fire. Maybe the other weapons should just slow briefly after a hit and not bring the target to a full stop. If it just pushes them a little and doesn't slow/stun them, most of the time they'll still be able to fly around the corner and escape or continue poking you down. Just my two cents. I'm fairly new to the game and only have 12 hours of play time, so it's definitely possible I just haven't reached the level of play where A classes are on-par with other mechs, and this isn't needed to help counter them.

Edited by MrZaku, December 18 2012 - 03:38 AM.

[Kronguard]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 14 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Makina, on December 14 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

I know this is a real pain, but I like that it does that, feels more natural to me

But is it good gameplay_
Feelings are subjective. Can you show me why explosive stuns are a good mechanic with reason_

I can.
It makes people be more careful,and try to maneuver their mechs at best ability they can possibly achieve.
Given the nature of the game,there should be a mechanic that punishes players in more ways than just HP loss when getting hit,especially considering the fact that a good player will almost always be able to get away and repair.
You take the stuns away,and i can guarantee that ill be near immortal with my brawler,unless i get ambushed by several enemies.

I like the punishments they got on movements in general,it forces you to think what you do.
Remove those mechanics and folks at MWO will be right saying that this is just CoD in steel suites.

[Tetsuro]

I absolutely hate the stun mechanic of explosives, especially when I get warped back into place after a slide dodge because someone shot a missile and it kind of hit me.

Now that doesn't mean I necessarily think it should be removed, but it definitely needs tweaking.  I like the idea of missiles having impact, in fact I think more guns should.  They should not however stop you dead in place.

Edited by Tetsuro, December 18 2012 - 04:46 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Kronguard, on December 18 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on December 14 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Makina, on December 14 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

I know this is a real pain, but I like that it does that, feels more natural to me

But is it good gameplay_
Feelings are subjective. Can you show me why explosive stuns are a good mechanic with reason_

I can.
It makes people be more careful,and try to maneuver their mechs at best ability they can possibly achieve.
Given the nature of the game,there should be a mechanic that punishes players in more ways than just HP loss when getting hit,especially considering the fact that a good player will almost always be able to get away and repair.
You take the stuns away,and i can guarantee that ill be near immortal with my brawler,unless i get ambushed by several enemies.

I like the punishments they got on movements in general,it forces you to think what you do.
Remove those mechanics and folks at MWO will be right saying that this is just CoD in steel suites.

So you're okay with the fact that you can get hit by splash in the back while moving away, yet instead of pushing you even further away, it completely stops you, despite hitting you from behind, and not even on direct impact_

[Nitris]

This feature is really beginning to frustrate me. I'm having to quit Hawken and go do other things to cool off. I've never had to do this before for Hawken and I've played since Alpha2.

If it worked properly and didn't have the ridiculous 'delay-then-snap-back' thing going on it'd be fine. As it is, it rips me out of the immersion and always causes a "WTF_!" moment. With TOWs and Grenades I swear I dodge the projectiles on my screen, but still get snapped back and hit because the server disagrees. Getting even just barely clipped by any explosion (Say even if I take barely 10HP damage) I find myself snapping back and/or deadstopping.
How is this fun gameplay_!

[Necro]

It should be lessened, directional and only with direct hits,

[Karaipantsu]

Nitris, on December 19 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

This feature is really beginning to frustrate me. I'm having to quit Hawken and go do other things to cool off. I've never had to do this before for Hawken and I've played since Alpha2.

I'm noticing it more and more often, ending up in places staring at walls and wondering how the hell I got there.  The worst map offender by far is Origin.  I'll have it happen 2 or 3 times a match, whereas on other maps it's once or twice every couple of games.

[fwip]

From a 'flavor' approach, you could probably justify explosives stopping you as the mech being knocked off-balance and needing to stabilize itself before moving again (you get hit in the back, you stumble and need to catch yourself before resuming boosting).

That said, I think I agree with most people in this thread that a physics based knock-you-around approach would be preferable to a stun-in-place mechanic.

Edited by fwip, December 20 2012 - 10:43 AM.

[TwiceDead]

TwiceDead, on December 15 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

I felt it more than once, and exploited it more than once. It works both ways, what the enemy can do to you, you can do to them. I find it a nice addition that the heavier mechs aren't as affected by this as the lighter ones, a nice trade-off for heightened/lessened mobility if you ask me.

In short: I like it. Makes it feel like explosives hurt, and should be dodged at all cost.

fuzzy bunny this, it's pissing me off now.

[BuDeKai]

TwiceDead, on December 20 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

TwiceDead, on December 15 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

I felt it more than once, and exploited it more than once. It works both ways, what the enemy can do to you, you can do to them. I find it a nice addition that the heavier mechs aren't as affected by this as the lighter ones, a nice trade-off for heightened/lessened mobility if you ask me.

In short: I like it. Makes it feel like explosives hurt, and should be dodged at all cost.

fuzzy bunny this, it's pissing me off now.

ya once u get stunned 3 times in a row, thats when u say to urself "is this the bad gameplay mechanic, or the worst"

[_Somnophor_]

I have wondered what the hell was going on in games, now I have a name for this condition.  But, honestly, I would leave it.  In my scout I get hit with this a LOT, and it is frustrating as hell, but it has taught me that I should be faster.  I have not seen the issue of getting shot in the ass and stopping though, but I think that is due to the fact that I don't run as much as I should and tend to die in a ball of explosive fire.  But yeah, explosion and then end up facing a wall pisses me off greatly, and then eating another cause I am disoriented   I have probably died this way more than any other.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Aelieth, on December 14 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Just like you said, sometimes they stop you or jar you to a side. Doesn't seem game breaking to me and simply forces a person to recover where they are and find their bearings. Maybe it's an annoyance to a class A, but the class C's don't bounce around as much. Trade offs of smaller vs larger mechs perhaps_ Can you take that hit and still stand without flinching too much, or do you give way when that tow rocket hits you head on_

The stun mechanic affects C-mechs exactly the same as it affect A-mechs.

[Krellus]

Explosions should push you around, not stop you from moving. Makes sense to me and would be more fun overall I think.

[Nitris]

This is like three pages back.
Consider this a bump, because I think this is a very important issue that needs to be addressed.
I have more-or-less said everything I want to on this subject.

[defekt]

I approve of ^this bump.  

What worries me most is that a third of respondents (at time of posting) think the explosive dodge interrupt mechanic is okay.  As I said in another thread, I suspect that 'stunlock' is an unintended side effect of an otherwise fairly benign explosive nudge routine.