68 replies to this topic

[Silk_Sk]

This has nothing to do with the internals, or it being too ugly, or too similar to the assault mech. While It is too similar (the exact same mech for a long time in fact), I don't really mind. The main issue I have with the recruit mech is actually a problem I have with the game in general and that is the TOW launcher.

Before I begin, let me make something clear. I do not think the TOW itself is OP (although if I'm angry I may say so). They could buff it or nerf it, I don't really care. The problem is the role it currently plays in the game.

The TOW is a great weapon. It is low-risk/high-reward, easy to learn, worth it to master, and I am absolutely sick of seeing them everywhere. Such a great weapon should be earned, not handed out like free candy to anyone who gives this game a few minutes of their time. If you start with the TOW, there's nowhere to go but down. Who wants to keep playing a game where you start out with the most powerful and easy to use weapon_

There is another problem this is causing. Everyone in a game has a TOW and whoever doesn't will be at a disadvantage due to its inherent nature. I've been forcing myself not to use it ever since Alpha 2. I've played Infiltrator, Sharpshooter, Rocketeer, anything without a TOW up until now. But I recently broke down and starting using the Berzerker. It was then that something amazing happened. My fear disappeared. I finally had the ultimate weapon in my hand and I didn't have to manipulate my opponents into a situation where my weapons were more effective. I had been playing with a handicap up until then because everyone but me had a TOW. This is just wrong.

I repeat, the TOW is not OP, but it is a prize weapon. It should not be the common as dirt mech equivalent of a free AOL trial. Therefore, the recruit mech needs a new loadout. This is the best possible solution. But what weapons should it have_ I thought a lot about this. The starting weapons should strike a balance between power and ease of use. A balance the current recruit lacks due to having both the TOW and the most powerful fully automatic weapon in the game: the assault sniper rifle.

There are currently four special weapons in the game. The TOW, the grenade launcher, the sabot, and the hellfires. Of these, the best choice of starting weapon for someone just picking up the game is the GL. The Sabot has too narrow a function and the hellfires would be even worst than the TOW as a recruit standard (can you imagine_ INCOMING all gorramed day. ick). The grenade launcher on the other hand is a very understandable and versatile weapon that would not drastically alter a match by being too common. Only in the hands of a skilled player can it create the same pressure that a novice with a TOW does. This is what everyone should start with.

So, what primary should the recruit start with_ The sub-machine cannon, definitely. It is by far the most vanilla gun in the game, with no clear strengths, weaknesses, or even a definitive role. Why this was not the starting weapon from the get-go I have no idea because that's clearly what it is best suited for.

To summarize, the CR-T Recruit that everyone starts with should be a B-class equipped with a GL and an SMC. Basically, a medium sized Vanguard Cupcake. Not only would this put the TOW in it's proper place, it would solve the problem of people being disappointed when they buy any mech that doesn't have one. The game would stop being defined by match after match of dodge-the-rocket and become more fun.

One last thing. To diversify things more and increase the hook potential of the game. I suggest all CR-Ts start at level 7 with whatever alternate weapon seems best. Also, everyone should start with 4500 credits or so. I shouldn't have to explain why.

Edited by Silk_Sk, December 23 2012 - 10:28 AM.

[marshalade]

Well said, but I don't like that you're throwing my Cupcake's exclusive loadout at the recruit mech.

[Silk_Sk]

marshalade, on December 23 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Well said, but I don't like that you're throwing my Cupcake's exclusive loadout at the recruit mech.

Several mechs are already bigger or smaller versions of other mechs. I arrived at my conclusion logically anyway. It's only coincidence that its loadout is the same.

[Pursang]

I can't really tell if you dislike the CR-T itself, or want to limit the TOW to the "elite few" because it's the end all and be all of weapon systems.

Look, there's a reason why the CR-T is given two of the most robust weapons in the game, the Assault Rifle and the TOW. They're relatively easy to come to grips with, easy to handle, and easy to own with. Perfect for the new player.

[Silk_Sk]

Pursang, on December 23 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

I can't really tell if you dislike the CR-T itself, or want to limit the TOW to the "elite few" because it's the end all and be all of weapon systems.

Look, there's a reason why the CR-T is given two of the most robust weapons in the game, the Assault Rifle and the TOW. They're relatively easy to come to grips with, easy to handle, and easy to own with. Perfect for the new player.

No, this is the worst thing for a new player to start out with. It's far too powerful to be so common and so easy to use it's difficult to start using anything else. Who would want to keep playing a game if you have to grind for hours just to purchase an inferior mech_ In case you haven't noticed, this what is actually happening. The CR-T recruit is hurting this game because the devs are giving new players too much power in hopes it will convince them to stay. This way of thinking is wrong because new players don't know the difference between good and bad weapons yet. Most everyone is using the same weapon as them so they won't feel outmatched in most situations. If they happen to come across a better player with a better weapon, they will be more encouraged to work towards earning it. Currently, this is not the case because everyone already has that better weapon.

[Subdivision]

To me it shouldn't matter what new players are given when they join provided they enter an environment that welcome them into the game where they can play other new players and not get crushed by anything they would decide is overpowered or a paid for feature. They are wrong when they think so but it still stops them from wishing to continue playing which is the issue for me. Therefore I agree with Pursang that the loadout is suited to just those ends. They are easy to pick, does-what-it-says-on-the-tin weapons in a rifle and rocket launcher (ignoring the 'its not a real TOW' saga) that helps people get into the game. That is extremely vital to the longevity of the game in its ability to bring new and more players in.

Your issue seems perfectly reasonable to me tho. The TOW is too strong to be in everyone's garage from the get go and should be earnt/paid for. I'd be interested to see how the GL would synergise on the CRT and that would leave the assault in its own class once again with a different secondary. The only thing I disagree on is giving people 4500 HC for free when they start... I still think it should be earnt but maybe if they complete a series of training exercises and tasks they can obtain a nice bonus amount. Therefore they still have to put some decent time in and get a hold of things before they get it and buy something they actually don't want/need/like.

*EDIT* Also, I think you're understating all the other mechs without the TOW. I wouldn't say they are inferior but that's just my opinion on that!

Edited by Subdivision, December 23 2012 - 10:27 AM.

[Pursang]

Silk_Sk, on December 23 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Pursang, on December 23 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

I can't really tell if you dislike the CR-T itself, or want to limit the TOW to the "elite few" because it's the end all and be all of weapon systems.

Look, there's a reason why the CR-T is given two of the most robust weapons in the game, the Assault Rifle and the TOW. They're relatively easy to come to grips with, easy to handle, and easy to own with. Perfect for the new player.

No, this is the worst thing for a new player to start out with. It's far too powerful to be so common and so easy to use it's difficult to start using anything else. Who would want to keep playing a game if you have to grind for hours just to purchase an inferior mech_ In case you haven't noticed, this what is actually happening. The CR-T recruit is hurting this game because the devs are giving new players too much power in hopes it will convince them to stay. This way of thinking is wrong because new players don't know the difference between good and bad weapons yet. Most everyone is using the same weapon as them so they won't feel outmatched in most situations. If they happen to come across a better player with a better weapon, they will be more encouraged to work towards earning it. Currently, this is not the case because everyone already has that better weapon.

Well it's working as intended, isn't it_ Besides, why does it matter to you whether people are using one weapon system over another_ As you said it yourself, the TOW is balanced. It's sheer simplicity makes for a good starter weapon.

[Riveted]

Pursang, on December 23 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Well it's working as intended, isn't it_ Besides, why does it matter to you whether people are using one weapon system over another_ As you said it yourself, the TOW is balanced. It's sheer simplicity makes for a good starter weapon.

I think the problem is that it's actually a disappointment to work with the mech for a while, get enough credits to purchase another one, and then realize that you already have one of the best mechs/loadouts in the game.

Edited by Riveted, December 23 2012 - 10:29 AM.

[Pursang]

Riveted, on December 23 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

I think the problem is that it's actually a disappointment to work with the mech for a while, get enough credits to purchase another one, and then realize that you already have one of the best mechs/loadouts in the game.

Well, at least it can't be said that veterans have a noticeable advantage.

[Phaaze]

[Silk_Sk]

Subdivision, on December 23 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

*EDIT* Also, I think you're understating all the other mechs without the TOW. I wouldn't say they are inferior but that's just my opinion on that!

Pursang, on December 23 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Well it's working as intended, isn't it_ Besides, why does it matter to you whether people are using one weapon system over another_ As you said it yourself, the TOW is balanced. It's sheer simplicity makes for a good starter weapon.

Both of you don't seem to get what I'm saying. The problem with the TOW is not one of weapon balance. Just one or two people using a TOW do not have any real advantage in a match. But the same one or two people being the only ones NOT using a TOW have a distinct handicap. This is the unfortunate state the game is currently in due to the CR-T.

Whether or not you think so, starting weapons absolutely matter to a game's longevity. If things stay the way the are, this game will have a harder time catching on to the larger gaming community. Yes, the current load-out is working as intended, but those intentions are wrong.

Edited by Silk_Sk, December 23 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[BizzyBum]

It's a double-edged sword, and I see where the Devs are coming from.

They don't want new players to start with the Recruit which is awful compared to other mechs. The new player would just see Vets with level 25 Sharpshooters, Brawlers, etc. own them and they will stop playing immediately because they don't want to grind to reach a level playing field or they don't want to spend money on the F2P system.

The way it is now, a level 1 Recruit can take out a level 25 mech no problem. It gives the new player a feeling like they aren't gimped and a prisoner to a F2P system from the start.

I think a more beneficial solution is to tweak the TOW in general.

[Pursang]

Silk_Sk, on December 23 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Subdivision, on December 23 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

*EDIT* Also, I think you're understating all the other mechs without the TOW. I wouldn't say they are inferior but that's just my opinion on that!

Pursang, on December 23 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Well it's working as intended, isn't it_ Besides, why does it matter to you whether people are using one weapon system over another_ As you said it yourself, the TOW is balanced. It's sheer simplicity makes for a good starter weapon.

Both of you don't seem to get what I'm saying. The problem with the TOW is not one of weapon balance. Just one or two people using a TOW do not have any real advantage in a match. But the same one or two people being the only ones NOT using a TOW have a distinct handicap. This is the unfortunate state the game is currently in due to the CR-T.

Whether or not you think so, starting weapons absolutely matter to a game's longevity. If things stay the way the are, this game will have a harder time catching on to the larger gaming community. Yes, the current load-out is working as intended, but those intentions are wrong.

You still haven't explained how you think the TOW is balanced, while at the same time saying that not using the TOW gives players a "distinct handicap". It looks like you're arguing with yourself.

[Silk_Sk]

Pursang, on December 23 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

Silk_Sk, on December 23 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Subdivision, on December 23 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

*EDIT* Also, I think you're understating all the other mechs without the TOW. I wouldn't say they are inferior but that's just my opinion on that!

Pursang, on December 23 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Well it's working as intended, isn't it_ Besides, why does it matter to you whether people are using one weapon system over another_ As you said it yourself, the TOW is balanced. It's sheer simplicity makes for a good starter weapon.

Both of you don't seem to get what I'm saying. The problem with the TOW is not one of weapon balance. Just one or two people using a TOW do not have any real advantage in a match. But the same one or two people being the only ones NOT using a TOW have a distinct handicap. This is the unfortunate state the game is currently in due to the CR-T.

Whether or not you think so, starting weapons absolutely matter to a game's longevity. If things stay the way the are, this game will have a harder time catching on to the larger gaming community. Yes, the current load-out is working as intended, but those intentions are wrong.

You still haven't explained how you think the TOW is balanced, while at the same time saying that not using the TOW gives players a "distinct handicap". It looks like you're arguing with yourself.

And it looks like you're ignoring a very important detail in my argument. So, I am going to try repeating my point again. In a match where almost everyone has a TOW, anyone not using one is handicapped. BUT they will not have an advantage if those same players were using the TOW in a match where distribution of weapons was more diverse. Is that clear enough_ The weapon itself is balanced, period. Stop trying argue something completely beside the point to what I'm saying.

Watch the video Phaaze posted. It illustrates the problem quite nicely. Namely, there's no reason not to use anything but the TOW even if there are more powerful options that take more skill to pull off.

Edited by Silk_Sk, December 23 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

lol i got flamed for saying without dual wielding the game would have an overabundance of TOW launchers, then asian joy killer posted a video showing how 'it wasn't just tow'.

I could of pointed out to him that when the recruits come (the threadnaught was in CB3 days) there would be tow-spam. but heh...i like being right and smug like now.

i suggest the abilty to swap out the secondary weapon on all mechs for a selected weapon. Often a copy of the primary woman (e.g. on beserker two SMGs) .

this way you don't unlock it until higher levels, and you don't have TOW LAUNCHER ONLINE.

Perhaps in early beta's it was boring game-play when people could pick any weapon for either arm. But that problem was solved with the class system......however a new problem was made.

TOW LAUNCHER ONLINE

my suggested fix is simple, using assets that mostly already exist.

[Pursang]

Silk_Sk, on December 23 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Pursang, on December 23 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

Silk_Sk, on December 23 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Subdivision, on December 23 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

*EDIT* Also, I think you're understating all the other mechs without the TOW. I wouldn't say they are inferior but that's just my opinion on that!

Pursang, on December 23 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Well it's working as intended, isn't it_ Besides, why does it matter to you whether people are using one weapon system over another_ As you said it yourself, the TOW is balanced. It's sheer simplicity makes for a good starter weapon.

Both of you don't seem to get what I'm saying. The problem with the TOW is not one of weapon balance. Just one or two people using a TOW do not have any real advantage in a match. But the same one or two people being the only ones NOT using a TOW have a distinct handicap. This is the unfortunate state the game is currently in due to the CR-T.

Whether or not you think so, starting weapons absolutely matter to a game's longevity. If things stay the way the are, this game will have a harder time catching on to the larger gaming community. Yes, the current load-out is working as intended, but those intentions are wrong.

You still haven't explained how you think the TOW is balanced, while at the same time saying that not using the TOW gives players a "distinct handicap". It looks like you're arguing with yourself.

And it looks like you're ignoring a very important detail in my argument. So, I am going to try repeating my point again. In a match where almost everyone has a TOW, anyone not using one is handicapped. BUT they will not have an advantage if they were using the TOW in a match where distribution of weapons was more diverse. Is that clear enough_ The weapon is balanced, period. Stop trying argue something completely besides the point to what I'm saying.

Watch the video Phaaze posted. It illustrates the problem quite nicely. Namely, there's no reason not to use anything but the TOW even if there are more powerful options that take more skill to pull off.

And you still haven't explained why weapon distribution has anything to do with why the CR-T shouldn't have the TOW.

I did watch the video that Phaaze posted, and I agree with everything that it said. The TOW is this game's "FOO". New players need a simple but powerful weapon to help balance the odds against veteran players. What the developers need to do however, is to find a happy medium so as to ween people off of the CR-T and onto high-skilled mechs/weapon systems.

[Subdivision]

Silk_Sk, on December 23 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Subdivision, on December 23 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

*EDIT* Also, I think you're understating all the other mechs without the TOW. I wouldn't say they are inferior but that's just my opinion on that!

you don't seem to get what I'm saying. The problem with the TOW is not one of weapon balance. Just one or two people using a TOW do not have any real advantage in a match. But the same one or two people being the only ones NOT using a TOW have a distinct handicap.

That completely contradicts itself. You keep saying you don't think TOW is OP. Fine, but everything you are saying reads otherwise. Saying the other weapons have a disadvantage/handicap is the same as saying the TOW has an advantage over them. Even if that is from the ease of use of the weapon, that is still an issue. If you feel the TOW is fine in comparison to all the other secondaries, then stop saying the others are worse in some manner.

Pursang, on December 23 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

It looks like you're arguing with yourself.

In the end of the day, it comes down to the capabilities of the player using what they have at their disposal. Variety from weapons comes from how they are used and the combinations they come in. That's why people play different mechs. They play to their personal strengths. If that is the case and people are all using the TOW then it might be an issue but because it is on the free starting mech and everyone isn't using purely TOW equipped mechs, I don't have an issue myself.

Silk_Sk, on December 23 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Whether or not you think so, starting weapons absolutely matter to a game's longevity. If things stay the way the are, this game will have a harder time catching on to the larger gaming community. Yes, the current load-out is working as intended, but those intentions are wrong.

What should the intentions be exactly_ I would hate this game to become one like MWO or WoT where you start off with poor equipment and need to grind and grind or pay to get something half decent. Sure SMC+GL combo isn't bad by any means but to me I don't think we should be starting peolpe off on a bottom rung so to speak which is what your suggestion seems to be. If that's wrong sorry, but like I said, your posts are self-contradicting so its hard to tell. IMO the current setup is balanced and so I don't see an issue. Like I stated earlier I would like to see the TOW swapped with GL to see how that works out and to give the assault some unique character back. But I don't see it terribly necessary

[AsianJoyKiller]

rdKNIGHTMAREZ, on December 23 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

lol i got flamed for saying without dual wielding the game would have an overabundance of TOW launchers, then asian joy killer posted a video showing how 'it wasn't just tow'.

I could of pointed out to him that when the recruits come (the threadnaught was in CB3 days) there would be tow-spam. but heh...i like being right and smug like now.

I like the part where you've totally ignored how this is a entirely new beta phase and the game's mechanics have changed extensively, which changes the context entirely and make your statement you made back then irrelevant now.

[Silk_Sk]

Subdivision, on December 23 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

That completely contradicts itself. You keep saying you don't think TOW is OP. Fine, but everything you are saying reads otherwise. Saying the other weapons have a disadvantage/handicap is the same as saying the TOW has an advantage over them. Even if that is from the ease of use of the weapon, that is still an issue. If you feel the TOW is fine in comparison to all the other secondaries, then stop saying the others are worse in some manner.

I can't believe I'm not getting through so I'll just keep repeating myself in different ways.

If you are the ONLY person in a match with a TOW launcher, you do not have an advantage.

If you are the only person in a match WITHOUT a TOW launcher, you are in big trouble.

How are those two statements contradictory_ It's rather obvious isn't it_ The solution to this problem is not to nerf the weapon. This would only be the case if the gun was OP. The solution is to make the weapon less common. People learn quickly that using something besides the TOW in a game where everyone has one will hurt their performance. If the situation were different, if the TOW wasn't so common, people would be more encouraged to diversify their play-style. Watch that Extra Credits video.

[Pursang]

Silk_Sk, on December 23 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

Subdivision, on December 23 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

That completely contradicts itself. You keep saying you don't think TOW is OP. Fine, but everything you are saying reads otherwise. Saying the other weapons have a disadvantage/handicap is the same as saying the TOW has an advantage over them. Even if that is from the ease of use of the weapon, that is still an issue. If you feel the TOW is fine in comparison to all the other secondaries, then stop saying the others are worse in some manner.

I can't believe I'm not getting through so I'll just keep repeating myself in different ways.

If you are the ONLY person in a match with a TOW launcher, you do not have an advantage.

If you are the only person in a match WITHOUT a TOW launcher, you are in big trouble.

How are those two statements contradictory_ It's rather obvious isn't it_ The solution to this problem is not to nerf the weapon. This would only be the case if the gun was OP. The solution is to make the weapon less common. People learn quickly that using something besides the TOW in a game where everyone has one will hurt their performance. If the situation were different, if the TOW wasn't so common, people would be more encouraged to diversify their play-style. Watch that Extra Credits video.

You know, no matter how many times you say something, it doesn't make it any truer.