68 replies to this topic

[Subdivision]

Silk_Sk, on December 23 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

If you are the ONLY person in a match with a TOW launcher, you do not have an advantage.

If you are the only person in a match WITHOUT a TOW launcher, you are in big trouble.

Why_

And that isn't how *I read* any of your other replies, sorry.

*EDITED*

Edited by Subdivision, December 23 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

Quote

I like the part where you've totally ignored how this is a entirely new beta phase and the game's mechanics have changed extensively, which changes the context entirely and make your statement you made back then irrelevant now.

hahhahahahahahahahahahahahahah you would make a good politician

it's simple, you were wrong. We now have TOW LAUNCHER online. you even made a video to 'prove me wrong', but it has backfired when a huge chunk of the players are in recruit mechs.

Edited by rdKNIGHTMAREZ, December 23 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[Silk_Sk]

Subdivision, on December 23 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

Silk_Sk, on December 23 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

If you are the ONLY person in a match with a TOW launcher, you do not have an advantage.

If you are the only person in a match WITHOUT a TOW launcher, you are in big trouble.

Why_

And that isn't how *I read* any of your other replies, sorry.

*EDITED*

Read them again. I must have said variations those two sentences at least three times. But, maybe there's something else I should make clear. "More powerful" does not mean "overpowered." The TOW launcher IS more powerful than the other special weapons but this does not make it overpowered. In a 1v1, a player with some skill can easily overcome it. But a game where everyone has a TOW isn't a real game. That's more like a custom game-type. Can you imagine Halo being as successful as it is if everyone started every game with a rocket launcher_ The TOW isn't nearly as extreme as that but do you see my point_

[Fantus_Longhorn]

What Silk is saying is that it isn't the TOW which is unbalanced, it's the sheer number of them from day one which is making the game unbalanced. Every man and his dog has that weapon and it can be incredibly effective in the hands of someone new to the game.
A weapon like that is needed for new players, it empowers them and keeps them in the game. However, the TOW may not be the best for this.

I think his suggestion of the GL/SMC combo may suit better. The SMC is simple to use and effective, point and squeeze. The GL can be very effective, it's suppression effect will empower the player whilst learning to use it properly will lead to kills.
The new players still have power and giving them a slightly higher level mech will help to keep in line with other players who have been able to get a new mech.

[SmaCkexe]

Silk_Sk, on December 23 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

marshalade, on December 23 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Well said, but I don't like that you're throwing my Cupcake's exclusive loadout at the recruit mech.

Several mechs are already bigger or smaller versions of other mechs. I arrived at my conclusion logically anyway. It's only coincidence that its loadout is the same.

GL>TOW

Nuff said ...

[SmaCkexe]

Fantus_Longhorn, on December 23 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

What Silk is saying is that it isn't the TOW which is unbalanced, it's the sheer number of them from day one which is making the game unbalanced. Every man and his dog has that weapon and it can be incredibly effective in the hands of someone new to the game.
A weapon like that is needed for new players, it empowers them and keeps them in the game. However, the TOW may not be the best for this.

I think his suggestion of the GL/SMC combo may suit better. The SMC is simple to use and effective, point and squeeze. The GL can be very effective, it's suppression effect will empower the player whilst learning to use it properly will lead to kills.
The new players still have power and giving them a slightly higher level mech will help to keep in line with other players who have been able to get a new mech.

GL is far more difficult to learn than the TOW. It involved arc and more control.  You have to move your reticule off the target and judge distance vs arc.  You do not want to give them a weapon like the GL right out of the gate because of the difficulty involved in learning to play with it.   While I do agree the TOW is very strong and there are too many of them ... I think the more logical answer it to give them a weaker main weapon to compensate.  Let them feel empowered with their big ass rocket and give them a tiny SMC pea shooter to compensate.   When you think about all the future weapons they have planned ... this all becomes a moot point. Right now there are limited weapons ... I would love to see some more mechs with the Sabot!

[Rosengren]

If the TOW launcher is so overwhelmingly good when used in large numbers that it affects team composition, stopping new players from getting one right away wouldn't really help. They'd just play for a while and then acquire their own unit. Unless of course they got sick of losing to TOW barrages and quit.

So just make the TOW a tiny bit less good and/or make other secondaries a tiny bit better. The fundamental concept behind the TOW is perfectly acceptable because it's a simple weapon that rewards skill. You don't need to be great to get some minimum use out of it but there is clear room to grow into.


Honestly, out of all the mechs to revamp, I think that the Assault needs it the most because it's just a reskinned CRT. If the CRT were revamped, though, I'd rather see it receive a wider set of options for its main weapons. It's got varying flavours of bullet hoses now and I guess they got short to mid-range fighting covered but the SMC and the vulcan could be replaced with other styles of short-range stuff. The light flak and some kind of light grenade launcher would actually be nice. You could then play the CRT and figure out what style of weaponry you want your future mech to specialise in.

Edited by Rosengren, December 23 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[145154151164145]

This is the exact reason why heat scout out classes infiltrator now.  I quote killyg "Why is the tow so much easier than grenade launcher_"  Once you have the tow you are spoiled and if its working,  your not going to give it up.  I suggest developing a new weapon for recruits.  A completely dumb fire rocket salvo of maybe 3 rockets that deal moderate damage but move quickly and have no secondary function.

Edited by 145154151164145, December 23 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

and then that weapon becomes the spamed weapon.

the problem is that no-one can swap their secondary out for another weapon. As long as its only 1 of 2 choices, and the different classes get different choices...then the game will be balanced, fun dynamic and better.

The problem isn't the TOw as much as it is the inability to chose which gun i have on half of my mech.

make it something that unlocks at high lvl's to really spice up the gameplay.

Edited by rdKNIGHTMAREZ, December 23 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[marshalade]

Don't feed the troll.

[Broken_Bird]

Coming from personal experience, From both playing a Recruit and from haveing a dedicated Infiltrator, I can say that there is a difference in combat between the two weapons (the TOW and GL), but that's because they require different playstyles to use.  The TOW is a strait fire weapon that does AOE burst damage, but it detonates on whatever it hits.  The GL on the other hand, can bounce off walls and around corners, and learning how to use that takes time and a different mindset.  Grenades still pop if they hit a target, but they offer a different option for delivery, and I have gotten more than a few solid kills taking advantage of that fact.  The real question is if the TOW is more powerful because of it's straight fire or not, because the damage, as I see it, is almost identical, and I feel that answer is no.  It just has a simpler playstyle, as opposed to something like the GL.  Which I think was the point.  You can argue that the TOW is too OP because of that fact, but the truth is there nothing stopping a player from being just as good, or better, with one of the other heavy weapons.  It just takes practice.

The recruit is very cut and paste, yes, and it's easy to learn and easy to use, especially with it's flash cooling system and straitforward weapons options, but that's the point, isn't it_  In truth, it's no more or less powerful than the other secondaries.  If you want a real broken weapon, look at the HEAT cannon.  The thing does damage equal to an MG with straight fire but can be charged up to a TOW's level of damage after some four seconds.  Nothing takes a mech out faster than a cloaked Infiltrator coming up on your mech and hugging it with a grenade and HEAT combo, and god help you if they have hand grenades as their offensive internal as well.  But hey, it's a tactic.

That's my entire point.  TOW or GL, it's all about tactics, and the only difference is being able to see and take advantage of them.  That's also why I'm against taking the TOW from recruits, or even making it harder to access.  It's not about power, but playstyle, and tactics above all else.

[Akrium]

Just going to say this...

the tow is a perfect weapon for people to join into the game using. Multiple FPS games over the ages have had the rocket launcher as a primary weapon in them. This is something many people find common ground with and tends to be suited for the avg user on easy of use but not too crazy op because it does still take skill to use truly well. The GL requires more skill to use than the ToW, and thus wouldn't be the best suited starting weapon. They want a smooth intro into the game. It already has a steeper learning curve due to the mobility of the game. Making people learn the GL mechanics as well on top of it all could easily be overwhelming.

As it stands, the CRT is the perfect introduction into the game. It gives you enough tools to do well and it could be a good money maker for a while until you want to try something new.

[wintersborn]

The Tow launcher is the best secondary in the game by far there is no arguing that fact. The CR-T is after much frustration the best mech in the game due to the TOW (its not a TOW so re name it) and the assault rifle. Soo many bugs including the forum that only allows this line through text : (

[wintersborn]

Oh so my second post allows me to use normal text................grrrrrrr.

[Nitris]

Got a friend that has played with me from Alpha 2, and after two matches of Assault back then, he decided he wanted none of it and went C class. Since OB he picked up rocketeer and had some fun, but his trial ran out and he was stuck with CRT.
First of all he did at least two sometimes even three times better with the CRT rather than the rocketeer, even having much more experience with the rocketeer.
Secondly he hates how "easy mode" it is. Claims he even renamed it something along those lines. Heh.

My point is that how the CRT currently is, it is faaaaar too easy to use and do well with. There is basically no leraning curve other than air bursting, and that isn't really important because you can just learn to aim at the floor to hit them with the AOE.
I think there needs to be some learning curve. As it currently is, there is absolutely no incentive to pick up a different mech, as you can easily wreck every other mech using the CRT, and with average skill.

Unfortunately I don't see a simple way of doing this. Swapping to a GL makes the CRT have a massively higher learning curve, and that would be offputting to a lot of new players. Swapping out to SMC is pretty pointless because overall it is only slightly worse than the AR and not enough to make any real impact. infact I see a lot of players do better with SMC than AR... RoF difference maybe_
Regardless, I think one possibility could be to very slightly lower the TOW's damage. Not lowered enough to make it worthless, but lowered just enough to make the other secondaries look less pointless to bother learning. Again, as it currently is, it is easy to think that learning a different secondary is just not worth the time.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the free con-less internals provided on the CRT make it far more desirable to stick with than jumping into a new 'naked' mech that you can only get internals with downsides on. I think that lowering the bonus a little bit would help to combat this. Also there is basically no reason to replace the free internals, except for one of them (so I'm told).

Edited by Nitris, December 23 2012 - 03:44 PM.

[Gask]

I agree with this, either their damage or availability should be lowered.  Having played an infiltrator up to 20 I can say that every fight takes more effort and is more dicey than when using a CRT or scout by comparison.

[rdKNIGHTMAREZ]

why not just make the recruit a light mech_ Less hp_ most fights are recruit vs recruit....so it won't matter so much.

and if the recruit is slower than the other lights...so be it.


it wouldn't make the game 'pay to win' because you can still earn hawken credits to get a better mech...

Edited by rdKNIGHTMAREZ, December 23 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[BizzyBum]

I just tried Sharpshooter for the first time and while I know they are meant as support and long range, they are absolutely lolworthy compared to my C-RT. I mean, it's not even close.

[AsianJoyKiller]

BizzyBum, on December 23 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

I just tried Sharpshooter for the first time and while I know they are meant as support and long range, they are absolutely lolworthy compared to my C-RT. I mean, it's not even close.

Sharpshooters require an almost entirely different playstyle to use effectively. Until you can fully get used to it and all the nuances involved, it will perform sub-optimally.

[BizzyBum]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 23 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

BizzyBum, on December 23 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

I just tried Sharpshooter for the first time and while I know they are meant as support and long range, they are absolutely lolworthy compared to my C-RT. I mean, it's not even close.

Sharpshooters require an almost entirely different playstyle to use effectively. Until you can fully get used to it and all the nuances involved, it will perform sub-optimally.

Yeah, it probably didn't help being level 1 having no skill tree and internals.

But man, the C-RT recruit is just easier to play. It really is a crux and the longer it's used the harder it is to effectively use another mech.