58 replies to this topic

[NotKjell]

It should be noted that highlander is by no means the true "competetive" ruleset. It's fun though I'll admit. I would though like to use tournaments as test-beds for the next bit though. We've got a lot to learn and nothing to lose yet so let's keep experimenting with all kinds of rules and see what feels right. We could even do a highlander-esc tournament to see how class balance works out. Do a 4v4 or 5v5 with the restrictions of -

must field 3 different classes from this list at any time -
Rocketeer
Grenadier (rev-gl banned)
Bruiser
Sharpshooter
Cupcake

The remainder can be from here, though no multiples -
Scout
Infiltrator
Berserker
Assault (No CRT)
Brawler

Force the least-used classes to be used and see how they hold up in a team environment.  fuzzy bunny like this would provide useful data for both ourselves and the devs on what needs to be worked on, and should be our focus for the time-being.

[Akrium]

NotKjell, on January 02 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

It should be noted that highlander is by no means the true "competetive" ruleset. It's fun though I'll admit. I would though like to use tournaments as test-beds for the next bit though. We've got a lot to learn and nothing to lose yet so let's keep experimenting with all kinds of rules and see what feels right. We could even do a highlander-esc tournament to see how class balance works out. Do a 4v4 or 5v5 with the restrictions of -

must field 3 different classes from this list at any time -
Rocketeer
Grenadier (rev-gl banned)
Bruiser
Sharpshooter
Cupcake

The remainder can be from here, though no multiples -
Scout
Infiltrator
Berserker
Assault (No CRT)
Brawler

Force the least-used classes to be used and see how they hold up in a team environment.  fuzzy bunny like this would provide useful data for both ourselves and the devs on what needs to be worked on, and should be our focus for the time-being.

Well I don't know about TF2, but it was a good league in TFC days. And it was 7v7 w/ 9 classes. So each team got to choose 2 classes they were not going to use. It cut around the already in place limitations on soldier and hws allowed per team in regular play. Those two classes were just beasts and made game play boring without the restrictions.

I'm not sure how much this makes sense or if it is even warranted. It's almost 3am and I'm totally out of it.

[Zeshi]

NotKjell, on January 02 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

It should be noted that highlander is by no means the true "competetive" ruleset. It's fun though I'll admit. I would though like to use tournaments as test-beds for the next bit though. We've got a lot to learn and nothing to lose yet so let's keep experimenting with all kinds of rules and see what feels right. We could even do a highlander-esc tournament to see how class balance works out. Do a 4v4 or 5v5 with the restrictions of -

must field 3 different classes from this list at any time -
Rocketeer
Grenadier (rev-gl banned)
Bruiser
Sharpshooter
Cupcake

The remainder can be from here, though no multiples -
Scout
Infiltrator
Berserker
Assault (No CRT)
Brawler

Force the least-used classes to be used and see how they hold up in a team environment.  fuzzy bunny like this would provide useful data for both ourselves and the devs on what needs to be worked on, and should be our focus for the time-being.

I'd be open to trying this out. Im already having fun trying to come up with weird combinations

[AsianJoyKiller]

NotKjell, on January 02 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

It should be noted that highlander is by no means the true "competetive" ruleset. It's fun though I'll admit. I would though like to use tournaments as test-beds for the next bit though. We've got a lot to learn and nothing to lose yet so let's keep experimenting with all kinds of rules and see what feels right. We could even do a highlander-esc tournament to see how class balance works out. Do a 4v4 or 5v5 with the restrictions of -

must field 3 different classes from this list at any time -
Rocketeer
Grenadier (rev-gl banned)
Bruiser
Sharpshooter
Cupcake

The remainder can be from here, though no multiples -
Scout
Infiltrator
Berserker
Assault (No CRT)
Brawler

Force the least-used classes to be used and see how they hold up in a team environment.  fuzzy bunny like this would provide useful data for both ourselves and the devs on what needs to be worked on, and should be our focus for the time-being.

The scientific testing side of me says "Yes. We must do this."

The fun-loving side of me says "!@%# me in the @#$ with a fork. This is gonna suck."

[Juodvarnis]

The only thing i learned that-

[ReachH]

You can ban certain dumb things that are gonna be changed soon, like EMP and REv-GL stunlock. But any class limitations kills creativity.

How do you know that a full-Rocketeer rush to the middle with Repair Charges and PD Turrets isn't the best opening MA strategy atm_ Or a 3:2 Brawler-Sharpshooter team isn't the best for clearing space_

You are only hurting your own teams if you only practice for these community made rulesets. The first official HAWKEN tournaments (if we even get that far) will likely be open tournaments, and the teams who have tried to break the game to its fullest will, all other things being equal, do much better.

Edited by ReachH, January 03 2013 - 03:10 AM.

[Houruck]

h0B0, on January 01 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

tournament servers should have all mechs/items/internals completely unlocked.

I think this is not implemented on the server side but in the accounts. And you can not edit your loadout from the ingame garage at the moment.

[Woobins]

ReachH, on January 03 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

You can ban certain dumb things that are gonna be changed soon, like EMP and REv-GL stunlock. But any class limitations kills creativity.

How do you know that a full-Rocketeer rush to the middle with Repair Charges and PD Turrets isn't the best opening MA strategy atm_ Or a 3:2 Brawler-Sharpshooter team isn't the best for clearing space_

You are only hurting your own teams if you only practice for these community made rulesets. The first official HAWKEN tournaments (if we even get that far) will likely be open tournaments, and the teams who have tried to break the game to its fullest will, all other things being equal, do much better.

Actually, aside from the purpose of SCIENCE, I would've thought the suggestions for class limitation modes could also be done to see what people would come up with the lesser used mech classes like Rocketeer, brawlers and sharpshooters, and I dont think the suggestion was meant to imply that this must absolutely be done from now onwards for every game, more that it could put an entertaining spin on some matches to push players out of their comfort zone to come up with new and interesting group strategies and individual tactics that otherwise may not be thought of if we continually b-lined to the more popular mechs.

..and correct me if i'm wrong, but I think a big part of the competitive scene is going to be how well people switch and adapt into different roles on demand depending on the situation and what the opposing team fields since theres no way of telling aside from a bit of prior research, educated hunches and first contact in the match, while restrictions might sound contrived at first, I think - like I mentioned before - it'll push people out of their comfort zones into said multi-skilled players. From the tourney it looked like quite a few people we're switching out now and again just to find the most comfortably-effective killing mech rather than any conscious decision of how should they support the team (although this may have been because of lack of communication in teams), so as balances and changes come in along with the new mech classes we may see more of a distinct pattern in how/why people choose their mechs in a given situation during a match.


-edit-

Juodvarnis, on January 03 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

The only thing i learned that-

..heartstrings... pulling..

;C

man im not gonna look at the Rocketeer the same way again it now even looks like its got a ball thing in its mouth and feels all alone.

Fuzzy bunny you.

Edited by Woobins, January 03 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Raygin]

The whole point of increasing the number of players per match and adding mech restrictions by class and type is to force teams to be more creative with their strategy.  Forcing specific mechs to be played for the sake of getting them out there isn't good, but if a team finds that they're good for a role, or rocketeers are buffed some reason or another, then they'll be used more often. That's the metagame. While making specific, underused mechs be in every team works for getting them out there, it cripples strategies that are not based with them in mind, and forces players to get good with the mech/buy internals in a short period of time, if there are no (Insert mech here) users, which might be the case in smaller clans.

I'd suggest giving 6v6 and highlander a try. I already have plans for what to do with it.

Edited by Raygin, January 03 2013 - 08:02 AM.

[D20Face]

I'm going to avoid commenting since I didn't participate.

But I do find a number of the conclusions funny.

[BuDeKai]

h0B0, on January 01 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Starting a topic for the community to share and discuss what they have learned from last fridays_________________________ tournament.

eat fuzzy bunny and die. THERE WAS NO TOURNY ON FRIDAY. THESE NUMBERS ARE A FARCE

[h0B0]

D20Face, on January 03 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

I'm going to avoid commenting since I didn't participate.

But I do find a number of the conclusions funny.

Please comment.

It is not a matter of if your participate or not.
The more ideas we get the better the outcome.
Some people might just have watched the stream but have a very good idea noone else has thought of.
Dont censor yourself.

Houruck, on January 03 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

h0B0, on January 01 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

tournament servers should have all mechs/items/internals completely unlocked.

I think this is not implemented on the server side but in the accounts. And you can not edit your loadout from the ingame garage at the moment.

I am aware of this.

Would you like me to edit this so it is more clear_

I think we get the point i am trying to convey. For tournaments participants need everything unlocked, otherwise people who have not unlocked everything yet or have not purchased X exclusive mech will be at a disadvantage or have their mechs banned simply because they are exclusive.

[h0B0]

BuDeKai, on January 03 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

h0B0, on January 01 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Starting a topic for the community to share and discuss what they have learned from last fridays_________________________ tournament.

eat fuzzy bunny and die. THERE WAS NO TOURNY ON FRIDAY. THESE NUMBERS ARE A FARCE

Stop trying to make me look bad.

It clearly says saturday.
;P

[DarkPulse]

To be dead honest, after our exit, I remember talking with c0mad0r about how rolling a Rockteteer may have been a good idea, considering the wall of SK we kept running into. Rockets would've forced some movement which otherwise was pretty much impossible. Unfortunately, I thought of that after the matches, not while we were getting mashed into the ground.

I do think the "restrictions" on class was rather BS and definitely needs to go. It was too complicated and ultimately pointless, as it just caused confusion, as opposed to letting players simply use their best mechs or react to the situation by picking different ones.

[Bigfoot]

I played in a fast paced mech game years ago (not named mech warrior) which utilized observers in tournaments.  I'll just say it's a tremendous advantage having an observer for all the reasons stated in this thread.  I'll take it one step further though; fullfilling the role of the observer at a high level is indeed a skill, and having somebody do it effectively can tilt the scales in a big way.

Keep in mind, having observers completely changes the dynamic of a match.  Without the 'eye in the sky', players must lean on their instincts.  Tactically speaking, you're relying more on your ability to calculate your opponents tendencies rather than having somebody tell you where they are.

I'm fine with either system.  I don't really have a dog in the fight since I really haven't committed to a clan/ tourney play just yet.  Just pointing out that matches with and without observers are 2 totally different animals and often yield different outcomes.

Sorry I missed out on at least watching this tourney.  Been out of town for much of the holiday season.

[Zeshi]

Bigfoot, on January 05 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

I played in a fast paced mech game years ago (not named mech warrior) which utilized observers in tournaments.  I'll just say it's a tremendous advantage having an observer for all the reasons stated in this thread.  I'll take it one step further though; fullfilling the role of the observer at a high level is indeed a skill, and having somebody do it effectively can tilt the scales in a big way.

Keep in mind, having observers completely changes the dynamic of a match.  Without the 'eye in the sky', players must lean on their instincts.  Tactically speaking, you're relying more on your ability to calculate your opponents tendencies rather than having somebody tell you where they are.

I'm fine with either system.  I don't really have a dog in the fight since I really haven't committed to a clan/ tourney play just yet.  Just pointing out that matches with and without observers are 2 totally different animals and often yield different outcomes.

Sorry I missed out on at least watching this tourney.  Been out of town for much of the holiday season.

Were not talking about competitive observers that call out enemy positions, were talking about allowing people to spectate the games and stream it to others.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Zeshi, on January 05 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Bigfoot, on January 05 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

I played in a fast paced mech game years ago (not named mech warrior) which utilized observers in tournaments.  I'll just say it's a tremendous advantage having an observer for all the reasons stated in this thread.  I'll take it one step further though; fullfilling the role of the observer at a high level is indeed a skill, and having somebody do it effectively can tilt the scales in a big way.

Keep in mind, having observers completely changes the dynamic of a match.  Without the 'eye in the sky', players must lean on their instincts.  Tactically speaking, you're relying more on your ability to calculate your opponents tendencies rather than having somebody tell you where they are.

I'm fine with either system.  I don't really have a dog in the fight since I really haven't committed to a clan/ tourney play just yet.  Just pointing out that matches with and without observers are 2 totally different animals and often yield different outcomes.

Sorry I missed out on at least watching this tourney.  Been out of town for much of the holiday season.

Were not talking about competitive observers that call out enemy positions, were talking about allowing people to spectate the games and stream it to others.

Not to mention streams are delayed, so everything people see there has already happened in the match, making relaying that information fairly useless in a fast paced game like Hawken.

[Akrium]

AsianJoyKiller, on January 05 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Zeshi, on January 05 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Bigfoot, on January 05 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

I played in a fast paced mech game years ago (not named mech warrior) which utilized observers in tournaments.  I'll just say it's a tremendous advantage having an observer for all the reasons stated in this thread.  I'll take it one step further though; fullfilling the role of the observer at a high level is indeed a skill, and having somebody do it effectively can tilt the scales in a big way.

Keep in mind, having observers completely changes the dynamic of a match.  Without the 'eye in the sky', players must lean on their instincts.  Tactically speaking, you're relying more on your ability to calculate your opponents tendencies rather than having somebody tell you where they are.

I'm fine with either system.  I don't really have a dog in the fight since I really haven't committed to a clan/ tourney play just yet.  Just pointing out that matches with and without observers are 2 totally different animals and often yield different outcomes.

Sorry I missed out on at least watching this tourney.  Been out of town for much of the holiday season.

Were not talking about competitive observers that call out enemy positions, were talking about allowing people to spectate the games and stream it to others.

Not to mention streams are delayed, so everything people see there has already happened in the match, making relaying that information fairly useless in a fast paced game like Hawken.

This delay even existed within the tourny pod cast. And it was a good 5 seconds of a delay. A LOT can change in 5 seconds... ghosting wouldn't be an issue.

[Bigfoot]

Zeshi, on January 05 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Bigfoot, on January 05 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

I played in a fast paced mech game years ago (not named mech warrior) which utilized observers in tournaments.  I'll just say it's a tremendous advantage having an observer for all the reasons stated in this thread.  I'll take it one step further though; fullfilling the role of the observer at a high level is indeed a skill, and having somebody do it effectively can tilt the scales in a big way.

Keep in mind, having observers completely changes the dynamic of a match.  Without the 'eye in the sky', players must lean on their instincts.  Tactically speaking, you're relying more on your ability to calculate your opponents tendencies rather than having somebody tell you where they are.

I'm fine with either system.  I don't really have a dog in the fight since I really haven't committed to a clan/ tourney play just yet.  Just pointing out that matches with and without observers are 2 totally different animals and often yield different outcomes.

Sorry I missed out on at least watching this tourney.  Been out of town for much of the holiday season.

Were not talking about competitive observers that call out enemy positions, were talking about allowing people to spectate the games and stream it to others.

Oohhhhhh...    *blush*    

Misunderstood.   Mah bad.