93 replies to this topic

[RentAKnight]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 13 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Hey RentaKnight, guess what_
Twitch aiming is not the only kind of aiming. People who are better at tracking and leading are going to have an easy time overcoming the turn rate cap.

And did you just imply that Hawken hitscan weapons require precision_

No, all I am saying is that you have to acknowledge that the limitations of aiming in Hawken give favor to weapons that do not require precise and careful aiming before firing.  In other words, weapons that still do damage when you miss are favored.  A good player cannot compensate for this favoring by "top tier gamer play."

Edited by RentAKnight, March 13 2013 - 01:10 PM.

[l3rokenwing]

While hawken will never see the kind of twitch shooting demonstrated in your video, it also doesn't have the agility or movement speed to require it. When you talk about top tier players in hawken you have to assume that with proper use of the radar, good positioning and a proper understanding of their weapons, the best of the best will hit every time. While the impeded control on your mouse exists, until you are basically physically touching another A class darting around you that limit isn't really stopping you from landing those shots. While it takes skill to track and aim with the current mouse limitations, it takes vastly more skill to move consistently in a way to challenge a good shooter's aim.

Oh, and I should mention I would totally use Uservoice and believe a system like that is invaluable for devs to get a clear picture for what matters are important to the players. Sadly I don't agree with any of the current topics....

While I agree with OP's initial post, it's because front loaded damage needs to be reduced. The value I see in this game comes from the need to land your hits while piloting efficiently and making sure you negate as much damage as possible. It's an interesting change for me because I never liked fps' where I felt the player was too tanky... While I agree that 'longer' engagements are the heart of the game, I wouldn't want to see TTK rise too much because I feel that you can have excellent fights with people at the current damage levels that last long enough. If good players drag out engagements because the physical limit of how fast they could kill eachother it makes it harder to manage groups and your positioning in deathmatch, or overcome individuals in team fights. If you're stuck in a battle for a longer period it makes it more about the number of players engaged and less about individual skill.

Also I'm shocked so many people have voted for more focus on the aerial combat. I wasn't a part of the closed beta, was there really more validity to engaging from the air_ (sorry this is off topic)

Edited by l3rokenwing, March 13 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[RentAKnight]

l3rokenwing, on March 13 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

While the impeded control on your mouse exists, until you are basically physically touching another A class darting around you that limit isn't really stopping you from landing those shots. While it takes skill to track and aim with the current mouse limitations, it takes vastly more skill to move consistently in a way to challenge a good shooter's aim.

This sounds exactly what happens when a raider rushes another mech.  This is the sort of challenge I am saying limits a raiders ability to use the corsair MIRV effectively.  Aiming limitations in Hawken make it much easier to shoot a TOW at the ground near an enemy than it is to aim a weapon that needs LOS and for your crosshair to be over the enemey.  This is the same reason the heat was OP pre patch (aside from stun locking).  It was just too forgiving, you didn't have to take the extra time to aim it the way you do with hitscan weapons (read sabot, corsiar).

Hawken's aiming limitations favor weapons that can miss and still do damage.  This is what has the EOC looking overpowered after the patch.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 13 2013 - 01:52 PM.

[l3rokenwing]

If the secondary weapons reload/recharge times were shorter I would agree with you more. But considering the reload times, accurate players will always be able to pick out that moment that they have the crosshairs lined up properly and will be able to engineer another shot when it's ready again. Just because something is more user friendly doesn't make it balanced. The fact that the mirv does more damage than the tow  is important. Players should be rewarded for using the weapons that require more accuracy and consistency but the margin has to be evaluated. At this point placing the mirv damage 60 points higher than the tow may not be a good balance if you're justification is 'they're more likely to miss'

[RentAKnight]

l3rokenwing, on March 13 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

I wouldn't want to see TTK rise too much because I feel that you can have excellent fights with people at the current damage levels that last long enough. If good players drag out engagements because the physical limit of how fast they could kill eachother it makes it harder to manage groups and your positioning in deathmatch, or overcome individuals in team fights. If you're stuck in a battle for a longer period it makes it more about the number of players engaged and less about individual skill.

This is my biggest concern with Hawken right now.  Because of the high TTK and the lack of skill shot high damage weapons, there are very few ways to outplay your opponents.  It is quite difficult right now to come out of a 1v2 the victor if all pilots are equal.

I'm still looking for some mechanic that will allow one pilot to seperate himself out from the rest via developed skill.  Because of the cursor limitations I don't think aiming will ever be it.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 13 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[l3rokenwing]

Well if it's a 2v1 and all pilots are equal you shouldn't be winning.

But I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. I agree that you need burst weapons vs. sustain damage weapons for differences of play style. I don't think however that if you're in an open field the burst damage user should still have the DPS advantage relying on his inability to hit to marginalize the difference.

the skill that separates good players from the pack is situation awareness, positioning and proper use of cover. In a game that has so many direct line of sight weapons, the person that masters damaging their enemies without direct LOS or can use their burst weapons most efficiently to reduce the time their vulnerable should win the day. But he needs to place himself properly and use the map to do it. Getting caught in the open should be the worst case scenario for someone using burst damage weapons.

Edited by l3rokenwing, March 13 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[v009]

l3rokenwing, on March 13 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

If the secondary weapons reload/recharge times were shorter I would agree with you more. But considering the reload times, accurate players will always be able to pick out that moment that they have the crosshairs lined up properly and will be able to engineer another shot when it's ready again. Just because something is more user friendly doesn't make it balanced. The fact that the mirv does more damage than the tow  is important. Players should be rewarded for using the weapons that require more accuracy and consistency but the margin has to be evaluated. At this point placing the mirv damage 60 points higher than the tow may not be a good balance if you're justification is 'they're more likely to miss'

The MIRV can do 55 more damage than the TOW. Yes but you only have one projectile with the TOW and manual detonation. You need to hit all MIRV shot to do full damage.

[AsianJoyKiller]

v009, on March 13 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

l3rokenwing, on March 13 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

If the secondary weapons reload/recharge times were shorter I would agree with you more. But considering the reload times, accurate players will always be able to pick out that moment that they have the crosshairs lined up properly and will be able to engineer another shot when it's ready again. Just because something is more user friendly doesn't make it balanced. The fact that the mirv does more damage than the tow  is important. Players should be rewarded for using the weapons that require more accuracy and consistency but the margin has to be evaluated. At this point placing the mirv damage 60 points higher than the tow may not be a good balance if you're justification is 'they're more likely to miss'

The MIRV can do 55 more damage than the TOW. Yes but you only have one projectile with the TOW and manual detonation. You need to hit all MIRV shot to do full damage.

Hitting for 185+ damage with the MIRV isn't particularly hard to do unless you're trying to use it outside it's optimal range.
Using the MIRV at the 90 meter limit is like trying to use TOW at long range. Possible, but not particularly effective or easy to do. You should only being doing that sort of thing if you're trying to finish someone off, otherwise you should be switching over to the GL mode.

[l3rokenwing]

So what are you arguing for_ that the extra 55 damage is validated by the inability to score partial damage with less precision (effectively)_ As I said, I agree that you should be rewarded for that precision but so does the OP (at least judging by where he placed the proposed EOC damage). It's just a matter of HOW much.

Currently the leeway for missed shots on the burst damage weapons is a little too high. It makes the utility of being able to pop around corners and outdamage sustain damage weapons too good while also being able to push them down in sustained encounters.

[Akrium]

RentAKnight, on March 13 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

So I thought I'd look at another DM game that has decent TTK and a variety of weapons and weapon types, Quake 3 (quakelive).  I am very familiar with how each weapon performs, when it's used, and in which situation each weapon is stronger:


+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
¦ Weapon ¦ No. ¦ Abr. ¦  Dmg   ¦ DPS    ¦ Reload(ms) ¦
+-----------------------+-----+------+--------+------------------------¦
¦ Gauntlet   ¦  1  ¦  G   ¦   50   ¦ 400    ¦ 400 ¦
¦ Machine Gun    ¦  2  ¦ MG   ¦ 5   ¦  50    ¦ 100 ¦
¦ Shotgun    ¦  3  ¦ SG   ¦  100   ¦ 100    ¦ 1000 ¦
¦ Grenade Launcher   ¦  4  ¦ GL   ¦  100   ¦ 125    ¦ 800 ¦
¦ Rocket Launcher    ¦  5  ¦ RL   ¦  100*  ¦ 125    ¦ 800 ¦
¦ Lightning Gun ¦  6  ¦ LG   ¦ 7-7-7**¦ 140    ¦   50 ¦
¦ Rail gun   ¦  7  ¦ RG   ¦   80   ¦  53    ¦ 1500 ¦
¦ Plasma Gun ¦  8  ¦ PG   ¦   20   ¦ 200    ¦ 100 ¦
¦ BFG    ¦  9  ¦ BFG  ¦ ¦    ¦ 200 ¦
¦ Grapple    ¦ 10  ¦   ¦ ¦    ¦ ¦
¦ Nail Gun   ¦ 11  ¦ NG   ¦  100   ¦    ¦ ¦
¦ Proximity Mines    ¦ 12  ¦ PG   ¦  100   ¦    ¦ ¦
¦ Chain Gun ¦ 13  ¦ CG   ¦ ¦ 80-160*** ¦ ¦
+-----------------------+-----+------+--------+-----------+------------+

dmg=max damage per round (SSG has 11 damage per pellet in each round)
dps=damage per second if it with 100% accuracy
*RL max 42 on self splash (non direct/full on hit), max 84 on other players
**LG damage is 3 numbers as the shaft is in 3 sections, close-mid-long range
***(80 during 1sec of spinup, 160 at full speed, assuming all bullets hit)


Interesting things to note, especially if you are familiar with the weapons.  Keep in mind player health starting is 100 and you can acquire up to 200 armor for effective HP of 300.

The lightning gun has a max range close to 90m and is a consistant fire weapon like the AR, 50ms reload time.  Even though the plasma gun has a higher DPS, the lighting gun is preferred EVERY TIME because it is easier to aim ( the plasma gun is projectile based, like the EOC).  The Plasma gun is balanced in Quake because of it's difficulty to aim consistently.  Quake is a tried and true proven game that players have competed in for millions of dollars.

The rail gun and the shotgun are the only real burst damage weapons.  The shotgun has a huge spread and only hits for 100 at very close ranges.  The rail gun in original q3 used to hit for 100 but it was lowered in live to 80 because it is pin point accurate at all ranges, considered OP.   The rail gun is balanced by a very long CD so it is very unforgiving if you miss.

The rocket launcher does 84 max on splash so when you miss you don't hit for 100, but still hit.

I am not going to argue that to some people the hawken experience seems slugish in terms of speed and mouse control. But that doesn't mean you cannot set yourself up for the fight and position yourself, not just your location but also where you are aiming. This is where the skill in hawken will sit. Can you always keep yourself set up for those oh fuzzy bunny situations and be ready. How you turn your mech and your mouse in combination with each other is huge. Playing off that defensively is also huge.

I don't expect to see twitch gamers picking up hawken professionally. But I do still see people picking it up. Just because quake players won't doesn't mean others won't. Quake and Hawken are very much different even though it reminds me a lot of it.


Lets go up and look at those damages that quake offers. Yes the lightning gun is favorable because it's accuracy is pin point and people can aim that way. But you cannot compare the EOC to the plasma gun... the plasma gun doesn't take off almost half the health of someone instantly.

If anything the EOC is the Rocket Launcher.

I understand you want a skill gun that will truly burst crazy damage. But I don't want to see people only using EOC mechs end game because it is the only good gun to use because of the burst it does.

As in quake you always try to go for the RL if you can. If not.. lightning gun. After that, plasma.. so on so forth.

But this game has set mechs with set weapons. Not a free for all where everyone has a chance at one weapon. This type of situation will cause people to play only a few types of mechs because they are the ones rolling with the EOC. People WILL get good enough to land the shots consistently. If people can keep the lightning gun on another player in quake they can keep the eoc lined up to land all the pucks in Hawken. The mouse cap isn't slow enough to stop that. The combination of the slow mouse speed is offset by the fact that our mechs are stupidly slow, save one new one only when his ability is up.

Twitch aiming is not needed for hawken. This has been a conscious design from the start. They would not be trying to make Hawken Oculus Rift ready if it was going to be a twitch game. I can't imagine the neck pains people would have.

Also on landing the mirv.. it's really isn't that hard. I did have to pay more attention to how I was moving into a fight but once I figured that out and the timing in general I've had a rather easy time landing it. Anything 60+ meters out I am switching to the slug because it will land more damage consistently. I'm not saying I don't miss. It is only slightly harder than the tow because the tow has splash. But that is about it.

The EOC simply should not be doing the 210 burst damage right now. I am not saying a primary gun cannot do a burst of 210 damage. What I am saying is that because the EOC is paired up with secondaries that do high burst as well, that the gun simply needs to be toned down so the over all burst is taken care of.

EOC + Det + :
GL = dead A class instantly
ToW = dead A class instantly
HFM = dead A class instantly
KLA = dead A class instantly

Why change all the secondaries when you can change 1 primary and 2 items. A class mechs can gain 15 armor more than the GL version to stop from being instant gibbed. And they have to go FULL tank to do it. That is utter bs.

Quake has no way to combine damage all at once. It cannot do a RL and GL combo at the same time. Hawken can... this is why it does not work in hawken but it can in Quake.

Also the reason you cannot do 2v1s in this game even if you are better than the other two is because our hitboxes are so damn huge that missing is hard. You are constantly taking dmg. I don't mind how hard it is to 2v1 people. It makes it all that more great when you do pull it off. The skill in surviving that is in positioning and aiming. Not just aiming.

[RentAKnight]

Akrium, on March 13 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

Post

Plasma does 20 dmg per shot and fires every 100 ms.  It can kill someone in 5 shots, 500 ms.  Landing 5 shots is difficult unless the guy is standing still.  How is it not like the EOC_

"If people can keep the lightning gun on another player in quake they can keep the eoc lined up to land all the pucks in Hawken."
The lightning gun is instant hitscan.  People can't land all of their plasma shots in quake, it's impossible, much like it is to land all of the EOC pucks in Hawken... And quake doesn't even have Hawken's aiming limitations.

Take the EOC off the raider, problem solved_  EOC is still really hard to hit with.  All of the imbalanced EOC damage post patch is coming from the mines.

You said landing the MIRV is harder than the TOW, if only slightly.  That's one of my points for how the MIRV is balanced.  Hawken favors guns you can afford to miss with.  To balance the MIRV, either increase the heat, increase the cool down, increase the spread to where it only hits for full at 10m, or decrease its max range to 50m.  The MIRVs damage does not need to be nerfed.

Hawken needs some variety and some more skilled weapons.  Individual gameplay is really bland.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 13 2013 - 09:00 PM.

[RentAKnight]

Akrium, on March 13 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

Quake has no way to combine damage all at once. It cannot do a RL and GL combo at the same time. Hawken can... this is why it does not work in hawken but it can in Quake.

In quake you could bounc players in the air using RL and then combo them when they had no control over where they were going.  But you are right the only way to dilever any sort of alpha was to shoot a rocket from a distance then switch to rail and shoot that as the rocket landed for 200 total dmg.  This is an effective combo and was a difficult thing to pull off but advanced players pull it off regularly.

Nothing like combos are possible in Hawken.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 13 2013 - 09:20 PM.

[l3rokenwing]

RentAKnight, on March 13 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Hawken needs some variety and some more skilled weapons.  Individual gameplay is really bland.

Knight, while technically you're arguing to keep things as they are, I feel like you're doing it from the standpoint of making hawken into something it's not. No one can claim to know the dev's ultimate vision for what hawken should be as a shooter but in reading your posts I feel like you're missing a key aspect. This is an FPS game but the theme and mechanics of it is mechs. The only reason I say this is because so much of this game's variety comes from piloting your class. While all the A's, B's, and C's technically handle the same (stock), their weapon loadouts dictate very different approaches to situations. How you approach, enter, and engage enemies is very different from mech to mech. Most of them are using the same weapons but different combinations of them obviously so weapon handling and what you're doing with the mouse in your hand alone clearly isn't the focus the developers are pushing for (at least as their product would indicate thus far)

Considering that Hawken clearly focuses very much on your piloting ability, situational awareness, and gaining incremental advantage over your opponents in order to get your kill and be as healthy as possible for the next oncomer, I don't see how you can believe introducing more 'power' weapons into the game is a good choice. In arena games like quake the scramble to get the more 'interesting' weapons is a large part of player skill. When everyone loads out with them you can't justify giving one class the ability to bowl over another even if it's hard to do so.

It's also crazy to me that you're asserting that people won't land all the eoc damage. There are two instances where your mech physically cannot move: after a side dodge and when you land from a jump. They're brief, and the side dodge can be followed by a forward dash, but that kind of predictability is exactly how an EOC user will get the most out of their weapon. Hell, that's what I do with the darn thing. I just wait till someone has dashed or jumped (or starts bunny hopping like an fuzzy bunny) and just rail them with that insane burst of damage. It's really hard to land every puck of the EOC on someone dancing around you, but there are predictable starts and stops to that movement. It's really not that hard to hit someone with a full blast of the EOC while they're approaching you. There are a lot of corridors designed into many of the levels and even in the open field having a weapon that offers so much potential damage that a front line fighter just CANT afford to take a hit from it in order to close the distance forcing them to juke their way slowly to a back peddling or kiting opponent is ridiculous.  

RentAKnight, on March 13 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Nothing like combos are possible in Hawken.

What_

We're physically carrying two weapons. We have items that do significant damage that we can employ simultaneously. You catch an A or B class mech unaware and they're just dead...


EDIT: I'm sorry, in re reading your post i see you meant that there is no forced movement in hawken. No way to hit an opponent and guarantee you'll know where they'll be because of it. That is certainly true.
But isn't just walking up to someone engaged in something else or unaware of you and unloading over 500 damage in one burst worse_

Edited by l3rokenwing, March 13 2013 - 11:16 PM.

[Akrium]

Also understand that in quake you have much more mobility in speed AND jumping. Thus the guns need to kill faster. Because landing hits is much harder, not due to aiming them.. but because of the other person moving much quicker and dodging much faster. That is what keeps those crazy guns in check.

Hawken doesn't have much in the way of speed. And the mouse turning isn't a big enough handicap to stop people from taking advantage of it. Making a gun take "skill" is going to be next to impossible for this game because of it's speed and hitbox sizes.

Now again, I don't mind a mech having a shot that does over 200 damage in 1 hit. But it's other fire needs to be a fast firing gun that does little damage per hit. Why you ask_ You get the raider otherwise, which can front load 450 damage from his weapons alone every 3.75 seconds. Yes this is unique.. but this is far from skilled or balanced well for the game currently. If we had no offensive items than I would probably be much more ok with this idea. But we don't, we have offensive items that can spike it even worse. And that is another problem. You need to add 175 damage to all the weapons in the game simply because we have items we can combo with everything we have. Quake again, does not have this aspect. You can only fire 1 weapon at any 1 time.

Instant gibs on someone is NOT FUN for the receiving player. And as it stands it doesn't take much skill to pull off as people will just do it point blank to make sure they don't miss. And if the majority of the damage lands than it is almost a guaranteed kill because escaping or dodging enough of the damage to live is not really there for Hawken. Such as why you are sad that we cannot 2v1 well. The game simply is too easy to land shots. Once you are behind, you are really behind. Thus burst weapons are sought after for this reason.

You like the idea of burst weapons. And that is totally fine to me as well. But they have to be in check with other weapons that doesn't turn their burst into something too high. And the EOC is a primary of too many mechs that have high burst secondaries as well. This is what is making the EOC broken.

Just to give you an example of what I mean. I wouldn't mind the medic mech to get a high burst dmg primary. As his secondary is similar to that of the lightning gun from what I remember seeing. Thus it is a constant dps weapon and NOT a burst dps weapon. So it helps keep everything in line and the burst in check.

Also like I stated before, not everyone can run weapon "X" if they want to. This causes another issue. Not every mech can do the same burst. In Quake EVERYONE has an equal chance to do the same thing because everyone can get every item. That simply is not the case in Hawken. So it lends itself to people only playing minimal amount of mechs because they only want the one that has "X" weapon on it. This was the HEAT gun.. it is turning into the EOC now. This also is not good for the balance of the game or the diversity that the game should offer.

summary
The EOC is too good with the other weapon combinations it is paired up with. It needs balanced to bring the over all burst in line with other options in the game. Even at 150 damage, it would still be the highest burst primary gun in the game, which is fitting for the skill required to use it.

[Agile]

Dont blame the EOC for too high total burst damage, on the infiltrator and rocketeer the EOC works just fine. It needs to have
High burst because rarely you get a full direct hit. Most difficult weapon also needs a proper reward.

Too high burst damage only occurs with SS and Raider, mess with the unique things of these mechs and leave the shared stuff with other mechs alone. Not everybody is pilotting a SS or Raider!

Cheers, EOC infil pilot...

Edited by Agile, March 14 2013 - 04:26 AM.

[RentAKnight]

Akrium, on March 14 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

You like the idea of burst weapons. And that is totally fine to me as well. But they have to be in check with other weapons that doesn't turn their burst into something too high. And the EOC is a primary of too many mechs that have high burst secondaries as well. This is what is making the EOC broken.

Just to give you an example of what I mean. I wouldn't mind the medic mech to get a high burst dmg primary. As his secondary is similar to that of the lightning gun from what I remember seeing. Thus it is a constant dps weapon and NOT a burst dps weapon. So it helps keep everything in line and the burst in check.

Here you are arguing that the EOC is OP because it is on the raider.  Later you say the EOC is OP in isolation compared to the other primaries.   Which is it_  Having the same weapon on multiple mechs has been discussed as an obvious issue.  I'd rather come up with a better solution than nerfing all the weapons so that every weapon is the same.

Was the EOC OP, pre patch_  Why or why not_  I say NO.  What's changed_  It was made more forgiving by increasing mine det radius and giving more damage to the mines vs the impact.

Ask any veteren if they consider the EOC "reliable" damage prepatch and you are going to get a resounding "NO."  How can you even compare its IMPACT (240 with 6 pucks) dps to the AR and make a reasonable conclusion.

Again I look to the Quakes plasma gun which has 2x more DPS than any other weapon in quake.  Tell me why it is balanced, and why it wasn't nerfed in quake live, while the rail gun was.  The EOC was not reliable pre-patch, it's projectiles still aren't.  It's mines are what are forgiving now, the gun is still impossible to hit all 6 pucks with.  Nerf the mine damage or lower their detonation radius, but leave the direct hit damage alone.

l3rokenwing, on March 13 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

RentAKnight, on March 13 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Hawken needs some variety and some more skilled weapons.  Individual gameplay is really bland.

Knight, while technically you're arguing to keep things as they are, I feel like you're doing it from the standpoint of making hawken into something it's not. No one can claim to know the dev's ultimate vision for what hawken should be as a shooter but in reading your posts I feel like you're missing a key aspect. This is an FPS game but the theme and mechanics of it is mechs. The only reason I say this is because so much of this game's variety comes from piloting your class. While all the A's, B's, and C's technically handle the same (stock), their weapon loadouts dictate very different approaches to situations. How you approach, enter, and engage enemies is very different from mech to mech. Most of them are using the same weapons but different combinations of them obviously so weapon handling and what you're doing with the mouse in your hand alone clearly isn't the focus the developers are pushing for (at least as their product would indicate thus far)

Considering that Hawken clearly focuses very much on your piloting ability, situational awareness, and gaining incremental advantage over your opponents in order to get your kill and be as healthy as possible for the next oncomer, I don't see how you can believe introducing more 'power' weapons into the game is a good choice. In arena games like quake the scramble to get the more 'interesting' weapons is a large part of player skill. When everyone loads out with them you can't justify giving one class the ability to bowl over another even if it's hard to do so.

TFC, TF2 or any other game that has classes with specific weapon types fits your description here.  Just because the game is mech themed doesn't mean it is confined to be bland, slow, unskillful, and lack variety.  The mech skins and graphics are all cosmetic, they do not directly influence gameplay.  The core gameplay can be whatever the dev's vision is.  It is a "mech fps" not a mech simulator.  Ultimately it's up to the devs to decide how they want their game to play.  

IMO the hitscan LOS burst weapons with long cool downs add a variety of high risk / reward that is very different from the other fast firing hitscan weapons or slow firing, very forgiving projectile weapons. Leave high damage weapons in the game, figure out a practical SKILL BASED mechanic to make them balanced.

I havn't seen any creativity in offering solutions.  All I ever see on this forum is "LOWER ALL THE DAMAGE!!"

List of things you can do to make HIGH damage burst weapons balanced:

• Longer cool down.
  
  
• More heat.
  
  
• Less viable at longer or shorter ranges.

• Weapon harder to aim at close range (all hitscan weapons)
  
• Weapon damage variable with range.
  
• Weapon damage has a max range.  (MIRV, find balance via the correct max range)
  
• Have a linear drastic spread with range (vulcan, smc, AR).
  
• Decrease the projectile speed (compare MIRV, EOC, heat, TOW, GL, HFM)
  
• Add/Increase firing delay.

Lets get creative.  Think of how other games balance seemingly OP weapons.  Shock rifle combo from UT did ridiculous damage but you had to shoot the ORB with the primary (this was not easy). Melee weapons in most DM games are 1-3 hit kills but you have to touch your opponent (is considered balanced).


Hawken is in need of more skill weapons.

Edited by RentAKnight, March 14 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

RentAKnight, on March 14 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

The EOC was not reliable pre-patch, it's projectiles still aren't.  It's mines are what are forgiving now, the gun is still impossible to hit all 6 pucks with

Not reliable_ You need to practice more with it.
Just because you can't do, doesn't make it impossible.

[Sylhiri]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 14 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Not reliable_ You need to practice more with it.
Just because you can't do, doesn't make it impossible.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 12 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

There are true professionals who could take the old EOC and have dominated with it.

Evidence please. I would like to see a top tier player hit all pucks at least 90% of the time on opponents of equal skill level.

[Conquistador]

Sylhiri, on March 14 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on March 14 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Not reliable_ You need to practice more with it.
Just because you can't do, doesn't make it impossible.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 12 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

There are true professionals who could take the old EOC and have dominated with it.

Evidence please. I would like to see a top tier player hit all pucks at least 90% of the time on opponents of equal skill level.

I'm afraid I'm with Sylhiri on this one. The standard 3 puck burst is much more reliable than trying to factor your momentum, the timing of the pucks, the speed of the pucks, your enemy's initial momentum at the moment of fire, and any further changes to your momentum or your enemy's momentum during the span of 6-burst.

There are currently too many factors applied to the EOC six puck spread, which is why I actually kinda like Beemann's 3 burst idea where he reduces the max number of pucks to 3 ( and we can even tie it to the weapon animation by having each "super puck" combine two cartridges to fire one puck). This solution, by definition, would also make minefields smaller and reduce the area denial capabilities of the weapon. Which is a neat solution to the stupidly easy-to-lay minefield.

Edited by Conquistador, March 14 2013 - 08:43 AM.