93 replies to this topic

[Sylhiri]

RedVan, on March 15 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

Before trying to balance burst vs sustained, we should get movement speed increased some, as it will have effect on burst more than sustained.  We all know movement, even with max movement optimization, is pretty dam slow.

Well it WAS fine until they nerf the speed....

[deusex2]

MIRV damage is fine, it's possible to reduce effective range to 70m or increase the spread, though.

EOC has no business being in Raider's possession, imho it needs to stay Inf/Rocketeer exclusives only. Or even better-Rocketeer only. It's charge-up time can use some nerfing, while minelaying capacity can be increased by adding few more seconds before charges self-detonate.

HE Charge is harder to use then Detonator, but I agree it's damage needs to go down a bit(20-25% I think), whereas it's blast radius should be slightly increased.

Detonator, however is EZ mode compared to HE Charge and has no reason to cause the same damage as HE Charge. If you ask me it should do 40% less damage, but the devs have to fix the darn thing not detonating!

[RedVan]

deusex2, on March 15 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

EOC has no business being in Raider's possession, imho it needs to stay Inf/Rocketeer exclusives only. Or even better-Rocketeer only. It's charge-up time can use some nerfing, while minelaying capacity can be increased by adding few more seconds before charges self-detonate.

EOC was fine pre patch.  Dont know why they changed it.  The problem it was having was just that all other splash weapons were more powerful

[ShadowWarg]

RedVan, on March 15 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

deusex2, on March 15 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

EOC has no business being in Raider's possession, imho it needs to stay Inf/Rocketeer exclusives only. Or even better-Rocketeer only. It's charge-up time can use some nerfing, while minelaying capacity can be increased by adding few more seconds before charges self-detonate.

EOC was fine pre patch.  Dont know why they changed it.  The problem it was having was just that all other splash weapons were more powerful

EOC is basically the same as pre patch. The total damage is the same, they just change the direct hit damage and mine damage

Before Direct = 10 + Mines = 25 = total 210
After Direct = 5 + Mines = 30 = total 210

Its just that they didn't lower the total Damage delivered to compensate for the the reduced radius for explosive splash damage.

I guess you could say the EOC was always strong, it was just over shadowed buy the HEAT. But now that the HEAT has been brought in line, the EOC stands out more and currently has the OP spotlight shining on it.

VVV And what the guy below (Rei) said VVV

Edited by ShadowWarg, March 15 2013 - 06:48 PM.

[Rei]

RedVan, on March 15 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

deusex2, on March 15 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

EOC has no business being in Raider's possession, imho it needs to stay Inf/Rocketeer exclusives only. Or even better-Rocketeer only. It's charge-up time can use some nerfing, while minelaying capacity can be increased by adding few more seconds before charges self-detonate.

EOC was fine pre patch.  Dont know why they changed it.  The problem it was having was just that all other splash weapons were more powerful

EOC didn't work as a mine layer pre-patch. It wasn't fine.

[RedVan]

The whole mine laying thing difference is exactly what makes them stronger now. It's far easier to just lay mines down than go for direct hits.

Before:  more reward for direct hits (harder)
Now: more reward for mines (easier)

That's backwards.

IMO, fire and forget mines should not be as strong as they are currently, that's why I liked it pre patch. Now you have everyone and their mom laying mines everywhere and poof, there goes a chunk of your HP just because you got close to them. Before, you had people that took time to get good with EOC that could do good damage with it, but you actually had to get good with it.

Edited by RedVan, March 16 2013 - 07:24 PM.

[Sylhiri]

RedVan, on March 16 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

The whole mine laying thing difference is exactly what makes them stronger now. It's far easier to just lay mines down than go for direct hits.

Before:  more reward for direct hits (harder)
Now: more reward for mines (easier)

That's backwards.

I keep saying this but...

[ShatteredSteel]

RedVan, on March 16 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

The whole mine laying thing difference is exactly what makes them stronger now. It's far easier to just lay mines down than go for direct hits.

Before:  more reward for direct hits (harder)
Now: more reward for mines (easier)

That's backwards.

IMO, fire and forget mines should not be as strong as they are currently, that's why I liked it pre patch. Now you have everyone and their mom laying mines everywhere and poof, there goes a chunk of your HP just because you got close to them. Before, you had people that took time to get good with EOC that could do good damage with it, but you actually had to get good with it.

Redvan nailed it here, I find mines a great mechanism to force turning maneuvers on enemies or cutting off retreat paths in active combat. But it is irritating when multiple EOC's are used to lace an area with mines and your punished for anything but falling back from foes that you don't even get into LOS with.

However, given increased losses against assaulting an occupied position the game needed something to provide the extra assault strength required to make holding stationary objectives, with minimal ingress points, a challenge. I think that is really the missing role the Raider was intended to fill (par to  brawler) as a spearhead mech. I think there-in lies the trouble with using the EOC being on so may rigs with different roles to fill. I would expect this to change as more weapons/rigs are developed we will probably see the weapon combinations diversify making this current problem a bit of a null point.

[ShadowWarg]

Sylhiri, on March 16 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

RedVan, on March 16 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

The whole mine laying thing difference is exactly what makes them stronger now. It's far easier to just lay mines down than go for direct hits.

Before:  more reward for direct hits (harder)
Now: more reward for mines (easier)

That's backwards.

I keep saying this but...

I think that is subject to opinion.

Its not really fire and forget because of the timer on the mines. Now if the mines where permanent or had a long life span then I could agree with you. I like using the EOC as a tactical weapon and don't think the EOC should be just another direct combat weapon like all the other weapons in the game. (and yes they all are excluding one or two)

There should be more indirect tactical weapons. (this is off topic)

But like I said: subject to opinion.

Edited by ShadowWarg, March 17 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[Garx]

whether to reduce the damage of EOC also reduce the heat generated to balance

[Aptest]

Some of you guys talk about high damage per shot, low rate of fire weapons as "high risk, high reward" weapons, and say that you lose out if you miss. I feel it is the other way around - the risk in using the SMC, the AR and especially the vulcan is higher.

With a constantly hitting weapon, you need to have your target centered for the duration of your shot. Even a partial miss will reduce your DPS considerably  This is a risk because while firing your movement is restricted. Side dashing can only be done perpendicular to your line of fire and forward dashes stop your DPS completely for their duration. Additionally, you are exposed to return fire for the entire duration of your shot.

With weapons like the flak gun, on the other hand, you have a cool down between shots. In that cool down, you can use your movement just to be safe. You can have an obstacle between yourself and your opponent while your primary cannot fire. You can dash foreward with minimal loss of DPS and perform complex dash sequences that allow you to better juke detonators and tows.

The flak, when used properly, is a lower risk weapon than the SMC simply because when using the SMC you need to have a constant LOS with your target, whereas when using the flak you only need LOS intermittently.

[FussyBadger]

I'd rather see an alternate version of the EOC for A and B class mechs than nerfing it. It's my Primary with the Rocketeer and doesn't feel too powerful there. I'm not super-mobile. I'm a huge target. The damage i can do feels about right - punishing as heck for a sitting duck, but largely avoidable 1v1. I can see how it's devastating with lighter classes. That can blitz and run far more effectively.

Then again, I only played two hours this week, so maybe I just suck. That's a definite possibility.

[Analysis]

Why are people so fixated on making the game slower paced. I feel I'm witnessing the death of the game I love. The next patch is bringing a healer mech and people want a damage nerf...

[FakeName]

Because the EOC is a hot topic in this thread and how Akrium said, it WILL piss some people off I want to add my post too, even if the last post was over a month ago.

However I am new to the EOC but I noticed fast it great burst damage BUT in a fight with moving mechs it's quite difficult to hit all 6 mines .. + the EOC needs to be loaded. I prefare the 3 mines shot in this kind of fight as I have more chances to hit (I think). I play a level 25 Inflitrator by the way.
However I don't think the EOC should be nerfed (again) .. If I remember corrctly it was nerfed some time ago already.

EOC is a mine-layer:
I would hardly aggree with that.
Imagine how useless the EOC would be (if direct hits do the same/less dmg than a mine on the ground). The mines will only explode if a mech is walking over it or after some seconds.
If you want the EOC be a mine-layer I suggest this:
- mines explode if another explosion (like the GL or TOW) is made nearby.

So it would be possible to make the mines explode whenever YOU want it (or the enemy).

However to avoid the EOC mine damage just fly over them as the explosive range is not very high (actually it is but the hard steel of the mech is hard enought to avoid hard damage ). However, in the air you are less mobile, you can easly be hit directly by the EOC wich solves the problem more or less.

Another thing:
The EOC is in my opinion not just for fun the prestige weapon for the inflitrator. The EOC fits perfectly in the 'hit-and-run' tactic and beats every enemy mech wich is build to stay long in fights some like the assult or the recruit but beating an A class with the EOC is hard because of it's mobility. For example the scout. The Scout is the worst enemy for the inflitrator in my opinion because a good scout will stay very close to you so you get also damage from your explosives making the scout always winning. A reaper or a Berserker are also quite mobile and can easily dodge your EOC mines. If you are really planning to nerf the EOC (again) think about what many people said: "The EOC is hard to master, it requires skill to hit many mines diirectly and in a fight you will never hit every 6 mines."

If the EOC is going to be nerfed I'd just switch back to the HEAT-cannon as the damage output is then better than the EOC wich makes the EOC as the lv25 weapon very poor.

Other mechs
Not only the Inflitrator can use the EOC. For example the rocketeer can also use this weapon but with lv 4. The rocketeer is a medium difficult mech and the EOC fits not perfectly in his strategy. The EOC gives the rocketter just abit of area control as the seeker-rockets just explode if something is hit. Also the EOC does not increase accuracy when a target is locked on with the hellfire-rockets weapon. (The EOC has already a 100% accuracy rate).

My opinion
The EOC is a strong weapon yes, but only for those who master it. It cannot be used as high damage dealer over time and gives a bit of area control. The high lifetime of the mines prevent using the EOC as 'area-nuke-weapon' (Example: Mech 1 is camping behind the corner Mech 2 (has the EOC equipped) fires mines next to Mech 1, Mech 1 has enought time to move AWAY before hit by the EOC. If the mines explode after one-two seconds you can use the EOC just like the GL: shoot around corners.)

PS: This could be accepted as a flame for the EOC repeater.
PPS: my english is not the best I'm really sorry for that, I work hard in my english lessons to improve my english skills!
PPPS: I don't like "nerf suggestions" especially damage nerf suggestions. Your post has good ideas but not with quite good reasons. If all your suggestions become true, the word 'burst' would be unknown for every Hawken player and mechs would discover a huge damage loss making mechs with shotguns or explosives weapons very unpopular. True, one-hit-kills are quite annoying but 3 mech at once will dothe same, even nerfed.

...

no I'm not finished yet

...

If you feel replying on my post pleas do this in a non-rage way. If I'm wrong, tell me and tell my why! I'm open for every kind of improvements and I don't say my opinion is the best, it's just my opinion

Edited by FakeName, May 25 2013 - 08:25 AM.