25 replies to this topic

[Commy1]

So guys, now is the time for a comp scene to be established while we're in mature Beta and the problems we find can still be righted.

This first post will be my thoughts and opinion, I hope everyone else with an opinion to replies here be it entirely disagreeing with me, adding, editing or expressing an entirely new idea.

Siege:

I think the primary game type for competitive play should be Siege because it requires coordinated Team based skills and communication. This game type requires more than just being a good killer but a good decision maker with knowledge of mech builds

Unofficial Rules:

1. One of each mech allowed. (5 SharpShooters are NOT allowed)
2. A player is locked into 1 mech for the entire game EXCEPT the runner, who chooses 1 additional mech to switch into should they die.
3. Where a player might be locked into 1 mech, if they have another mech of the same class built differently, they may switch into it instead. (Example: EOC Infiltrator to Assault Rifle Infiltrator)
4. There can be either 1 SharpShooter or 1 Reaper, Not both.
5. Only the Runner may deliver collected EU.
6. No more than 3 players from a team can be on the AA at any one time.
7. Players can only enter the AA space after their ship has launched, not during the 10 seconds leading up to the launch or before. Guarding the perimeter of the AA is acceptable as long as they don't enter the circle for more than 5 seconds. (This would be hard to police without a spectator mode.)

Limited Weapons (Unofficial):

No Heat Cannon_

No RV-GL_

I know there is a lot of controversy around the Heat cannon and for some reason the RV-GL was also included in that, however my information might be outdated to pre-patch. As far as I'm concerned they addressed a couple of the issues around both of these weapons so

how viable they are is up for discussion.

5v5:

I think that for Siege 5 players versus 5 players would be a safe number however a full 6v6 server might also likely work just as well. If 5v5 were selected as the standard I reason that the roles would look something like this:

2 Forward (Scout, Infiltrator, Brawler, Raider*, Assault, CRT-Recruit, Berserker, Vanguard Cupcake)

2 Support (Sharpshooter, Rocketeer, Reaper, Grenadier,Bruiser)

1 Runner (Scout, Other)

Obviously as team play adapts this will change as long as the rules are upheld.

Edited by Commy1, March 29 2013 - 03:10 PM.

[Commy1]

Team Deathmatch:

I believe that there could be a limited comp scene in the Team Deathmatch ring. I think it's safe to say that with a limited number of players it would be a safe match. I suggest 1v1, 2v2 and possibly 3v3.

Unofficial Rules:

1. One of each mech allowed. (3 SharpShooters are NOT allowed)
2. A player is locked into 1 mech for the entire game.
3. There can be either 1 SharpShooter or 1 Reaper, Not both.

Limited Weapons (Unofficial):

No Heat Cannon_

No RV-GL_

I know there is a lot of controversy around the Heat cannon and for some reason the RV-GL was also included in that, however my information might be outdated to pre-patch. As far as I'm concerned they addressed a couple of the issues around both of these weapons so

how viable they are is up for discussion.

Edited by Commy1, March 29 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Commy1]

If the competitive scene doesn't want to wait or if Dev support isn't going to be supported within the game then it would be possible to register a ladder on Team Warfare League (TWL) or Game Shrine.

(I suggest Game Shrine as it is internationally used by teams from all over the gaming world, it also has a different and better system compared to TWL.)

[AsianJoyKiller]

Holy fuzzy bunny that's a lot of arbitrary rules...

EDIT: Just a first impression, so don't get overly worked up about this statement. I'm saying this because someone likely will.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, March 29 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[Skrill]

you clearly hate being sniped. the last comp we ran was no more than two of each type of mech and the ss sucks for point control so it was barely used and the team that did use ss lost badly due to not having another person on point.

[FenixStryk]

The general unspoken rules for competitive play have been:

• Missile Assault
  
• 5v5
  
• No Countermeasures
  
• Sahara is banned

That is the beginning and the end. Everything else is tourney-specific and not a universal rule for the game at this time.

[Commy1]

FenixStryk, on March 29 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

The general unspoken rules for competitive play have been:

• Missile Assault
  
• 5v5
  
• No Countermeasures
  
• Sahara is banned

That is the beginning and the end. Everything else is tourney-specific and not a universal rule for the game at this time.

I agree with the last 2, but don't entirely get the Missile Assault thing. Is that the only game type so far played_

Edited by Commy1, March 29 2013 - 02:52 PM.

[Commy1]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 29 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Holy fuzzy bunny that's a lot of arbitrary rules...

EDIT: Just a first impression, so don't get overly worked up about this statement. I'm saying this because someone likely will.

I don't have anything against SS, I just think that it's fair that an SS can hole up in a nest with cover from all but 1 side. This game is about movement, not about the long range sniper who can KS other players across 75% of the map.
I know where these spots are and I refuse to use them for any class. Mind that these amazing spot are primarily on Sahara.

It's a different matter when the team can work with the sniper for support, lure people out into the open or force them back into view. I am not against team work.

If you want I'll change it to 3 Scouts are NOT allowed

Edited by Commy1, March 29 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[Gookywun]

Here's a sample of rules that we played out in our "previous" team games against other clans in EU.

These rules were decided by BOTH of the clans participating in the matches organised, they are only rules WE used and have NO perminant stand in competitive play on Hawken.

Each team will consist of 5 players
We feel that 5 players is the best way to play a decent length match and also leaves room for a spectator to keep random pubs out.

Teams have to consist of 2 of each class (E.g 2 A Class, 2 B Class, 1 C Class, or any other way round).

This felt best to even out the number of classes played in a competitive game and to also make clans get used to using different mech classes in games.

Team have to consist of 2 of each type of mech (E.g 2 scout's, 2 Assaults, 1 Brawler, or any other way round).

This can be changed, some people may agree with it, some may not. But this worked really well in our games but we noticed there was never a time we had 2 of the same type of mech play out in a game.

Game mode will be Missle Assault

We always picked Missle Assault because we felt like it was the most fair game mode to play on Hawken for now, we still have yet to test Seige on Origin but Bazaar is a no-no for ANY competitive game mode IMO.

Best of 3 games

If a team wins 2 games then they are the winners.

Map of choice is Origin

The most balanced map out of the two for Missle Assault AND Seige.

Items / Weapons / Mechs banned :

EMP BANNED

This can be changed but we felt like we needed to ban it at the time when we had these rules.

REV-GL ( 1 Grenadier Restriction )

REV-GL can still be considered a "SPAM WEAPON" and many people really dislike it so we gave it a restriction AT THE TIME we had the matches.

CUPCAKE VANGUARD BANNED

We don't agree that a "exclusive" mech should be used during competitive games.

COUNTERMEASURES BANNED

Obvious reasons.

This is ONLY a sample but in future games we would tweak rules every now and then to see how it mixes up and to keep up with monthly patches.

We also wanted to add the rules : No Chassis swapping. EOC limit (1 per mech unless fixed), Detonator ban.

[FenixStryk]

Gookywun, on March 29 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

CUPCAKE VANGUARD:

BANNED

We don't agree that a "exclusive" mech should be used during competitive games.

Oh, I forgot about this. Yes, Cupcake should be banned along with all other Pay-only Mechs. They are banned for the same reason console-specific characters are banned in fighting game tournaments -- limited availability and lack of balance testing.

Commy1, on March 29 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

I don't entirely get the Missile Assault thing. Is that the only game type so far played_

Missile Assault on Origin is the most fair team-based setting currently available in Open Beta. I'd prefer if someone else touched on why Siege is an absolute disgrace, but the short of it is that the EU Gathering phase is too passive, the AA Defense phase is too binary (often rewarding one team with insurmountable momentum), and stalemates are a near-guarantee if both teams focus on shooting ships down at their base.

Considering we are still in Open Beta, our goal should be to simplify tournament rule sets to their absolute bare minimum. Using tournament data to improve the game becomes an impossibility if weapon bans are constantly in place.


As for your rules: Runners_ Only 3 under the AA_ You can't hold the AA outside of the AA phase_ Most of the rules you suggested are entirely absurd.

Edited by FenixStryk, March 29 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[FuryMonster]

i see allot of rules that are pretty strict  to over compensate for how bad siege currently is to try and make it playable

GL with this

[AsianJoyKiller]

FenixStryk, on March 29 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

As for your rules: Runners_ Only 3 under the AA_ You can't hold the AA outside of the AA phase_ Most of the rules you suggested are entirely absurd.

As well as extremely difficult to enforce, and completely arbitrary in ways that only stifle gameplay.

[Exeon]

Siege is a horrible game mode and incredibly easy to defend against an attacking ship without using the AA, I may come off as rude here but you may want to do some research into the  game modes and mechs before you look into starting a competitive environment. As far as the Rev-GL and Heat Cannon I'd say heat cannon is still top dog in the game but it isn't overpowering, rev-gl is likewise a strong weapon but I think it is in line with the other weapons and exceptional at its niche, area denial.

[Commy1]

Commy1, on March 29 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

As for your rules: Runners_ Only 3 under the AA_ You can't hold the AA outside of the AA phase_ Most of the rules you suggested are entirely absurd.

These are suggestions, it is a strict suggestion but I only put it out there because Siege is broken because of the momentum you mentioned. Stop attacking me as if you have any idea or office to suggest I'm wrong..

[Commy1]

Exeon, on March 29 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Siege is a horrible game mode and incredibly easy to defend against an attacking ship without using the AA, I may come off as rude here but you may want to do some research into the  game modes and mechs before you look into starting a competitive environment. As far as the Rev-GL and Heat Cannon I'd say heat cannon is still top dog in the game but it isn't overpowering, rev-gl is likewise a strong weapon but I think it is in line with the other weapons and exceptional at its niche, area denial.

The point of this thread is to discuss, please read the whole post before telling me to do research. I play this game quite a bit, I understand the RV-GL and the Heat cannon, as it clearly says, how viable weapons are is up for discussion.

The concept of Siege is not a horrible game type, it's just the way things are set up at this time isn't ideal. I think that this is also all due to lack of team communication and skill.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Commy1, on March 29 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Commy1, on March 29 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

As for your rules: Runners_ Only 3 under the AA_ You can't hold the AA outside of the AA phase_ Most of the rules you suggested are entirely absurd.

These are suggestions, it is a strict suggestion but I only put it out there because Siege is broken because of the momentum you mentioned. Stop attacking me as if you have any idea or office to suggest I'm wrong..

I don't think you understand how extremely broken Siege is, and why slathering a ton of complex and strange rules on top of a broken game mode will not help make it better.

[Commy1]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 29 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Commy1, on March 29 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Commy1, on March 29 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

As for your rules: Runners_ Only 3 under the AA_ You can't hold the AA outside of the AA phase_ Most of the rules you suggested are entirely absurd.

These are suggestions, it is a strict suggestion but I only put it out there because Siege is broken because of the momentum you mentioned. Stop attacking me as if you have any idea or office to suggest I'm wrong..

I don't think you understand how extremely broken Siege is, and why slathering a ton of complex and strange rules on top of a broken game mode will not help make it better.

What would you suggest_ You obviously have more of an idea than I do. I want ideas.

[FenixStryk]

Do not misconstrue criticism as an attack. Instead, accept the burden of proof and tell us what you feel your rules solved, and why we need them in the first place.

Rules need to be beneficial, enforceable and easy to understand. Outside of obvious rules like mode, map, team size and weapon restrictions, you should be looking into ideal bracket types, registration management and rules for disqualification (e.g., late 15 minutes = you lose the first round; late 30 minutes = disqualified).


Under the 5v5 MA rule set, it is highly unlikely that a gimmick composition (e.g. five EOC Raiders) would win multiple tournaments. It is for that reason that I am against duplicate Mech bans at this time.

[Commy1]

FenixStryk, on March 29 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Under the 5v5 MA rule set, it is highly unlikely that a gimmick composition (e.g. five EOC Raiders) would win multiple tournaments. It is for that reason that I am against duplicate Mech bans at this time.

Those specifics, should a competitive scene chose to use TWL or Gameshrine are already set out. The reason for this type of rule set is only because in its current state we'd have pubs. There should be a difference between pubs and comp. Your exact example, a gimmick set up is exactly what would happen and unlike what you've said, they would win. The reason I used the SS so heavily in my outline was because I think that is in fact the one gimmick people would run with and win.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Commy1, on March 29 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

What would you suggest_ You obviously have more of an idea than I do. I want ideas.

I would suggest that if a game mode is so broken that you would need to set up an extensive and complicated ruleset just to make it theoretically workable, then it should be left out of competitive play entirely.