89 replies to this topic

[Akaon]

Beemann, on April 27 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

A technician shooting and healing overheats fairly quickly as well. And yes, anything related to heat/overheating can be compared with other classes - as all classes have heat generation and can overheat.

A technician is much easier to manage heat on than a burst fire class with a high heat cost. Additionally, its healing only SOMETIMES generates heat, and automatically hits as long as you're aiming in roughly the correct direction. This would be the equivalent of letting me spam shots for free, because my shots aren't doing anything otherwise right_
It doesn't generate heat while healing someone when you're both at full health. If you want to compare that to you being able to shoot for free, then you'd have to put it like this: if you're shooting in the air with no viable targets around, your shots should be free. Since that wouldn't change a damn thing about the game, if you really want it, you can have it for all I care.

Additionally, if we're talking about the definition of comparable, then yes... however you seem to be using it to mean that they're basically the same thing, and they arent... just like the SA Hawkins and MIRV aren't the same thing despite the fact that they both deal damage and generate heat
In terms of how heat works, they're all the same.

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

The first part of this is a vague comment, you can't expect me to know what you're talking about if you're going to be this vague, please elaborate. The second part is nonsense, not sure if you're actually trying to make a point with that. It's like randomly buffing and nerfing guns by 2.5% just because you won't really notice it.

You're talking about the self heal like it's the only thing the tech has going for it, or like it's the only difference between the tech and another class in terms of utility and ease of use. It's one of a large list of things that are unnecessary on the technician (not so much the self heal itself, but the persistence of it, and the lack of proper restriction on it)
And you're the one who has been arguing it doesn't matter. If it doesn't, why can't every other class have it_
Pretty sure that the fact that the self heal generates heat means it has a restriction. Also, since when does not mattering equal "its applicable to any and everything"_ Should we give every mech a brawler turret mode as well while we're at it, since it's pretty much useless now_

deidarall, on April 27 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

deidarall, on April 27 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Ya sure we are buddy sure we are.

You do realize that I made that statement because the person I'm arguing with has been insisting that the self heal isn't important right_ And the implication that it could, as a result, go on other mechs is there to illustrate that it is, in fact, a factor
If not, hooray for your intentional quote-mining! Yay!
Yay, being misrepresented so you can make a point. I said it's not a problem, as it is too weak to be an issue, while being limited by heat generation. Still a silly comparison btw.

By the way Beemann, if predictable heat generation is really such a problem, why haven't you ever complained about the similarly predictable heat generation on the: assault rifle, SMC, point D vulcan, SA hawkins, AM SAR, ripper and miniflak_

Edited by Akaon, April 27 2013 - 09:15 PM.

[Beemann]

Akaon, on April 27 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

It doesn't generate heat while healing someone when you're both at full health. If you want to compare that to you being able to shoot for free, then you'd have to put it like this: if you're shooting in the air with no viable targets around, your shots should be free. Since that wouldn't change a damn thing about the game, if you really want it, you can have it for all I care.

Except shots fired into the air wont magically hit people the second they pop into view

Akaon, on April 27 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

In terms of how heat works, they're all the same.

Only if your only measurement is "does it generate heat"
Which is like saying a lemonade stand and Microsoft are the same thing because they both make money

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Pretty sure that the fact that the self heal generates heat means it has a restriction. Also, since when does not mattering equal "its applicable to any and everything"_ Should we give every mech a brawler turret mode as well while we're at it, since it's pretty much useless now_

The Raider also had a restriction, as did the EMP, as did the stagger-king Grenadier, and the Detonator, and the intagib PS Sharpshooter
A restriction doesn't mean something is okay. The restriction has to be suitable and effective

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Yay, being misrepresented so you can make a point. I said it's not a problem, as it is too weak to be an issue, while being limited by heat generation. Still a silly comparison btw.

Except you weren't misrepresented. Within the context of the debate, you're arguing that it isn't important. It's not worth talking about or removing
In fact, you implicitly accepted the position of stating it's not important in the same post, as things that don't matter are, by definition, of no importance

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

By the way Beemann, if predictable heat generation is really such a problem, why haven't you ever complained about the similarly predictable heat generation on the: assault rifle, SMC, point D vulcan, SA hawkins, AM SAR, ripper and miniflak_

Because:
A: they're not the same thing
and
B: because they're basically not worth using in the current meta

[Akaon]

Beemann, on April 27 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Akaon, on April 27 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

It doesn't generate heat while healing someone when you're both at full health. If you want to compare that to you being able to shoot for free, then you'd have to put it like this: if you're shooting in the air with no viable targets around, your shots should be free. Since that wouldn't change a damn thing about the game, if you really want it, you can have it for all I care.

Except shots fired into the air wont magically hit people the second they pop into view
If they did but dealt no damage, like the healing beam when healing someone at full health, would that change anything_

Akaon, on April 27 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

In terms of how heat works, they're all the same.

Only if your only measurement is "does it generate heat"
Which is like saying a lemonade stand and Microsoft are the same thing because they both make money
Yes, it's something they have in common, which is generating heat in this case. And in any weapons' case, heat is a limiting factor.

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Pretty sure that the fact that the self heal generates heat means it has a restriction. Also, since when does not mattering equal "its applicable to any and everything"_ Should we give every mech a brawler turret mode as well while we're at it, since it's pretty much useless now_

The Raider also had a restriction, as did the EMP, as did the stagger-king Grenadier, and the Detonator, and the intagib PS Sharpshooter
A restriction doesn't mean something is okay. The restriction has to be suitable and effective
I doubt I used the argument that purely having restrictions automatically means that it's ok. I'm under the impression that that the fact that it has a restriction based on its heat generation, and this heat generation being high enough, that it's balanced enough. Not 100% perfect, mainly feel the ability is a little overwhelming.

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Yay, being misrepresented so you can make a point. I said it's not a problem, as it is too weak to be an issue, while being limited by heat generation. Still a silly comparison btw.

Except you weren't misrepresented. Within the context of the debate, you're arguing that it isn't important. It's not worth talking about or removing
In fact, you implicitly accepted the position of stating it's not important in the same post, as things that don't matter are, by definition, of no importance
Yes, the self heal when healing someone on full health doesn't make a big impact. It's rather inefficient. Still don't get how this is such a big problem to you.

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

By the way Beemann, if predictable heat generation is really such a problem, why haven't you ever complained about the similarly predictable heat generation on the: assault rifle, SMC, point D vulcan, SA hawkins, AM SAR, ripper and miniflak_

Because:
A: they're not the same thing
and
B: because they're basically not worth using in the current meta
You mentioned that easily managed heat generation is a problem, these guns have similar *issues*. I actually quite like using them currently, pretty good success with them so far. And as an added benefit, their high dps is quite useful in countering a tech's healing, more so than low dps burst weapons.

This is slowly becoming unproductive arguing about what we said, not so much about discussing the technician anymore :.

[Tzukasa]

Only two things that needs to change is when more than 1 tech is healing a target, well IMO it should do Nothing, or at the least reduce its effectiveness by half. And the whole repairing something that is at 100% to self heal needs to be removed completely.

If the target is 50% the tech should def get a self heal but NOT if the target is 100%, that is absurd and makes it too hard to focus fire the tech down while ignoring the person in front of him he is healing. Which Is What You Do to Kill Healers. Ignore the tank kill the healer simple, basic online pvp game thing and the tech being able to heal while trying to do that is really the only op thing about them.

Edited by Tzukasa, April 28 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[Dinre]

Anyone else think all this tech hate will blow over as soon as a new mech is released to cry foul about_  It seems like this in every game... we complain about each new change, but then we get used to the changes and eventually end up defending them.

Personally, I've enjoyed playing the technician, which is my measure of how "good" a mech is.  I'm still bored by the sharpshooter, which I found to be way easier to play than the tech.  Zoom, point, shoot, kill, pick new vantage point.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

[FussyBadger]

Dinre, on April 30 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

Anyone else think all this tech hate will blow over as soon as a new mech is released to cry foul about_  It seems like this in every game... we complain about each new change, but then we get used to the changes and eventually end up defending them.

I'm not so sure it will. With a combat-oriented mech, it's easier to figure out ways to adapt and work around it as an individual. With the tech, it's either hoping that you can kill the tech first or teamwork and coordination. It's a pretty different factor from the usual "OMFG! OP!"

The complaining in our game last night really was something else.

[Dinre]

FussyBadger, on April 30 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Dinre, on April 30 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

Anyone else think all this tech hate will blow over as soon as a new mech is released to cry foul about_  It seems like this in every game... we complain about each new change, but then we get used to the changes and eventually end up defending them.

I'm not so sure it will. With a combat-oriented mech, it's easier to figure out ways to adapt and work around it as an individual. With the tech, it's either hoping that you can kill the tech first or teamwork and coordination. It's a pretty different factor from the usual "OMFG! OP!"

The complaining in our game last night really was something else.

You say that now, but wait until they release the C-class "Bully" with dual flak cannons, and a NCLR-BMB ability that kills everything in a 100m area on death.  Then you'll love the tech patch.  

(Btw, devs... I really want those dual flak cannons.)

[FussyBadger]

Dinre, on April 30 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

You say that now, but wait until they release the C-class "Bully" with dual flak cannons, and a NCLR-BMB ability that kills everything in a 100m area on death.  Then you'll love the tech patch.  

Oh, I can certainly imagine additions that would make the Tech look great. I foolishly hope they won't be so extreme with new mechs. Oh so foolishly.

[Beemann]

Akaon, on April 28 2013 - 04:03 AM, said:

If they did but dealt no damage, like the healing beam when healing someone at full health, would that change anything_

Yes it would. You're aware of the Grenadier right_ You know what "spam shots" are_
Or do I need to break out a few Quake comp vids for that to be illustrated_

Akaon, on April 27 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

Yes, it's something they have in common, which is generating heat in this case. And in any weapons' case, heat is a limiting factor.

Except you're not arguing "things in common" you're arguing that things of varying severity are the same. You're arging that despite the fact that heat generation varies, that it's always the same non-issue... despite the fact that very few guns have the level of persistence that the Helix does
Lemonade stand = Microsoft in terms of not worrying about money
Why_ Because they both make money
Don't worry about getting a job guys, just start a Lemonade stand

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

I doubt I used the argument that purely having restrictions automatically means that it's ok. I'm under the impression that that the fact that it has a restriction based on its heat generation, and this heat generation being high enough, that it's balanced enough. Not 100% perfect, mainly feel the ability is a little overwhelming.

Except all you've really done is assert that. Shouldn't the heat generation being a problem mean that more players should complain about heat generation_

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Yes, the self heal when healing someone on full health doesn't make a big impact. It's rather inefficient. Still don't get how this is such a big problem to you.

Except it DOES make an impact. The downtime on a technician playing their cards right is EXTREMELY low. Do you not see why this is a factor_ Do you not see why this is problematic_
If the self heal was ONLY for feedback (read: heals that are doing something) then the technician would be forced to look for a new heal target in the event that it's getting pummeled

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

You mentioned that easily managed heat generation is a problem, these guns have similar *issues*. I actually quite like using them currently, pretty good success with them so far. And as an added benefit, their high dps is quite useful in countering a tech's healing, more so than low dps burst weapons.

You being successful with them doesn't make them more useful than the other weapons. Additionally, you seem to be misunderstanding here
Your DPS being lowered down to pretty much nothing does not make you a counter for a technician's healing. What does is being able to take out half or more of the enemy's health instantly, which burst classes do. The longer you take to dish out the damage, the less efficient it is

Edited by Beemann, April 30 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[Wasabi_Wei]

I would like to see how well a coordinated team can cause a Tech (or two) to overheat given a sustained decent average damage over time. Burst would be great of course, but rather than playing pinpoint peekaboo burst focused fire maybe a team could hang back a little on the fringes of cover and keep popping out more or less randomly forcing the SS'es and rocket users to have to switch targets or get real patient and forcing the healer to have to maintain some rate of heals and monitor a multitude of targets all at once.

When I play as a Tech after about 45 seconds my bars are red even in a normal fight where I can pretty easily heal the main target without even having to jump around. I would be mentally drained if everyone's bars were popping randomly and I had to keep that up monitoring heat by the time a fight even started (in earnest, like a push) if the ball of death was softened up for a good minute or so first.

Edited by Wasabi_Wei, April 30 2013 - 02:52 PM.