89 replies to this topic

[Beemann]

Akaon, on April 25 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

KaszaWspraju, on April 21 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

1. Rapid heat generation on the Repair torch - ok. slightly increase
2. Remove self healing feature totally - no, maybe slightly reduce.
3. Techs can currently 'heal' someone who is at 100% health, and as a result they also self heal which negates the need to stop and use the Repair drone - yes, Technician should not gained anything when he cure mech up to 100% HP.

Agree with you on 1 and 2. 3 However, it generates heat, and instead of healing 2 mechs, you just heal yourself, meaning its quite inefficient plus when your target starts taking damage, you already built up some heat, meaning you can then, in turn, heal your target for less health. I think this pretty much balances itself out.

Can I have mobile heals at the cost of easily managed heat generation too_
Signed: Every other class in the game

[the_Sprawl]

I didn't jump on the "plz nerf" wagon the second the Tech entered the scene. But I gave it some time to see what was what and so forth.

Based on my experience as mainly a Reaper player, I have one big issue with it. And that's the fact it can heal a mech taking dmg. That should not be allowed. Ever.

We all know in 2v1 scenario of equal players, 1 should loose. But it's not guaranteed. Clever maneuvering and heat management can grant you a last saving kill before you die. If one of the 2 is a tech, I'd say its highly unlikely to get either of them. Need a break to manage heat_ Welcome back, the 2 are now at full health.

Removing ability to heal a mech taking dmg will suddenly make the Tech a balanced support mech. And you can actually get away with the auto aim and sticky beams. Dmg should disrupt the healing or greatly increase heat for the Tech.( Even more than the extra health it has to replenish from the fighting). Vampire beam is cool, and offensively the Tech is ok.

But I absolutely can't stand the feeling when I've  managed to deal close to 700 dmg to an A-mech and still end up dead...This puppy on a leash healing while fighting is just ruining it for me. Especially when playing Reaper and delivering high dps is hard enough as it is.

[Aptest]

the_Sprawl, on April 25 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Removing ability to heal a mech taking dmg will suddenly make the Tech a balanced support mech. And you can actually get away with the auto aim and sticky beams. Dmg should disrupt the healing or greatly increase heat for the Tech.( Even more than the extra health it has to replenish from the fighting). Vampire beam is cool, and offensively the Tech is ok.

Bad idea.

Saving an ally that is taking damage is the good part of the tech (what you don't want).

The part where he goes into a protected spot and opens an infirmary and starts playing the part of a TF2 dispenser (what you want),

that's the problem.

[the_Sprawl]

Aptest, on April 25 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

the_Sprawl, on April 25 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Removing ability to heal a mech taking dmg will suddenly make the Tech a balanced support mech. And you can actually get away with the auto aim and sticky beams. Dmg should disrupt the healing or greatly increase heat for the Tech.( Even more than the extra health it has to replenish from the fighting). Vampire beam is cool, and offensively the Tech is ok.

Bad idea.

Saving an ally that is taking damage is the good part of the tech (what you don't want).

The part where he goes into a protected spot and opens an infirmary and starts playing the part of a TF2 dispenser (what you want),

that's the problem.

So, by that logic, if the Tech could only heal a mech taking dmg, it would all be good_

[Moderator03]

Please keep posts constructive to the topic and inviting to other members of the community. Thank you.

[Aptest]

the_Sprawl, on April 25 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Aptest, on April 25 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

the_Sprawl, on April 25 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Removing ability to heal a mech taking dmg will suddenly make the Tech a balanced support mech. And you can actually get away with the auto aim and sticky beams. Dmg should disrupt the healing or greatly increase heat for the Tech.( Even more than the extra health it has to replenish from the fighting). Vampire beam is cool, and offensively the Tech is ok.

Bad idea.

Saving an ally that is taking damage is the good part of the tech (what you don't want).

The part where he goes into a protected spot and opens an infirmary and starts playing the part of a TF2 dispenser (what you want),

that's the problem.

So, by that logic, if the Tech could only heal a mech taking dmg, it would all be good_

Yes.

There are a number of core problems with the technician s.a the degradation of (future possible) strategy to "kill the tech" and such. But the thing that breaks the game is the removal of long term pacing through the mechanic of poke damage nullification.

[the_Sprawl]

the_Sprawl, on April 25 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Aptest, on April 25 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

the_Sprawl, on April 25 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Removing ability to heal a mech taking dmg will suddenly make the Tech a balanced support mech. And you can actually get away with the auto aim and sticky beams. Dmg should disrupt the healing or greatly increase heat for the Tech.( Even more than the extra health it has to replenish from the fighting). Vampire beam is cool, and offensively the Tech is ok.

Bad idea.

Saving an ally that is taking damage is the good part of the tech (what you don't want).

The part where he goes into a protected spot and opens an infirmary and starts playing the part of a TF2 dispenser (what you want),

that's the problem.

So, by that logic, if the Tech could only heal a mech taking dmg, it would all be good_

I might have been unclear so I'll emphasize.

Recieving heals on the fly in-combat promotes Ball-of-death gameplay. (What I don't like).
Due to the greatly reduced dps, only way to overcome this is team focus fire. There are no valid strategies to stop this. (what I don't like)

It promotes stalemates. Since there is no way to force the enemy into a  position to take advantage of, how can stalemates be broken_
This is even more evident in the objective based game modes like siege and missile assault. How can you even hope to capture a missile silo or the AA when defenders are being healed by a Tech in relative safety of cover behind or inside the AA_

Obvious answer, move as ball of death. (What I don't like).

If enemy mechs have to retreat to recieve repairs, a potentially exploitable situations arises. One or two mech are forced out of combat. This is what breaking the defenders advantage is all about. (What I like).

How to deploy this I'm more uncertain of. A mech retreating to the relative safety of the AA or behind the MS to recieve healing isn't a good idea either. I can see that.

In team deathmatch, forcing a mech or two out of the action can be just enough to make a push and drive the enemy team off the cliff so to speak. Right now, ball of death is only viable strategy due to lack of options to break stalemates that occur due to nullified dps from both teams.

[Aptest]

I might have been unclear so I'll emphasize.

Quote

Recieving heals on the fly in-combat promotes Ball-of-death gameplay. (What I don't like).

No. Sticking together and focusing fire on targets was good strategy before the technician too. Ball of death gameplay is a good baseline play that isn't affected by the presence of the tech.

Quote

Due to the greatly reduced dps, only way to overcome this is team focus fire. There are no valid strategies to stop this. (what I don't like)

Also incorrect. There are a number of strategies (4-5 basic strats) for breaking up enemy clusters. Most of them involve flanking to some extent. I posted a good list of them in one of the other topics.

Quote

It promotes stalemates. Since there is no way to force the enemy into a  position to take advantage of, how can stalemates be broken_
This is even more evident in the objective based game modes like siege and missile assault. How can you even hope to capture a missile silo or the AA when defenders are being healed by a Tech in relative safety of cover behind or inside the AA_

The tech promotes stalemates. But the mechanism by which it promotes stalemates is not combat heals, but rather noncombat heals. The problem is not the guy in front who's tanking everything because of a medic behind him, but the guy in the middle that has zero downtime and doesn't have to "go to the back of the AA to heal".

[Akaon]

Beemann, on April 25 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Akaon, on April 25 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

KaszaWspraju, on April 21 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

1. Rapid heat generation on the Repair torch - ok. slightly increase
2. Remove self healing feature totally - no, maybe slightly reduce.
3. Techs can currently 'heal' someone who is at 100% health, and as a result they also self heal which negates the need to stop and use the Repair drone - yes, Technician should not gained anything when he cure mech up to 100% HP.

Agree with you on 1 and 2. 3 However, it generates heat, and instead of healing 2 mechs, you just heal yourself, meaning its quite inefficient plus when your target starts taking damage, you already built up some heat, meaning you can then, in turn, heal your target for less health. I think this pretty much balances itself out.

Can I have mobile heals at the cost of easily managed heat generation too_
Signed: Every other class in the game

Hmm, interesting, you'd give up your secondary gun for a poor self heal that only works if there's an ally nearby to heal_ Or in case that wasn't referred to the self heal in particular: You'd give up on your secondary on every mech_ Techs are great if there's just a few of them, if you get too many techs they become a little redundant.

Easily managed does not equal great performance or dumbed down gameplay. The mech is still limited to how much it can heal due to the fact that it generates quite a bit of heat. Actually, overheating on purpose will allow you to heal for a larger amount than letting yourself cool down passively (resulting in more healing in the end), just like how that will result in more total damage output in the long run for normal mechs.

You're oversimplifying matters, the heat generation limits its potential, just because it's easy to manage doesn't mean it's bad. (and p.s., heat management is easy on every mech, it just comes down to knowing your limits and some experience with the weapons, this one might be easier, but not much, the difference is hardly worth mentioning. It would be a problem if it was very easy to manage and did not generate much heat at all, yet healed for a lot, but then we'd be talking about directly and not just about easy heat management.).

[Beemann]

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

Hmm, interesting, you'd give up your secondary gun for a poor self heal that only works if there's an ally nearby to heal_ Or in case that wasn't referred to the self heal in particular: You'd give up on your secondary on every mech_ Techs are great if there's just a few of them, if you get too many techs they become a little redundant.

Easily managed does not equal great performance or dumbed down gameplay. The mech is still limited to how much it can heal due to the fact that it generates quite a bit of heat. Actually, overheating on purpose will allow you to heal for a larger amount than letting yourself cool down passively (resulting in more healing in the end), just like how that will result in more total damage output in the long run for normal mechs.

You're oversimplifying matters, the heat generation limits its potential, just because it's easy to manage doesn't mean it's bad. (and p.s., heat management is easy on every mech, it just comes down to knowing your limits and some experience with the weapons, this one might be easier, but not much, the difference is hardly worth mentioning. It would be a problem if it was very easy to manage and did not generate much heat at all, yet healed for a lot, but then we'd be talking about directly and not just about easy heat management.).

Except the healgun doesn't only heal yourself. It would be the equivalent of shooting at an ally and gaining health
Your argument was that it generates heat, but ultimately if the heat generation it presents isn't a problem for most experienced players then it's basically a non-issue. If heat management is easy, then it isn't a suitable trade-off
So again, why can't my Brawler, Sharpshooter or Infiltrator have the ability to spam shots at an ally in order to magically regain health_ It'll actually take more skill considering their weapons actually require some semblance of aim

[Akaon]

Beemann, on April 26 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

Hmm, interesting, you'd give up your secondary gun for a poor self heal that only works if there's an ally nearby to heal_ Or in case that wasn't referred to the self heal in particular: You'd give up on your secondary on every mech_ Techs are great if there's just a few of them, if you get too many techs they become a little redundant.

Easily managed does not equal great performance or dumbed down gameplay. The mech is still limited to how much it can heal due to the fact that it generates quite a bit of heat. Actually, overheating on purpose will allow you to heal for a larger amount than letting yourself cool down passively (resulting in more healing in the end), just like how that will result in more total damage output in the long run for normal mechs.

You're oversimplifying matters, the heat generation limits its potential, just because it's easy to manage doesn't mean it's bad. (and p.s., heat management is easy on every mech, it just comes down to knowing your limits and some experience with the weapons, this one might be easier, but not much, the difference is hardly worth mentioning. It would be a problem if it was very easy to manage and did not generate much heat at all, yet healed for a lot, but then we'd be talking about directly and not just about easy heat management.).

Except the healgun doesn't only heal yourself. It would be the equivalent of shooting at an ally and gaining health
Your argument was that it generates heat, but ultimately if the heat generation it presents isn't a problem for most experienced players then it's basically a non-issue. If heat management is easy, then it isn't a suitable trade-off
So again, why can't my Brawler, Sharpshooter or Infiltrator have the ability to spam shots at an ally in order to magically regain health_ It'll actually take more skill considering their weapons actually require some semblance of aim

Let me use this as an example of what I'm trying to say then: imagine the current healgun, but it would overheat in 2 seconds, however, it still builds up in an extremely predictable fashion therefore it is easy to manage. This gun would be weak, clearly, so the trade-off here would be high heat gen vs easy heat management, while still being weak due to the almost non-existent impact this gun would have.

Trade-offs are not purely about heat management. They are about difficulty of using a weapon weighed against the potential of the gun (the potential is in turn limited by, amongst others, heat production). Heat management is easy on any mech, so I'm not sure how the technician is suddenly a problem when it comes to that.

[Beemann]

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Let me use this as an example of what I'm trying to say then: imagine the current healgun, but it would overheat in 2 seconds, however, it still builds up in an extremely predictable fashion therefore it is easy to manage. This gun would be weak, clearly, so the trade-off here would be high heat gen vs easy heat management, while still being weak due to the almost non-existent impact this gun would have.

"Imagine a scenario that I constructed that doesn't actually have anything to do with what you said, but is based on assumptions I have made for you"
Nice
The heat generation is not high enough for it to be a problem at high end. The heat generation is also very predictable, which makes it even more forgiving. The lack of aim required means that something else should be put in for the healing to be anywhere near as high as it is. Heat is inadequate in this scenario

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Trade-offs are not purely about heat management. They are about difficulty of using a weapon weighed against the potential of the gun (the potential is in turn limited by, amongst others, heat production). Heat management is easy on any mech, so I'm not sure how the technician is suddenly a problem when it comes to that.

Because its output is crazy when it comes to that+the lack of difficulty in using the healing leash and the utility of always accessible self heals goes even further beyond that

Edited by Beemann, April 26 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[Cloudstorm]

Disagree with the balance issues. In its current form it allows a range of players who do not have the best movement skill to achieve high level scores which until now have been restricted to the agile.
Helping a team in a proactive manner is worth encouraging

[Beemann]

Cloudstorm, on April 26 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Disagree with the balance issues. In its current form it allows a range of players who do not have the best movement skill to achieve high level scores which until now have been restricted to the agile.
Helping a team in a proactive manner is worth encouraging

I`m actually not entirely sure where to start here. I suppose I should really point out that people having an equally higher output with much less effort is actually a measure if imbalance, and question your assertion that people shouldn`t have to be good at something to do well in that particular thing
Additionally, the lack of movement is only really a factor on C mechs. The Technician is an A mech and is thus one of the more mobile mechs in the game. Additionally it doesn`t stress much in the way of aiming skill either, so that`s right out as well
So why should this mech do as well as mechs that require both_ Why should someone with no talent or practice time put in perform adequately, despite the fact that everyone else (read: everyone who played before its addition) had to actually practice those things_

On the subject of turret mode specifically:
Why should we have an ability tailored specifically to people who can`t use dodge_ Why is this preferable to a mechanic that scales appropriately with skill level_

Edited by Beemann, April 26 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[Akaon]

Beemann, on April 26 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Let me use this as an example of what I'm trying to say then: imagine the current healgun, but it would overheat in 2 seconds, however, it still builds up in an extremely predictable fashion therefore it is easy to manage. This gun would be weak, clearly, so the trade-off here would be high heat gen vs easy heat management, while still being weak due to the almost non-existent impact this gun would have.

"Imagine a scenario that I constructed that doesn't actually have anything to do with what you said, but is based on assumptions I have made for you"
Nice
The heat generation is not high enough for it to be a problem at high end. The heat generation is also very predictable, which makes it even more forgiving. The lack of aim required means that something else should be put in for the healing to be anywhere near as high as it is. Heat is inadequate in this scenario

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Trade-offs are not purely about heat management. They are about difficulty of using a weapon weighed against the potential of the gun (the potential is in turn limited by, amongst others, heat production). Heat management is easy on any mech, so I'm not sure how the technician is suddenly a problem when it comes to that.

Because its output is crazy when it comes to that+the lack of difficulty in using the healing leash and the utility of always accessible self heals goes even further beyond that

Not about the scenario, it's about the point I'm trying to make. The point that you still don't get appearantly.

You say that "The heat generation is not high enough for it to be a problem at high end", so I'll assume there's no actual problem then.

Only thing that needs changing/nerfing is the ability if you ask me, too much healing output there. The selfheal is way too inefficient to be worth mentioning overall.

[deidarall]

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haven't run into anyone yet who has had any issues with the heat levels on the technician. What's worse, the people in question haven't played a game like GA where they'd already pick up better management skill than the technician requires (because decent movement and gun-centric heals are tied to the same resource). I'm not trying to badmouth you or anything, but just because you lose heal targets doesn't mean other people do as well. I would think that the reason for allowing players into beta tests, in addition to stress testing and the like, is to examine the mechs you've created in situations outside your personal experience or internal tests. I would, in no way, expect the internal testing team, to be the top pilots or to find all of the bugs, and on the flip side of that I find it somewhat unreasonable that you've determined that certain things are not possible based on those experiences alone. It has nothing to do with the quality of the testing team and everything to do with the limitations of having a small sample size to draw from

...

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haven't run into anyone yet who has had any issues with the heat levels on the technician.

Really_ Did you have to make that statement_ Just that urgggg look if you are playing tech correctly and healing all you can you will run into heat issues in fact most Tech teamd die due to overheat of either the tank or tech.... To say that tech does not have heat issues when they often die because of them makes me derp.

Quote

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Except they don't. Healbeam medics in Firefall were tremendously dull, and the Biotech was vastly superior in terms of playability, class balance and skill curve. What's hilarious is that the technician is almost a carbon copy of the Firefall Medic, which was deemed both by the devs and the competitive community to be a huge mistake.[/font]
[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]As for TF2, the Medic HAS been problematic. Comp play revolves around it, and outside of quad airshotting ubertargets away from anything relevant, the way to counter uber is with more uber. Medics are always restricted in high end play[/font]

,,,, Expect I disagree that having medic in high level play could be called a  "problem"

Edited by deidarall, April 26 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[Beemann]

deidarall, on April 26 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

*insert comment ignoring the parameters of my statement*

Good to know that you know all the people who I've previously discussed it with

Akaon, on April 26 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Not about the scenario, it's about the point I'm trying to make. The point that you still don't get appearantly.

You say that "The heat generation is not high enough for it to be a problem at high end", so I'll assume there's no actual problem then.

Only thing that needs changing/nerfing is the ability if you ask me, too much healing output there. The selfheal is way too inefficient to be worth mentioning overall.

It's funny because you're extrapolating a comment I made specifically about the technician to the rest of the classes. Some of the classes now and in the past have had reasonably high heat generation and it's not actually on a perfectly timed basis, and you can run into those constraints fairly quickly

Additionally I like how you continually ignore the fact that the self heal is not in a vacuum, it is part of a larger set of problems. As well, if it's too inefficient to be worth mentioning, why cant I self heal by shooting allies with my heat cannon_

[deidarall]

Quote

Good to know that you know all the people who I've previously discussed it with

I know who I have played with and talked to thanks and I am saying what I have heard from those people and from playing tech, if you would like to address my statement that would be nice.

Edited by deidarall, April 26 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[deidarall]

Quote

Additionally I like how you continually ignore the fact that the self heal is not in a vacuum, it is part of a larger set of problems. As well, if it's too inefficient to be worth mentioning, why cant I self heal by shooting allies with my heat cannon_

Why can't I have power shot on raider_ Why can't I have Rev-Gl on my scout_ Can I have a cool down power on every mech I have_ Why can I not have this or that on my classes_ Why does asking this question make any points about tech being OP_ Every class has it's own powers and such.... have you not realized that_ So...... what are you trying to say_


Edit: BTW I can see the uber power on tech taking a nerf dart however I disagree with increased heat gen or decreasing the normal health regain rates including self-heal.

Edited by deidarall, April 26 2013 - 08:13 PM.

[OdinTheWise]

I think that most of the opponents to the tech are making a bigger deal out of this than needs to be. If no changes effected the tech for the next few months, we will have figured easy counters to the tech (emp *cough*) and life will go on. So instead of arguing about a simple thing such as the tech, you could be devoting your resources to do somthing acctually useful. Because as of now, it's more of an annoyance than anything. And if its that important of an issue, don't play the game, easy fix.

Also I think most of the complaints are coming from the people who mostly play a-type

Edited by OdinTheWise, April 26 2013 - 08:23 PM.