89 replies to this topic

[Beefsweat]

waftycrank, on April 22 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Shouldn't be sticky at all.  Not only worst kind of auto-aim.  Also worst kind of auto-aim magic beam weapon.  Detest such dumbing down of game mechanics.  Almost embarrassing.

The baseless, anecdotal complaints of the majority of this forum are much more embarrassing.

[deusex2]

Few things to consider for all the nerfaholics out there:

1) Repair torch does has rapid heat generation. It's so rapid, that Tech overheats in mere seconds if he uses both primary and secondary weapons. Hence, practically, Tech is forced to use repair torch only if he wishes to heal.

2)Self-Healing is a feature and it's there to stay, because Tech is tethered to it's target and has a very limited space for maneuvers. Also, Raider and all other burst oriented builds can still take down the Tech fairly easy, if not in one alpha strike. Also, when Tech heals either ally or himself, the repair torch still generates heat, for both(it seems) if both require repair.

3) If you despise "auto-aim" deconstructor beam, do bare in mind that Technician's weapons are all exclusively sustained damage, which is piss poor week when compared to all other combos AND it has an even shorter range than MIRV. However if you want to see it go so badly-no problem! Let's turn it into pin-point laser/plasma bolt, burst weapon. Kinda like HEAT, but with harder damage on direct hit and no aoe.

[deidarall]

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1) Repair torch does has rapid heat generation. It's so rapid, that Tech overheats in mere seconds if he uses both primary and secondary weapons. Hence, practically, Tech is forced to use repair torch only if he wishes to heal.

Yep I wonder how many of you have played tech but playing it only for a while made me realize that the heat gen on these weps is pretty comparatively high and you run a really high risk of overheat while healing a ally that takes quite a bit of damage in other word there is a very clear limit on how much damage the tech can heal and as we start to learn when techs overheat we will play to take advantage of this.

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2)Self-Healing is a feature and it's there to stay, because Tech is tethered to it's target and has a very limited space for maneuvers. Also, Raider and all other burst oriented builds can still take down the Tech fairly easy, if not in one alpha strike. Also, when Tech heals either ally or himself, the repair torch still generates heat, for both(it seems) if both require repair.

Techs do die fairly often cause they become a target.

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[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Yes, because if you kill the person who actually has the guns that are shooting you, the Tech usually runs away or is then easily dealt with. if you concentrate on the tech you end up dead because it is constantly self healing + the person they are healing it also shooting you.[/font]

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I also had very little back up most of the time as there was only one Tech on our team.

This is not a issue with tech.

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- it should not be able to just stand next to another mech on the front line of a fight and kepp them + itself alive by holding down the heal button. This is what is wrong with the Tech and why it needs to be fixed & quickly.

I have yet to see a GOOd tech do this and I have yet to see a BAD tech live in a game with GOOD players live while doing this for more than a second... Instead I act as the cover.

Edited by deidarall, April 23 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[ShadowWarg]

I think the vamp beam is cool when you are attacking, but why should you gain health while you are healing someone else_ (logically speaking that is..... lol video game logic.)

Edited by ShadowWarg, April 23 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[[HWK]Vanashinkaku]

Just pointing something out that I see commonly, you do realize that healing a target who is 100%, but healing yourself, generates the same amount of heat it would for a normal heal, but only around 20% of the actual heal to yourself.  If anything a technician is seriously hurting himself at times by doing this.  A good tech will not do this all the time and knows when to peel for a repair bot.

When it comes to tethering, we've tried many many forms of tethering (even no tethering at all!) and even though yes, we can balance this further and will in the future, the fact that its sticky will not change.  Mechs are much too agile/mobile to heal with a skill shot, infact, it's impossible and just not fun, which is why we added the tethering in and decided on keeping it that way.

Technicians are actually heat monsters, I'm not sure where people get they idea that they are not.  They probably haven't played the tech enough, or at all, to realize a tech over-heats more than most other mechs.  I like to consider myself one of the top technician pilots out there right now, and internally I'm definitely in the top two.  I constantly lose friendlies in mid-long term engagements due to over-heating up to 5 times in the fight.  Heat may seem some bumps, but if it does, it wont be much if at all.

We're watching the state of the technician and will be balancing him accordingly, but huge nerfs or making him offensive is not something I think we have in mind for him in the near or even distant future.

[Kanash]

I so agree with the post above. When I first started to use the tech, I used up all the remaining fire extinguishers I had. The overheat was bad to start with. Added a heat sink to help which does a bit. I find that getting kills are hard as the damage is very low given out even with both ray and gun at the same time. This is a support mech only, to keep your other in battle for longer. Assists are your main points. Stay behind and heal from a safe point. As to the complaints playing as and against the Tech find no problem at all. Yes it is a totally different way to play now, which adds spice to the game mix. The healing I find has been slow when doing it to yourself and find being targeted more anyway.

[Skullcamp]

Heat generation mechanics will bring the Tech in line with the old playstyle and make self repair at least as useful is it used to be. Sustained healing is always a bad Idea, I think they are just testing the waters with the whole uber tech healzorz idea because we are still in beta. It's always better to release something overpowered and see how it performs over a span of 1-2 weeks and make adjustments accordingly based on game and statistical data charts.

Edited by Skullcamp, April 23 2013 - 02:14 PM.

[SenecaRaine]

I do think that assist scores need to be adjusted for healers (maybe not entirely halved, but lowered at least), but the rest of the TC suggestions are just going to break the class entirely, and honestly sound like it comes from someone who hasn't even tried the class.

If you attack and heal (or vampire) at the same time, you already overheat ridiculously fast.  The healing itself causes overheats to happen in the mech extremely often, and if you're not running into this in mechs you're facing off against it's because they're using the overheat-removal item ridiculously often.

Techs are fine (in gameplay) just as they are, they cannot outheal the damage of 2 mechs on one target, hell, can't even keep up with one good dps on a stationary target.  People are jumping the gun because they thought the game was going to be designed like LoL with almost no healing whatsoever, as opposed to Hawken being it's own game.  It's going to have support mechs, otherwise it's a boring mesh of which mech is currently OP in damage/defense at the given time.  

That may come off like I'm trying to start something, but I'm really not trying to, and probably won't even give this thread another look.  I just wanted to put my voice towards the people who enjoy the Tech, and look forward to what else Hawken has in store in the future.

[Dinre]

Personally, I've found the technician to be quite a difficult class when trying to help in a brawl.  With most mechs, I can back up a bit and choose the right time to rush in or tag out, but the short range for the repair torch forces me to move up farther to really contribute.  This close range makes even the current tethering sometimes feel "non-sticky", because dodges can make it quite difficult to keep your target.

I like it this way, because close quarters combat with a technician feels a bit phrenetic and more exciting than playing medic in a lot of shooters.  Of course, you can always just hang back and set up a medic tent at the back of AA, but moving forward into the brawl is where the excitement is for me.  Unfortunately, most games I've been in recently have had an overabundance of technicians, so I've had to choose other classes to play.  I'm looking forward to the technician excitement dying down, so I can get more playtime with it.

[MasterFALE]

Right:

Point 3) For sure, no self heals off full health team mates.

I would add, no multi-Tech on a single target.

[Handsome_Jack]

I agree with the OP. The Technican is an overpowered mess. All of those changes need to be implemented.

[OdinTheWise]

The tech is not OP, stop complaining and just deal with it people. The tech doesn't really work well if there is no communication. The tech has to be your eyes and ears, calling out targets or when to back out of battle. This is why tech doesn't do well or too well in pub matches. There is always an exception to the rule. There are some exceptional techies out there that can read just about any situation and adapt without the need to communicate, but these pilots are few. But when you do have them, they offtain carry the team.

[Beemann]

[HWK]Vanashinkaku, on April 23 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Just pointing something out that I see commonly, you do realize that healing a target who is 100%, but healing yourself, generates the same amount of heat it would for a normal heal, but only around 20% of the actual heal to yourself.  If anything a technician is seriously hurting himself at times by doing this.  A good tech will not do this all the time and knows when to peel for a repair bot.

It doesn't really change the fact that you always have access to self healing.

[HWK]Vanashinkaku, on April 23 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

When it comes to tethering, we've tried many many forms of tethering (even no tethering at all!) and even though yes, we can balance this further and will in the future, the fact that its sticky will not change.  Mechs are much too agile/mobile to heal with a skill shot, infact, it's impossible and just not fun, which is why we added the tethering in and decided on keeping it that way.

You say this, and yet Firefall has managed to have skill centric healing. This also comes with the rather concerning similarity to HiRez' "our internal testers didn't like proper skiing physics" shenanigans
Have you tried Firefall out_ The game has full Z axis movement, and heals are mostly restricted to abilities. There is one method of healing outside of that, and that involves a secondary fire HoT that stops if the target is hit, and uses an obscene amount of ammo (In Firefall's terms, a Biotech or Dragonfly primary fire is 1 ammo, the Biotech's shotgun blast is 5 ammo, and the Dragonfly's healing alt fire is 20 ammo)
Abilities are all some level of skill shot, whether that be an AOE ability that has to directly hit or be midair detonated (basically a giant bouncing ball of life), a time based small area burst heal (that the healer itself can benefit from, unlike the healing ball)  or a much easier to use and much easier to negate short-range wave of healing that has a HoT that also stops when the target is hit.

[HWK]Vanashinkaku, on April 23 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Technicians are actually heat monsters, I'm not sure where people get they idea that they are not.  They probably haven't played the tech enough, or at all, to realize a tech over-heats more than most other mechs.  I like to consider myself one of the top technician pilots out there right now, and internally I'm definitely in the top two.  I constantly lose friendlies in mid-long term engagements due to over-heating up to 5 times in the fight.  Heat may seem some bumps, but if it does, it wont be much if at all.

We're watching the state of the technician and will be balancing him accordingly, but huge nerfs or making him offensive is not something I think we have in mind for him in the near or even distant future.

I haven't run into anyone yet who has had any issues with the heat levels on the technician. What's worse, the people in question haven't played a game like GA where they'd already pick up better management skill than the technician requires (because decent movement and gun-centric heals are tied to the same resource). I'm not trying to badmouth you or anything, but just because you lose heal targets doesn't mean other people do as well. I would think that the reason for allowing players into beta tests, in addition to stress testing and the like, is to examine the mechs you've created in situations outside your personal experience or internal tests. I would, in no way, expect the internal testing team, to be the top pilots or to find all of the bugs, and on the flip side of that I find it somewhat unreasonable that you've determined that certain things are not possible based on those experiences alone. It has nothing to do with the quality of the testing team and everything to do with the limitations of having a small sample size to draw from

Additionally, I would be tremendously disappointed if you just slapped huge nerfs on the Technician. What it needs, ultimately, is a rework. Less constantly available heals, more well thought out bursts of assistance

[OdinTheWise]

Beemann, on April 25 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

[HWK]Vanashinkaku, on April 23 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Just pointing something out that I see commonly, you do realize that healing a target who is 100%, but healing yourself, generates the same amount of heat it would for a normal heal, but only around 20% of the actual heal to yourself.  If anything a technician is seriously hurting himself at times by doing this.  A good tech will not do this all the time and knows when to peel for a repair bot.

It doesn't really change the fact that you always have access to self healing.

[HWK]Vanashinkaku, on April 23 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

When it comes to tethering, we've tried many many forms of tethering (even no tethering at all!) and even though yes, we can balance this further and will in the future, the fact that its sticky will not change.  Mechs are much too agile/mobile to heal with a skill shot, infact, it's impossible and just not fun, which is why we added the tethering in and decided on keeping it that way.

You say this, and yet Firefall has managed to have skill centric healing. This also comes with the rather concerning similarity to HiRez' "our internal testers didn't like proper skiing physics" shenanigans
Have you tried Firefall out_ The game has full Z axis movement, and heals are mostly restricted to abilities. There is one method of healing outside of that, and that involves a secondary fire HoT that stops if the target is hit, and uses an obscene amount of ammo (In Firefall's terms, a Biotech or Dragonfly primary fire is 1 ammo, the Biotech's shotgun blast is 5 ammo, and the Dragonfly's healing alt fire is 20 ammo)
Abilities are all some level of skill shot, whether that be an AOE ability that has to directly hit or be midair detonated (basically a giant bouncing ball of life), a time based small area burst heal (that the healer itself can benefit from, unlike the healing ball)  or a much easier to use and much easier to negate short-range wave of healing that has a HoT that also stops when the target is hit.

[HWK]Vanashinkaku, on April 23 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Technicians are actually heat monsters, I'm not sure where people get they idea that they are not.  They probably haven't played the tech enough, or at all, to realize a tech over-heats more than most other mechs.  I like to consider myself one of the top technician pilots out there right now, and internally I'm definitely in the top two.  I constantly lose friendlies in mid-long term engagements due to over-heating up to 5 times in the fight.  Heat may seem some bumps, but if it does, it wont be much if at all.

We're watching the state of the technician and will be balancing him accordingly, but huge nerfs or making him offensive is not something I think we have in mind for him in the near or even distant future.

I haven't run into anyone yet who has had any issues with the heat levels on the technician. What's worse, the people in question haven't played a game like GA where they'd already pick up better management skill than the technician requires (because decent movement and gun-centric heals are tied to the same resource). I'm not trying to badmouth you or anything, but just because you lose heal targets doesn't mean other people do as well. I would think that the reason for allowing players into beta tests, in addition to stress testing and the like, is to examine the mechs you've created in situations outside your personal experience or internal tests. I would, in no way, expect the internal testing team, to be the top pilots or to find all of the bugs, and on the flip side of that I find it somewhat unreasonable that you've determined that certain things are not possible based on those experiences alone. It has nothing to do with the quality of the testing team and everything to do with the limitations of having a small sample size to draw from

Additionally, I would be tremendously disappointed if you just slapped huge nerfs on the Technician. What it needs, ultimately, is a rework. Less constantly available heals, more well thought out bursts of assistance

If you made the heals more skill based, it would take the fun out of the mech. Honestly, it's fine as is. If you look at TF2, the medic has been around since the beginning. No one complained. If the tech was in the game since the beginning, this wouldn't be an issue

[Sylhiri]

OdinTheWise, on April 25 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

If you made the heals more skill based, it would take the fun out of the mech. Honestly, it's fine as is. If you look at TF2, the medic has been around since the beginning. No one complained. If the tech was in the game since the beginning, this wouldn't be an issue.

I'm sure it's fun for the tech, not much for anyone else. Can't you one shot the medic in TF2_ I haven't played it but that's what I heard.

[Beemann]

OdinTheWise, on April 25 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

If you made the heals more skill based, it would take the fun out of the mech. Honestly, it's fine as is. If you look at TF2, the medic has been around since the beginning. No one complained. If the tech was in the game since the beginning, this wouldn't be an issue

Except they don't. Healbeam medics in Firefall were tremendously dull, and the Biotech was vastly superior in terms of playability, class balance and skill curve. What's hilarious is that the technician is almost a carbon copy of the Firefall Medic, which was deemed both by the devs and the competitive community to be a huge mistake.
As for TF2, the Medic HAS been problematic. Comp play revolves around it, and outside of quad airshotting ubertargets away from anything relevant, the way to counter uber is with more uber. Medics are always restricted in high end play

[OdinTheWise]

As they will be most likely in hawken as well. At least there is no über charge in hawken the makes you compleatly invincible. And if you wanted to, you could even bar techies from comp play in certain events

I honestly think the tech is mostly just a fad right now because its new

Edited by OdinTheWise, April 25 2013 - 09:53 AM.

[Beemann]

OdinTheWise, on April 25 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

As they will be most likely in hawken as well. At least there is no über charge in hawken the makes you compleatly invincible. And if you wanted to, you could even bar techies from comp play in certain events

So you admit that they're problematic, but refuse to admit that that necessitates a change_ Additionally, we don't want to get into the habit of banning the fuzzy bunny out of everything. Had we been able to, we wouldn't have banned anything for the Post Apoc tourney, However it wasn't the case whatsoever

[OdinTheWise]

I don't think it's a problem. I meant was that if people think its a problem. I have no problem with it.

[Akaon]

KaszaWspraju, on April 21 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

1. Rapid heat generation on the Repair torch - ok. slightly increase
2. Remove self healing feature totally - no, maybe slightly reduce.
3. Techs can currently 'heal' someone who is at 100% health, and as a result they also self heal which negates the need to stop and use the Repair drone - yes, Technician should not gained anything when he cure mech up to 100% HP.

Agree with you on 1 and 2. 3 However, it generates heat, and instead of healing 2 mechs, you just heal yourself, meaning its quite inefficient plus when your target starts taking damage, you already built up some heat, meaning you can then, in turn, heal your target for less health. I think this pretty much balances itself out.