65 replies to this topic

[Beemann]

Subject9x, on May 07 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

A class behave like someone in quake

Nope
A classes move pretty damned slow, especially when you compare them to a fast paced game like Quake. They also don't have the same range or freedom of movement, and any bursts of speed are punctuated with downtime'
If A mechs moved half as well as Quake players, the amount of QQ on the forums would be enough to flood most of North America

Here's some quake for context
http://youtu.be/i77n9zMkU3c


Additionally, concerning the walking tanks comment... mechwarrior online doesn't seem to think that B and C mech speed is where it's at
http://youtu.be/olJGaX4Nzbw
The Jenner can really move when it wants to. If Hawken is supposed to be in that middle ground between mech sim and FPS, shouldn't we be more mobile than the mechwarrior mechs_
Additionally, B mechs don't really move that much sloiwer than A's. C's are the ones who move considerably slower, with their boost speed just barely beating an unspec'd A mech's run speed... and unfortunately that setup just isn't really good enough in a game where everyone else has high burst and can pop in and out of cover in a heartbeat... especially when almost every C mech gun is projectile and the ones that aren't are fuzzy bunny or close range.

[Subject9x]

Beemann, on May 08 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Nope
A classes move pretty damned slow, especially when you compare them to a fast paced game like Quake. They also don't have the same range or freedom of movement, and any bursts of speed are punctuated with downtime'
If A mechs moved half as well as Quake players, the amount of QQ on the forums would be enough to flood most of North America

in context of hawken, A class moves more like (not 100% the same) and in this game, that makes a difference. A classes gain the initiative all the time because of their movement profile. All the downtime in the world doesn't matter when an A class can make sure that 'downtime' is safely behind cover ever time.

Beemann, on May 08 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Here's some quake for context
http://youtu.be/i77n9zMkU3c

and which Class of mech comes closest to this_ A Class.

Beemann, on May 08 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Additionally, concerning the walking tanks comment... mechwarrior online doesn't seem to think that B and C mech speed is where it's at
http://youtu.be/olJGaX4Nzbw
The Jenner can really move when it wants to. If Hawken is supposed to be in that middle ground between mech sim and FPS, shouldn't we be more mobile than the mechwarrior mechs_

I completely agree with the jenner assessment. MWO is deluding itself thinking that its any sort of
'sim.' Things like perfect movement and perfect accuracy with light mechs in MWO make them over the
top. I also think Hawken mechs should be more mobile than Mechwarrior mechs, but all of them should, not just one class out of 3.

Beemann, on May 08 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Additionally, B mechs don't really move that much sloiwer than A's. C's are the ones who move considerably slower, with their boost speed just barely beating an unspec'd A mech's run speed... and unfortunately that setup just isn't really good enough in a game where everyone else has high burst and can pop in and out of cover in a heartbeat... especially when almost every C mech gun is projectile and the ones that aren't are fuzzy bunny or close range.

I have an SS, so I can agree with B class movement. However a spec'd A class still outperforms all other classes at movement. I'm ok with this if it came with some sort of lower health, like the Jenner in MWO, the A class is way too survivable. As for C's...well you reinforced my point to a degree, that there is no reason to take any other class except an A. Generally leading the every game's scorecard are A classes. I'm actually shokcked when something other than an A class takes first or second.

In short A class controls remove most of the delay of the player's mouse compared to other classes. Why play a class with slower controls when there is no reason to play the mech class that gives you the best control feedback_

Edited by Subject9x, May 08 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Beemann]

Subject9x, on May 08 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

in context of hawken, A class moves more like (not 100% the same) and in this game, that makes a difference. A classes gain the initiative all the time because of their movement profile. All the downtime in the world doesn't matter when an A class can make sure that 'downtime' is safely behind
cover ever time.

Except it's still a comparison that falls flat. If I'm the best out of my friends I'm not going to suddenly make a comparison to Wayne Gretzky. A classes move like B classes, but about 5m/s faster and with a slightly shorter dodge cooldown. You're comparing them to something that works in an entirely different league because of a small numbers difference

Subject9x, on May 08 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

I completely agree with the jenner assessment. MWO is deluding itself thinking that its any sort of
'sim.' Things like perfect movement and perfect accuracy with light mechs in MWO make them over the
top. I also think Hawken mechs should be more mobile than Mechwarrior mechs, but all of them should, not just one class out of 3.

I dont know that I'd call the movement perfect, and aside from slight variation from running, what's going to cause any kind of recoil_ You've got lasers, which don't cause kickback. You've got missiles, which are self targeted. You've got guns outside of that, but again they have to provide enough recoil that the gigantic humanoid tank they're strapped to has to move in such a way that the gun can't be in the same spot when the next shot is ready
Additionally, I think you underestimate the speed of tanks. You're not going to be drag racing with them or anything, but right now we can pull off 60-80 depending on whether or not it's tracked. I can only imagine we'd be able to go at least that fast in the far future where we've weaponized lasers and conquered other planets... and if we're not going with what's feasible and handwaving a few things then we're dealing with in-universe stuff, which can be whatever it wants.

Subject9x, on May 08 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

I have an SS, so I can agree with B class movement. However a spec'd A class still outperforms all other classes at movement. I'm ok with this if it came with some sort of lower health, like the Jenner in MWO, the A class is way too survivable. As for C's...well you reinforced my point to a degree, that there is no reason to take any other class except an A. Generally leading the every game's scorecard are A classes. I'm actually shokcked when something other than an A class takes first or second.

A spec'd B will still keep pace as long as you're not putting your points into offensive or something. C mechs are just kinda ridiculous
It's worth noting as well that the Sharpshooter can kill an A mech in about 1.1 seconds with PS on and with a few points put into damage. The first slug+sabot volley alerts them of your presence, and the second slug kills them. The Raider on the other hand, will deal about 330 damage with the charged bolt and MIRV, meaning you can either detonate them to death, hit them with a few more bolt hits, or use the KLA nade to finish them off as they book it outta there. Alternatively, the EOC and MIRV dish out about 390, which means with explosive munitions and another EOC volley (uncharged) you should be good to go.
So while pub matches will often end with A's at the top (both because they're fairly easy for newbies to pick up, and because they've just always been popular... possibly because of the aforementioned learning curve), B mechs are actually kinda just better. They can't be killed in a 3 shot combo like an A mech can, they move just about as fast and they have the best speed:health tradeoff available... and then on top of that they have the Raider and Sharpshooter

Subject9x, on May 08 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

In short A class controls remove most of the delay of the player's mouse compared to other classes. Why play a class with slower controls when there is no reason to play the mech class that gives you the best control feedback_

A classes have the same turn rate cap AFAIK, the only difference between an A and a B is a handful of m/s and less than a second of dodge cooldown and B mechs get the highest burst in the game and 175 health as a tradeoff

[Preternatural]

The_Eldritch_Abomination, on May 04 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

But out of all seriousness, the Infiltrator is not OP. What you see there is the result of it being placed on the test drive roster, which explains the sudden increase of them in-game, not to mention, some of those players have been playing for quite awhile.

And I eat Infiltrators for Breakfast. Just light 'em up with the good 'ol EOC and Hellfires (Or any weapon for that fact), and they'll be crying

'MEDIC!'

Until I sneak up on that fat rooster you call a "mech" and paint you with some EOC and Grenades. You won't even see me coming.

[LU0P10]

BurnsHot, on May 05 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Can someone post the hard numbers on the amount of damage these weapons put out or a link to where we can find them all in one place or should we wait for the next Patch to hit to compare damage and balance of weapons...._

http://hawkenwiki.net/wiki/Weapon

Not sure if it's a thoroughly updated but...

[SweetAnubis]

i wouldnt say inf are OP... personaly i love my inf simply because its a great challenge. It takes thought to use and skill and speed. If i'm not carefull i get slaughtered faster than i can say 'heal me up scotty', on the other hand if i realy focus yes i can mop the floor with people but it is by no means easy. On the flip side i can go use my rocketeer and pretty much mop the floor with people just sitting in a corner firing rockets.

[Pastorius]

OP_ No but they are awesome. It takes a long time to be able to play one with any degree of success. I spent many an hour getting shot to pieces before I started, well, "winning". They are a great tool for MA as the cloak serves well for approaching an occupied silo un-noticed. However, this is more to do with the cloak taking you off the radar rather than just being semi invisible (Most good players can easily see a cloaked infiltrator in a straight one on one). The grenade launcher is only effective when you learn how to detonate accurately and the EOC is incredibly difficult to master (and for better pilots than me perhaps). So as I said, no it is not OP but as most people are saying in this thread, in the hands of a good pilot it can be devastating, especially to the C Classes.

I love my infiltrator. It's name is Burnard

[Meraple]

I don't know about you people, but I find the Inf the easiest-to-play class so far. :v
I tried the Scout, Reaper, Rocketeer, Bruiser and Raider and I just suck with them.

It took me about 2 matches to get the hang of this thing with the AR though. ._.

In the lower-MMR rooms (about 1700) it's just autoplay for me, and in the 2000+ rooms it's challenging but fun.
Maybe it's just my playstyle, but I'd say it's a bit.. too strong.

[M4st0d0n]

Inf no OP, Look amazing skillz I have. Me have to lead the target with EOC pukes. Like direct TOW rocket damage, except with moar pukes and you stick finger a bit longer, that needs loads of skillz. And its faster rate of fire and projektile speed. And I can go invisible like ninja if I screwed up a bit. Pure skillz robot!

[Sadukar]

I am using the infl with decent results, EOC + HE + grenade is heavy punch for peekaboo, and the fact it drops you off the radar helps a lot OP _ well there are one too many threads on this one, I enjoy the game, I play most of the mechs ... I have fun. I got used to the eoc grenade mechanichs and I kinda stuck with the infl more than the damage, the fire rate and projectile behaviour are for me the factors that made me stick with it.
+ I am lazy to take a mech from scratch now, got several to 25 (6 i think )

[Aregon]

In my personal opinion I think the Infiltrator isn`t directly OP, but if the pilot who drives it got skills, I will most likely rage and end up tracking him and use the bruiser against him, screaming: " DIE MOTHA F##KA, DIIIEE!"

[Modius]

I read an interesting passage about saltwater crocodiles recently.

It covered, and I'm paraphrasing, intimidation using sheer size or characteristics. A saltwater crocodile will stay motionless just at the water surface, using it's vacant unblinking stare to intimidate any who dare enter it's territory. Conversely, it can also dive under the water in under a second and appear 15 feet away with a completely different temperament, including side-strafing, slapping it's tail against the water and snapping it's jaws to create a sharp cracking sound.

If you compare that with another creature, say a defensive armadillo which among a small arsenal of weapons uses just it's armoured body, there are many different ways to win a skirmish or encounter. It's fight or flight in action.

My point (wow you read this far_!) I'm increasingly beginning to think that nothing is OP in Hawken, no mech is better than the other, it's how each characteristic is exploited. As some of you have said, Infiltrator is amazing, but only in the right hands. Same goes for every other mech, and I mean every other because at one time or another, I have been dominated by every possible mech and weapon load-out possible. It comes down to a core understanding that this game was built, some may disagree, with depth and intelligence at the fulcrum of it's design. It's not Call of Duty, where a string of questionable perks and upgrades meander down into a choice of 3 weapons to use online. Adhesive wanted each mech to have personality, and maybe you should consider which mech suits your own temperament. It's a democracy of design that ultimately, Adhesive get the final say in and we are the window-lickers.

Finally, even if you found this reply contentious and pointless, you learned a little about saltwater crocodiles which I <3<3<3 lots.

[Cyclonus]

M4st0d0n, on July 24 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

Inf no OP, Look amazing skillz I have. Me have to lead the target with EOC pukes. Like direct TOW rocket damage, except with moar pukes and you stick finger a bit longer, that needs loads of skillz. And its faster rate of fire and projektile speed. And I can go invisible like ninja if I screwed up a bit. Pure skillz robot!

oh, you clever.

[CycloneSeriesMecha]

It takes skill most of you are funny such bull, let me see it takes skill, really fast mech same weapons as a big mech same power were is the skill there seems more  like a crutch mech to me nub mech, most of you are just worried it's going to get it's weapons nerfed which it should.. make this simple big mechs powerfull weapons and armor but real slow little mechs some armor real fast half the weapons power...    I play this game all the time and  more and more people just playing reaper and scout sometimes the whole team

[Sadhana]

Infiltrators reward smart, tactical gameplay with success. That, or high collateral damage to the other side. They're mobile, can play as offensive or supportive mechs, or can stay with their conceptual model and focus on stealth, confusion and wreaking havoc. I like those last three in particular, since I have most fun and success when sneaking up on mechs or groups and simply causing a good bit of destruction.

Infiltrators make superb skirmishers. Unfortunately, they lack the armor to stay useful in open combat. They also generally lack long range capabilities. Though, that's somewhat mitigated once you learn the trajectory of the grenade launcher and fire upwards accordingly. They aren't meant to play fair by any means, so I can see that gaining some manner of stigma. They're stealth oriented, so it should be expected they'll finish of weakened mechs or pick off enemy snipers, or generally cause chaos amongst enemy Type-Bs.

Also, I'm very proud of myself:



It was a good match. Despite me being a dirty fighter.

[BuffMyRadius]

The infiltrator has a very set role in what it is good for and what is good against it. It has lots of midrange punch and is great for flanking and skirmishing. The inf was my first level 25 mech and I love it, but when someone is good with the scout I basically have to trade out or I get owned in the face.

[Bazookagofer]

Scout i think is more OP. Played the scout and boy ... didnt play it for 3 or 4 months and it was easy peasy lemon squeezy.

[Epsilone]

Are they OP_ Come on, they are great if you're great. The Grenades hit a lot, with high damage, and yes you can go 'invisible', but
-You can still see through cloak
-grenades move damn slowly
-very fragile
-still slower than the scout
-apart from AR its weapons are difficult to master

However played correctly the infiltrator is monstrously good.

[SandSpider]

This is one of those old posts that doesn't apply any more and probably should be closed. Just saying.