72 replies to this topic

[Leonhardt]

FakeName, on July 13 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

With cuddling I mean "not dangerous anymore"

120 for a primary is not much, Look at the Point-D Vulcan around 100 Damager per second.
Look at the current DPS of the EOC: 60, reduce this for 33,33% DPS:40 (with a direct hit) Rate of fire 0.67 (0.33 charged)

Try to play with the EOC and hit every 6 pucks every time. It won't happen so reduce some damage from the EOC. maybe 25% or even 33,33% However, the EOC will not be the weapon anymore as it is now, if you wanna nerf it that hard again. The EOC is and shall pelase stay the best burst weapon ingame.

Quote

• The Repeater has the highest initial burst of any primary weapon assuming a full charge and direct hits with every round.

[Source: Hawken wiki]

PS: some people read it like this: "The Repeater has the highest initial burst of any primary weapon assuming a full charge and direct hits with every round"

Why you even wanna nerf it_ it is not even close overpowered. The Flak is, but you already aggreed on that.

DPS arguments about burst weapons are not only weak, but inapplicable in this situation since the EOC with the 5 damage per puck reduction could still output 20 more damage than the Vulcan in less than a second.

[FakeName]

Leonhardt, on July 13 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

DPS arguments about burst weapons are not only weak, but inapplicable in this situation since the EOC with the 5 damage per puck reduction could still output 20 more damage than the Vulcan in less than a second.

It already got nerfed, it does not need any more nerf

120 damage for a fully  charged EOC, that's the same as The Flak does, let's compare:

EOC:
- 6 pucks (can be dodged easily)
- needs to be charged
- chargeing takes around 2-3 seconds (don't know exactly)
- mines do less damage
- low rate of fire

Flak:
- one shot
- does not need to be charged
- [empty]
- no mines, just direct hit
- medium - high rate of fire

HEAT:
- one shot
- needs to be charged
- needs around 1 second to be charged
- does the same damage if hit on the ground (if the enemy mech is nearby ofcourse)
- medium - high rate of fire

Conclusion: You would kill the legandary burst weapon in this game and make every other weapon better, even the AR.
May I remind you, burst weapons have dmg in a short time but less damge OVER TIME. That means, they deal massive damage (I reapeat massive!) in a very short period of time but have to recover over a longer period of time. That's how burst weapons work.
Sustained weapons for wich DPS is more important deal damage over time and are more dangerous the longer the enemy mech is hit by sustained weapons.

[Leonhardt]

FakeName, on July 13 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Conclusion: You would kill the legandary burst weapon in this game and make every other weapon better, even the AR.
May I remind you, burst weapons have dmg in a short time but less damge OVER TIME. That means, they deal massive damage (I reapeat massive!) in a very short period of time but have to recover over a longer period of time. That's how burst weapons work.
Sustained weapons for wich DPS is more important deal damage over time and are more dangerous the longer the enemy mech is hit by sustained weapons.

Do you sit there and let the DPS user hit you constantly_ I mean... what is going on here did I miss the memo that I should stand out in the open and let DPS users hit me constantly_ This argument is ridiculous! I know how burst weapons work and I know how DPS weapons work. Hell I even know how hit scan weapons work and we all know how hard those are to use (sarcasm).

There are many problems with what you are saying so I am just going to list them because typing out a cohesive paragraph only to have it skipped over is just a waste.

1.) Many burst weapons currently have competitive DPS to DPS weapons.
2.) EOC charging doesn't take very long.
3.) EOC gains damage per puck so charging is always useful (not the case on the HEAT).
4.) Peek-a-boo tactics (need I say more_)
5.) We already talked about how the flak does a little more damage then it should (fall off rate is good though).
6.) Mines do less damage because of the raider patch (if you weren't there you missed out on EOC pucks covering the floor everywhere you step)
7.) 120 damage from a fully charged EOC would still be more than the HEAT and its not that hard to hit with since as you already pointed out the game has been slowed down.
8.) PLEASE DON'T HUG EOC RAIDERS! Denying them LoS is useful but hugging them... thats just asking for some MIRV to the face. Need I remind you that with direct hits MIRV and EOC do not have splash damage so hugging them means easy free damage for them.

[FakeName]

Ofcours Not, I will look for a cover position but if no cover is there I will enter a fight even without cover.

1. True story
2. Yes it does, atleast longer than the HEAT.
3. Did I miss something_ do you mean the damage per puck (mines + direct hit) goes from 30 to for example 40_ If so, I didn't know.
4. So_
5. Let's don't talk about the Flak anymore since it is a different weapon type (shotgun).
6. EOC spam is still not rarely (I don't really mind if they spam the EOC though)
7. The game was slowed down, but don't forget the dodging manouvers
8. Yes you can hug raiders with projectile weapons, go very close so they can't fire their EOC unless they want to hit themselves

[Rahh_Vende]

Leonhardt, on July 13 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

8.) PLEASE DON'T HUG EOC RAIDERS! Denying them LoS is useful but hugging them... thats just asking for some MIRV to the face. Need I remind you that with direct hits MIRV and EOC do not have splash damage so hugging them means easy free damage for them.

Yeah, this should kinda go without saying... But EOC does splash damage to self on direct hits if you're rubbing chassis with the enemy. Or my version of Hawken is bugged somehow,

[FakeName]

- Sorry, double post -

Edited by FakeName, July 13 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[FakeName]

Rahh_Vende, on July 13 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on July 13 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

8.) PLEASE DON'T HUG EOC RAIDERS! Denying them LoS is useful but hugging them... thats just asking for some MIRV to the face. Need I remind you that with direct hits MIRV and EOC do not have splash damage so hugging them means easy free damage for them.

Yeah, this should kinda go without saying... But EOC does splash damage to self on direct hits if you're rubbing chassis with the enemy. Or my version of Hawken is bugged somehow,

No, your Hawken version is not bugged. EOC deals damage to yourself if you are to close to an enemy mech.

Edited by FakeName, July 13 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Leonhardt]

Rahh_Vende, on July 13 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on July 13 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

8.) PLEASE DON'T HUG EOC RAIDERS! Denying them LoS is useful but hugging them... thats just asking for some MIRV to the face. Need I remind you that with direct hits MIRV and EOC do not have splash damage so hugging them means easy free damage for them.

Yeah, this should kinda go without saying... But EOC does splash damage to self on direct hits if you're rubbing chassis with the enemy. Or my version of Hawken is bugged somehow,

Odd well maybe thats just me or the damage isn't enough that I notice. Since the shield meta I have had a lot of people hugging me in shields and with an EOC it just feels like free damage. At least compared to GL or TOW

Edited by Leonhardt, July 13 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Leonhardt]

FakeName, on July 13 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Ofcours Not, I will look for a cover position but if no cover is there I will enter a fight even without cover.

1. True story
2. Yes it does, atleast longer than the HEAT.
3. Did I miss something_ do you mean the damage per puck (mines + direct hit) goes from 30 to for example 40_ If so, I didn't know.
4. So_
5. Let's don't talk about the Flak anymore since it is a different weapon type (shotgun).
6. EOC spam is still not rarely (I don't really mind if they spam the EOC though)
7. The game was slowed down, but don't forget the dodging manouvers
8. Yes you can hug raiders with projectile weapons, go very close so they can't fire their EOC unless they want to hit themselves

Its clear to me that you have strong views about the EOC and burst weapons as a whole. I'll agree to respectively disagree here, but don't be surprised when EOC gets a slight damage nerf in some way. Its an undeniable fact that the EOC does more damage than some secondary weapons in the game. That alone is reason enough to lower the damage.

[FakeName]

Maybe you didn't noticed the damage because the enemy is hitting you too but the EOC does damage yourself, if the enemy is too close.

[Leonhardt]

FakeName, on July 13 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Maybe you didn't noticed the damage because the enemy is hitting you too but the EOC does damage yourself, if the enemy is too close.

That may be the case, but hugging a raider face to face is still laughable in my opinion.

[FakeName]

Leonhardt, on July 13 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Its clear to me that you have strong views about the EOC and burst weapons as a whole. I'll agree to respectively disagree here, but don't be surprised when EOC gets a slight damage nerf in some way. Its an undeniable fact that the EOC does more damage than some secondary weapons in the game. That alone is reason enough to lower the damage.

That's the point. In my opinion this is not a reason. But yes its undeniable that the EOC does more damage than some secondary weapons (for example the GL or the TOW). The hellfire Missiles or the KLA are still stronger than the EOC. (The Raides has a quite nice dmg output in combination with KLA and EOC) However, the EOC only deals more damage if every puck hits + direct hit, best case. Wich is not always the case, only in around 10-15% of the cases. if you just count the mines, then the EOC deals with 6 pucks 120 damage wich is not more damage than the GL or the TOW. Also The Flak series + T32-Bolt etc. deal more damage than some secondary weapons, do you want to nerf them as well_

Edited by FakeName, July 13 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[FakeName]

Leonhardt, on July 13 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

FakeName, on July 13 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Maybe you didn't noticed the damage because the enemy is hitting you too but the EOC does damage yourself, if the enemy is too close.

That may be the case, but hugging a raider face to face is still laughable in my opinion.

True

[Leonhardt]

FakeName, on July 13 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on July 13 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Its clear to me that you have strong views about the EOC and burst weapons as a whole. I'll agree to respectively disagree here, but don't be surprised when EOC gets a slight damage nerf in some way. Its an undeniable fact that the EOC does more damage than some secondary weapons in the game. That alone is reason enough to lower the damage.

That's the point. In my opinion this is not a reason. But yes its undeniable that the EOC does more damage than some secondary weapons (for example the GL or the TOW). The hellfire Missiles or the KLA are still stronger than the EOC. (The Raides has a quite nice dmg output in combination with KLA and EOC) However, the EOC only deals more damage if every puck hits + direct hit, best case. Wich is not always the case, only in around 10-15% of the cases. if you just count the mines, then the EOC deals with 6 pucks 120 damage wich is not more damage than the GL or the TOW. Also The Flak series + T32-Bolt etc. deal also more damage than some secondary weapons, do you want to nerf them as well_

The Flak and the T32 Bolt heavily fall off at range while the EOC does not. I would love to see where you get these statistics for "10-15% of cases." Like I said the EOC deserves to be rewarding, but when it does more damage than quite a few secondaries its a questionable damage output.

EDIT: Typo on my part replaced primaries with secondaries

Edited by Leonhardt, July 13 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[FakeName]

Leonhardt, on July 13 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

The Flak and the T32 Bolt heavily fall off at range while the EOC does not. I would love to see where you get these statistics for "10-15% of cases." Like I said the EOC deserves to be rewarding, but when it does more damage than primaries its a questionable damage output.

You mean secondaries.
I get these statistics in close combat, the most common battle in Hawken. And Inflitrator can stealth to hit one mech with everything he got but the enemy has to stand still. Even if not cloaked and you stand still, your fault, you deserve the damage (unless you are a poor C mech ). However, it's easy to hit a not moving mech with 6 pucks but its hard to do so in close combat (dodging every 1.25 seconds +/- depending on the mech class and upgrades).

Edit:

While the EOC does not fall off at range, it does in close combat!

Edited by FakeName, July 13 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[Leonhardt]

FakeName, on July 13 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on July 13 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

The Flak and the T32 Bolt heavily fall off at range while the EOC does not. I would love to see where you get these statistics for "10-15% of cases." Like I said the EOC deserves to be rewarding, but when it does more damage than primaries its a questionable damage output.

You mean secondaries.
I get these statistics in close combat, the most common battle in Hawken. And Inflitrator can stealth to hit one mech with everything he got but the enemy has to stand still. Even if not cloaked and you stand still, your fault, you deserve the damage (unless you are a poor C mech ). However, it's easy to hit a not moving mech with 6 pucks but its hard to do so in close combat (dodging every 1.25 seconds +/- depending on the mech class and upgrades).

Edit:

While the EOC does not fall off at range, it does in close combat!

So these are statistics of your play_ Also EOC damage does not fall off in close combat. It stays exactly the same.

[FakeName]

Leonhardt, on July 13 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

So these are statistics of your play_ Also EOC damage does not fall off in close combat. It stays exactly the same.

Yes it does simply because of the fact, not-every-puck-hits. And don't tell me your statistics will tell me, that you hit with 6 pucks around 50% or even 80%-100%.

[Leonhardt]

FakeName, on July 13 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on July 13 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

So these are statistics of your play_ Also EOC damage does not fall off in close combat. It stays exactly the same.

Yes it does simply because of the fact, not-every-puck-hits. And don't tell me your statistics will tell me, that you hit with 6 pucks around 50% or even 80%-100%.

... I am very confused as to where you are pulling these statistics. I can tell you how I feel I do with the EOC in close combat, but that is only an opinion and is not documented proof. Statistics are documented numerical data put together to make factual probabilities they are not opinion.

In my experience EOC can be used in close quarters if you know what you are doing. I don't know how many pucks I hit with on average, but I can say for sure that the damage output is ridiculous when combined with either my GL or MIRV.

EDIT- realized that math was for the mines. My b.

Edited by Leonhardt, July 13 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[FakeName]

Ridiculous you say_ Just normal I say. Yes maybe statistics is the wrong word, I didn't documented it but i can say for sure I will never hit an enemy mech in close combat with 6 pucks on DIRECT HITS. I shoot them to the ground so the enemy mech is walking on them (120 damage).
The 10%-15% are just because I flank still standing or repairing mechs.

[Leonhardt]

FakeName, on July 13 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Ridiculous you say_ Just normal I say. Yes maybe statistics is the wrong word, I didn't documented it but i can say for sure I will never hit an enemy mech in close combat with 6 pucks on DIRECT HITS. I shoot them to the ground so the enemy mech is walking on them (120 damage).
The 10%-15% are just because I flank still standing or repairing mechs.

If outputing 330 damage all at once is normal then I guess we should increase the damage output of other weapons to compensate since that is the norm. I mean in that instance heat scout only does 243 damage with direct hits so we should bring the damage up some. Don't you agree_