183 replies to this topic

[RedVan]

SmoothBoar, on July 31 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

I don't post much at all, and I've been on a break from playing for about a month or so now. I'm sure a few people have seen me in game, I normally play with SandwichCannon. We both check the forums pretty regularly(we don't post because a lack of updates just means a circle jerk) and watch the Cockpit, but ever since the announcement of the HAB its kinda turned us off a bit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not mad at being not chosen and I do think the HAB is a good thing. My issue with it is how it was implemented and the selection process. Lets just break it down.

1. Selection for the HAB.

In the cockpit Hughes said forum post count wouldn't be a factor in choosing this. When the details came up for what are the guidelines, the first thing is actively participating in the forums.

First off what does active even mean. Does it mean posting, cause it sure sounds like posting, or does it mean just logging in and visiting_ Does it mean posting in General, or does it mean I can go slow jerk in some stupid gif thread in off-topic or elswhere_ Having the selection criteria being based off anything forum wise is absurd. I don't post here much because, especially right now, there is nothing to talk about. We've been on the same build for a few months now, all the errors, nerfs, op stuff has been fleshed out. The Devs just sit in their cave of solitude and don't answer anyone.

2. The NDA.

Honestly I could over look the selection process if the NDA wasn't there. This game is in Open Beta and close to release, why have an NDA now__ We all get that a test server is just that, stuff that is being worked on and may or may not ever make it into the game. There is absolutely zero reason to hide things behind a curtain.

If I can't be in the HAB, I want to know what they are testing because I want to stay excited about this game. I've been with the game since Closed Alpha 2 and I want this game to do well. But, it is extremely difficult to stay motivated to even keep playing when there is nothing to talk about. If i'm not motivated to play then I cant keep my friends motivated and then no one is playing.

By removing the NDA it also allows you to get a better response on if the community actually wants what your developing. Its fine using the HAB for tweaking but not for testing reactions to new things which in its current state is what it will be used for.


I propose two different ways to make this better for everyone.

1. Simply remove the NDA and give us a list of who is in the HAB. The more open we are about what is happening with the game the better for all parties. Knowing who is in the HAB is strictly for being able to verify information.

or

2. Redo the sign up process. Make it so the only barring factor is time played. If you are under 40-50 hours then you are not eligible. Final Fantasy 11s test server has what I believe to be one of the best setups for a test server.

1. They have have set phases the test server is open. Several weeks before a patch hits they open it up.

2. They take a set amount of applicants per testing phase, Once the max number of participants are chosen, application for the test server is closed for that phase. If you don't meet the requirements then you cant even apply.

When a new phase is open, everyone resubmits applications.

3. There is no NDA.

This system allows for those that want to test, to test, and those that just want the information the ability to only get that. It also grants a larger pool of people to voice opinions even though you can keep it limited to a small cross section of the player base. This keeps things balanced for everyone in the spectrum of noob to hardcore, because what hardcore people thing to be balanced, isn't always actually balanced out.


These are just my rambling thoughts on the matter. I do hope that something changes regarding the HAB because its current implementation and the current lack of Dev interaction and secrecy regarding every little change is starting to become a large turn off to actually enjoying the game.

If it weren't under NDA and the public could see everything in HAB, it would just lead to a mess of crying about all kinds of fuzzy bunny. That's not a good way to test something.

[SmoothBoar]

Please explain why letting everyone see information is a bad thing___ Im not sure ive ever seen a test environment that had a limited amount of testers but the information was available to all end up being bad.

With no NDA people can calm any fears that crop from those not in the test.

Saying that people will get confused between what is emplemented and what isnt is easily solved and is actually not a very large issue anyway.

Having the data open to everyone is the best policy.

[N0stalgia]

I started this thread and heck.... I want to close it now. HAHA. Is there a way for me to do that_ Seriously_

We've vented enough frustration I think.

Edited by N0stalgia, July 31 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[Fantus_Longhorn]

N0stalgia, on July 31 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

I started this thread and heck.... I want to close it now. HAHA. Is there a way for me to do that_ Seriously_

Send a message to one of the Mods, that usually gets the desired result.

[Daronicus]

SmoothBoar, on July 31 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Please explain why letting everyone see information is a bad thing___ Im not sure ive ever seen a test environment that had a limited amount of testers but the information was available to all end up being bad.

With no NDA people can calm any fears that crop from those not in the test.

Saying that people will get confused between what is emplemented and what isnt is easily solved and is actually not a very large issue anyway.

Having the data open to everyone is the best policy.

I dunno about that.  I don't think it would be the end of the world, and I wouldn't exactly fight against such a policy, but there is significant danger in letting the general public see a very raw build.  Some people could and probably would see some changes they don't like, say "Well, if that's the direction you're going..." and not come back, even if those changes were later reverted.  Furthermore, some features could sound nice to the public in theory, but need to be played to see how they're bad.  If that happened, I think the fighting between those within HAB and those without would get a lot worse, with people outside looking in saying "Why would you get rid of that awesome something or other_!"  Especially when everyone could see exactly who was saying what, I think it would just cause a lot of bad blood.

[Pastorius]

N0stalgia, on July 31 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

I started this thread and heck.... I want to close it now. HAHA. Is there a way for me to do that_ Seriously_

You could ask a forum manager if we had one_

Seriously though, if you PM ZaboniChaos he may close it for you. I know they have done that before and it really isn't a good advert for the game when new players read a thread like this. Same goes for the other one about the patch bombing.

I understand what you were trying to do but all of these threads just take a nose dive almost immediately at the moment. It's very sad that the community can't engage in sensible, constructive debate anymore.

I'm going back to building Lego mechs. It's a lot more fun

Edited by Pastorius, July 31 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[RedVan]

SmoothBoar, on July 31 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Please explain why letting everyone see information is a bad thing___ Im not sure ive ever seen a test environment that had a limited amount of testers but the information was available to all end up being bad.

With no NDA people can calm any fears that crop from those not in the test.

It will calm fears_  More like you'll have people crying about changes they can read about but not test to see if it actually works. I guarantee it'll give undue stress to the devs and mods having to calm the fears that I guarantee it would bring. Even if the devs only listen to those in HAB, the HAB testers would then need to be arguing with a bunch of people who arent educated on the changes. People already argue about small changes from patch to patch. It will only be expounded in an environment where larger changes may be made, and/or people are only able to read about changes and not test them. Look at how many different opinions there already are. Ultimately the devs need to chose what they think is best, but when a clusterfuck of people are all crying for their own opinions to be "the way", it just makes for a hassle for the devs and private testers.

Quote

Saying that people will get confused between what is emplemented and what isnt is easily solved and is actually not a very large issue anyway.

Excellent supporting evidence btw.

Quote

Having the data open to everyone is the best policy.

Not when it can result in massive headaches to both devs and players.

What if I told you customization was becoming like MWO, and it was based on level_  What do you think would happen in the forums_  Everyone would just stand in a circle and sing koombiah_

[SS396]

SmoothBoar, on July 31 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Please explain why letting everyone see information is a bad thing___ Im not sure ive ever seen a test environment that had a limited amount of testers but the information was available to all end up being bad.

How can you control someone when you don't have any legal binding over them_

REDVAN explained it the best so far, please read his response over a few times.


You all want to know what its in HAB, read more.
https://community.pl...he-next-update/

The devs have made sure that THEY are the ones releaseing info WHEN THEY WANT IT RELEASED.  

THAT IS THE POINT OF A NDA.

Now, quit asking for everyone to be equal, it is not possible.

[DieselCat]

caduceus26, on July 30 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

N0stalgia, on July 30 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

For the record, I do NOT wish to be a part of the HAB - and by that I mean I would refuse the invitation if it were even given. I am not a programmer or a game designer. I have no experience with game testing other than Hawken closed alpha and beta. And in them, I merely played - eyes glued to the screen in the glory of the vanquished. That being said...

I'd play Hawken with broken mechanics. I'd play Hawken with map exploits. I'd play Hawken balanced or unbalanced - and I'd play the underdog-mech to play "hard mode". I would voice my opinion in the forums, as I have - hoping the devs know better. The bottom line is that I do not believe in separating a community of beta players (note that I did not say testers) into groups of the haves and have nots.  I participated in the podcast where the HAB was announced, but my voice was never heard and none of my questions were answered. I, like many of you, have been interested in Hawken since I saw its first trailer. I knew it would be special. It is the first game I've been so involved with that this is the first - and only - forum I have ever participated in.

I realize that the devs cannot go back to a closed beta now that it has been opened. Furthermore, I understand that they cannot and will not release a patch or product that is not fully realized. I also understand the potential value the HAB can bring to a final product. However, I also see now how alienating it is to its quiet, yet devoted following.

As it stands now, there is only one forum that matters - and that is the HAB forum. If we all cannot participate in the HAB, we should be able to know what is being said by the player base selected. Don't we all deserve readable access to the HAB forum even if we cannot post in it_

I miss the days of UT glory. So far, only Hawken stands a chance of bringing that awesomeness back to PC gaming. I think ALL the active players in Hawken want the game to be as successful as any HAB member. Adhesive and Meteor say some players are more deserving of an opinion. I say they've made a mistake.

This is in response to the broader reaction to the announcement of the HAB using the quoted post as a springboard.

I don't understand the all negative reactions to the HAB. I haven't been around the gaming community for very long but I have been around for awhile. My entire career (education and work) has been in Information Technology from Computer Operations to Systems Analysis, Applications Development, Systems Design, Systems Architecture, testing, management, etc. I was the Testing Director for Y2K and the acquisition and merging of application systems for a large U.S. rail transportation company. I also headed up the team responsible for development and testing applications for New Zealand Railways. I did this same kind of work in nine countries in Europe and Asia for one of the largest beverage companies (New York-based -- you guess the company) in the world. But enough about me.  I only mention some of my background to support what I am about to say:

I am not a game developer but I have designed and developed more business applications than I can count for some of the largest companies in the world.  The process of any application development (designing, programming, testing, and implementation) of any system -- business application, game, or otherwise is made up of a System Development Life Cycle (SDLC). A high-level picture of an SDLC might look like this:

Feasibility Study->Conceptual Design->Functional Specifications->Technical Design->Development->Testing (unit, string, system)->Implementation->Post Implementation Audit->Maintenance.

This is an iterative process and can loop back and come forward at any stage of the process.  Testing is a discipline.  It is not something that can be done by everyone.  Bug reports are inevitable and ongoing throughout the life of a system.  The more complex and widely distributed the system, the more bugs will be discovered, regardless of how thorough the testing is. Testing is not fun. It is tedium ad nauseum and can be very frustrating at times. However, it can be very rewarding to be part of a successful product rollout. Testing must be structured and bounded. What is the right number of testers_  How long should it be_ Who should do it_ When is it tested fully enough to release to a broader audience_  All these questions have to be answered -- and not by everyone who feels that they have a stake in the final product outcome, or are passionate about the product.  On the other hand, what would the reaction be to a patch riddled with errors, performance issues, bad design decisions, etc_ It could, in all likelihood, kill the effort before it got off the ground.

What I hear in some of the "pushback" about the HAB are really about participation in the design and features list decisions.  These actually belong in the conceptual and functional design phases of the SDLC.

It would be IMPOSSIBLE to include everyone who feels that they are stakeholders in this, or any other product development. As the old saying goes: "The proof is in the pudding" or "The proof of the pudding is in the eating". Someone has put their money where their mouth is in the development and publishing of Hawken. If they get it right the result will be a huge payoff for the investors and the gaming community.  If not, everyone loses, but the people who have $$$ skin in the game lose the most. If we don't like the results as end-users we can just walk away. This is our system of entrepreneurial risk and capitalism and the people taking the risk certainly have the right to decide how to mitigate that risk. This includes how they want to manage the development and testing process.

I am rooting for the HAB, the devs, and the gamers.  I don't know who is in the HAB and I don't care.  What I do care about is that Adhesive Games gives the gaming community an exciting  and immersive experience in what so far has been the only game (FPS or otherwise -- well, except for "Sims") to hold my attention for this long .I am looking forward to the new changes with much anticipation.

Caduceus26, This makes more sense than anythings else I've read in this thread.....thanks for your insite....

A big fat giant .... +1

Edited by DieselCat, July 31 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[SmoothBoar]

RedVan, on July 31 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

SmoothBoar, on July 31 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Please explain why letting everyone see information is a bad thing___ Im not sure ive ever seen a test environment that had a limited amount of testers but the information was available to all end up being bad.

With no NDA people can calm any fears that crop from those not in the test.

It will calm fears_  More like you'll have people crying about changes they can read about but not test to see if it actually works. I guarantee it'll give undue stress to the devs and mods having to calm the fears that I guarantee it would bring. Even if the devs only listen to those in HAB, the HAB testers would then need to be arguing with a bunch of people who arent educated on the changes. People already argue about small changes from patch to patch. It will only be expounded in an environment where larger changes may be made, and/or people are only able to read about changes and not test them. Look at how many different opinions there already are. Ultimately the devs need to chose what they think is best, but when a clusterfuck of people are all crying for their own opinions to be "the way", it just makes for a hassle for the devs and private testers.

Quote

Saying that people will get confused between what is emplemented and what isnt is easily solved and is actually not a very large issue anyway.

Excellent supporting evidence btw.

Quote

Having the data open to everyone is the best policy.

Not when it can result in massive headaches to both devs and players.

What if I told you customization was becoming like MWO, and it was based on level_  What do you think would happen in the forums_  Everyone would just stand in a circle and sing koombiah_

First off I've been in a testing environment as mentioned before that has a limited amount of people on the test server testing things that the whole community can see, with an even larger community than Hawken has across multiple unofficial websites because there was no official forum forever for that game. Protip: no one gets in a huge fight or goes ape fuzzy bunny about changes that may or may not come.

Yes they get disappointed if something is put up that they don't like, but as it is a TEST server, they don't hold their breath about it till launch day. You guys are over exaggerating the fear and panic giving the info out to everyone would cause, I've been in a similar system and it doesn't work the way you guys are picturing it or the headaches you think it will cause.

[Cpt_Kill_Jack]

SmoothBoar, on July 31 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Please explain why letting everyone see information is a bad thing___ Im not sure ive ever seen a test environment that had a limited amount of testers but the information was available to all end up being bad.

With no NDA people can calm any fears that crop from those not in the test.

Saying that people will get confused between what is emplemented and what isnt is easily solved and is actually not a very large issue anyway.

Having the data open to everyone is the best policy.

There are these types of development systems. For world of tanks it goes through 3 stages of testing before it hits the live server. First it goes through internal testing which could last months before even the last patch was put out and then after that it moves to the Closed and selected Supertest group which is now exclusive to those that speak russian. After the Supertest which could last another month and the Supertest is the equivalent to the HAB it then moves to Open testing on a separate server from the live server which has a limit of 13000 connections for the entire world and is usually held on a server in Russia and its usually hard to get in because the peak population for the 3-4 Russian live server clusters combined is 500,000 players. After the Public test whos sole purpose is load testing of the patch because there are only 150 people for their supertest group it gets put out to the different regions one after another.


So yes this is something that companies do when they dont or cant hire people outside of the state or country but still want more people to test upcoming content and provide feedback. The people in the HAB and similar supertest environments are acting to the developers like the Canaries did for Miners back in the day in the mines. If something happened to the Canaries they GTFO'd. This is the purpose of a Supertest group.

These supertest groups are under heavy NDA because anything inside the client they are using may or may not become part of the final version. So as not to rial up the community on things that again may or may not be final there is NDA so that nothing should get out. But there are always leaks and thats what a moderating team is for. Now for world of tanks if you gave a leak your account for all Wargaming games was banned no matter how much someone played. Someone for the WoWP alpha decided to post a video their account of 27,000 battles on world of tanks was banned. NDAs for these types of things are very serious.

I hope this helps you understand a little better why there is an NDA and a separate forum section for the HAB that is invisible. Now for tanks it was a completely separate URL forum for their Supertest.

Edited by Cpt_Kill_Jack, July 31 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[OdinTheWise]

Why is it such a big deal about HAB testers_ I never saw this kind of animosity towards alpha and beta testers. ADH wants to keep info tight on HAB for some major PR reasons. If the new material is not received well, it could potentially destroy the game. Early testing is very common and normal. There are test screanings of movies all the time. HAB creats a better product and helps with smoother releases.

I understand that people are jealous or feel like they are not as important, but part of the reason most of the players were chosen was because they won't go nuts and outrage when somthing they don't like happens.

[SmoothBoar]

Its not even about the testers really, its the fact that the information is under NDA. So many games have test servers and make changes that are open for people to talk about that unless the game turns into pay to win, no media outlet ever reports on.

The game is currently on life support. If you deny that you are blind. At this stage in development, any new is good news to get people excited about this game again.

[Leonhardt]

SmoothBoar, on July 31 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Its not even about the testers really, its the fact that the information is under NDA. So many games have test servers and make changes that are open for people to talk about that unless the game turns into pay to win, no media outlet ever reports on.

The game is currently on life support. If you deny that you are blind. At this stage in development, any new is good news to get people excited about this game again.

Early hype is bad hype. News that is not definitive is bad news. Try to understand that if people are interested that doesn't change from now until the patch hits unless something changes it like something getting thrown out that they wanted and the list goes on. Saying nothing is the best option right now because the patch is massive. From what the patch notes have said its pretty much a whole new game.

The time to do a PR push is after the patch is set in stone not before.

People have been saying this game is going to fail since Alpha. Hell I've read so many threads and posts explaining about how the game is "on life support" as you put it and that it is failing I might as well be an expert on failing games. Yet it continues to grow without any advertising. Many said the game wouldn't even last to this point. I am highly skeptical of your reasoning and I honestly find your negativity and lack of faith disturbing.

Edited by Leonhardt, July 31 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[Cpt_Kill_Jack]

SmoothBoar, on July 31 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Its not even about the testers really, its the fact that the information is under NDA. So many games have test servers and make changes that are open for people to talk about that unless the game turns into pay to win, no media outlet ever reports on.

The game is currently on life support. If you deny that you are blind. At this stage in development, any new is good news to get people excited about this game again.

Again this type of testing is common in the gaming industry. And yest information within a Supertest is always under NDA even after release of the patch they were testing. This is done when more major testing is needed before a patch can be moved to an Open Public test server before it goes to live.

This was something that ADH probably should have done a long time ago but they did it now and nothing can change that. For World of Tanks this kind of testing was done all through closed beta and it was exclusive to the Russian population along with the Public test server. And again until its on the Public test server its under NDA and anything that was in the Supertest that is not in the Public test was also under NDA even after the patch hit Public test before the Live closed beta and open betas and finally release.

NDA is a big part of the industry when it comes to anything relating to updates. Updates will always be under NDA with limited things that can be said about them because its advised by the legal department and the lawyers. Some will even have you print an NDA read it, sign it and then Mail or Fax it to them with a photocopy of a legal ID to file away.


I have been part of these kinds of testing systems before and i know the drill.

[SmoothBoar]

I was in Alpha, during that time thise responses were dumb becase the Alpha groups were small, changes were slow, game was glitchy.

This is Open Beta, which for all purposes except a full review from a media outlet is go live. Normally when games are going they announce their player base, I have never seen one since open beta started.

You can look at the server browser yourself and see that the community is dwindling. Do you honestly think launching will change that_ Unless the game suddenly becomes zomg wtf bbq sauce, which we all hope it does, you will see maybe a small surge in players if that.

With them looking at going to release in the winter against xbox one and ps4 combined with all the games that are coming out its not looking good.

There is no reason things cant or wont change and I hope to look back and find im wrong, but as of this current moment there cag flow has to be low for this title due to sluggish patch releases and the fact that most everyone is just sitting on meteor creds cause they already bought qhat they want,

[SmoothBoar]

Cpt_Kill_Jack, on July 31 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

SmoothBoar, on July 31 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Its not even about the testers really, its the fact that the information is under NDA. So many games have test servers and make changes that are open for people to talk about that unless the game turns into pay to win, no media outlet ever reports on.

The game is currently on life support. If you deny that you are blind. At this stage in development, any new is good news to get people excited about this game again.

Again this type of testing is common in the gaming industry. And yest information within a Supertest is always under NDA even after release of the patch they were testing. This is done when more major testing is needed before a patch can be moved to an Open Public test server before it goes to live.

This was something that ADH probably should have done a long time ago but they did it now and nothing can change that. For World of Tanks this kind of testing was done all through closed beta and it was exclusive to the Russian population along with the Public test server. And again until its on the Public test server its under NDA and anything that was in the Supertest that is not in the Public test was also under NDA even after the patch hit Public test before the Live closed beta and open betas and finally release.

NDA is a big part of the industry when it comes to anything relating to updates. Updates will always be under NDA with limited things that can be said about them because its advised by the legal department and the lawyers. Some will even have you print an NDA read it, sign it and then Mail or Fax it to them with a photocopy of a legal ID to file away.


I have been part of these kinds of testing systems before and i know the drill.

Yes, but there is still a public test, there is also a much larger community for that game. Hawkens community is currently extremely small. All of that makes sense with a large community, not with how Hawken is now.

Edited by SmoothBoar, July 31 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[N0stalgia]

The message was sent. Hopefully, this thread dies a quick death.

And my sincerest apology to the Hawken community. We are all brothers and sisters here.

On behalf of all the HABnots, please forgive us. You MUST understand our frustration.

To all the HABs, please do your best. Thank you.

/thread

Edited by N0stalgia, July 31 2013 - 01:20 PM.

[ropefish]

when......will......this.......thread...........die =_=

[N0stalgia]

ropefish, on July 31 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

when......will......this.......thread...........die =_=

soon. very soon. as soon as Hughes reads my message.... hopefully.

mini nuke.

Edited by N0stalgia, July 31 2013 - 01:24 PM.