13 replies to this topic

[CounterlogicMan]

I propose a few new items.


Thermal Optics - Acting much like predator vision (without the seeing through walls bit) activating this item gives you thermal vision that reveals cloaked enemies and mechs and items that are concealed by foliage, holograms and smoke screens.
1 slot
duration - until damage is sustained
cooldown - 20 seconds

Smoke Grenade - Has the same launching dynamics of the h.e. grenade. Creates a smoke screen that default vision cannot see through. Predator vision and thermal optics can however see through the smoke. If an enemy is spotted "Q" the the red highlight of their mech is revealed even while in smoke (puts more emphasis on using the spotting mechanic). Mechs with thermal vision or predator vision can spot enemies in smoke. When inside the smoke enemies become visible at very close ranges (maybe 5m__).

Smoke Grenade - mk1
Ideal for tight corridors and a-classes that like to ninja smoke bomb.
  -radius: 25m

Smoke Grenade - mk2
Good for masking team movements in narrow chokes.
  -radius: 45m

Smoke Grenade - mk3
Set up a giant frontal assault or devastating flank, maybe rain smoke on the battlefield then switch to your thermal vision and take out the blinded enemies that now have a shortened vision range.
-radius: 90m

Note - if possible, make it possible for enemies that are spotted and highlighted in the smoke to be locked by hellfires. Otherwise enemies that are concealed in the smoke should not be lockable by hellfires.

Note 2 - Portable Scanners should have a 30% chance to detect enemies in a smoke screen.

Heat Grenade - Has the same launching dynamics of the h.e. grenade. When this grenade explodes it applies heat to enemy mechs which slowly degenerates. Mechs that are affected by the heat grenade show a sort of hot steam release animation coming off the mech until the total amount of heat generated by the grenade is dissipated. If a mech overheats as a result from the blast of a heat grenade, the steam effect coming off the mech is noticeably more intense than normal and lasts until weapon restart is complete.

Heat Grenade - mk1
  radius: 10m
  heat generated: 20% of heat capacity

Heat Grenade - mk2
  radius: 12m
  heat generated: 30% of heat capacity

Heat Grenade - mk3
  radius: 15m
  heat generated: 45% of heat capacity

note: the heat generated doesn't necessarily have to be based on a percentage of total heat capacity. The idea behind the percentage of total heat capacity is that it would affect all the mechs by a proportional amount. Another option could be base point values to the heat generated, essentially making the grenade less effective vs C-class and more effective vs A-class.

note 2: After some awesome feedback below (Thanks ThirdEye), we can add a possibly much more palatable potential implementation of heat greandes:
[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]What if the heat grenade instead of putting, a static or proportional amount, heat on the mech the grenade added a debuff to the mechs caught in the radius.[/font]

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Something like:[/font]

[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Mk1: 3% increase heat generation from weapons[/font]
[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Mk2: 5% increase[/font]
[font=play, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]mk3: 8% increase[/font]

These of course are just what I think these items should look like, and the stats I feel would be a good point to start at when discussing balance. I am not saying the given values are what would work best. Please comment with any thoughts on these items, any stat changes you would implement with a reason why, any cool strategies or scenarios you could see these items in, any reason why these items would be broken and or imbalanced.

Thanks for reading!

edit1: edited tags

edit2: clarifying somethings about the heat grenade

Edited by CounterlogicMan, November 11 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[ArccBR]

Besides the HEAT granade, the smoke g. and the infrared are awesome ideas.

[ThirdEyE]

I also don't like the idea of a HEAT grenade, as it would punish certain mechs more or less than others.  For example, a Tech with max Cooling Units would only overheat for 2.75 seconds, but a Brawler without Cooling Units would overheat for 10 seconds.  One thing that's nice about the EMP is that it's a universal duration (without countermeasures).

I would love to see a smoke grenade introduced though, would make for some interesting tactics (particularly with Predator).

[CounterlogicMan]

I can definitely see some of the potential problems with the heat grenade, especially what you say Thirdeye. However I do feel that a weapon or item is needed in the game that generates heat on enemy mechs. We have items/weapons that affect almost every other aspect of our mechs, why not heat_

Would be very potent.

What if the heat grenade instead of putting, a static or proportional amount, heat on the mech the grenade added a debuff to the mechs caught in the radius.

Something like:

Mk1: 3% increase heat generation from weapons
Mk2: 5% increase
mk3: 8% increase

So instead of unfairly affecting different classes it would just make you change your heat usage habits on the fly. The effectiveness would then depend on the weapons being used rather than the mech being piloted. Am I right or wrong_

Edited by CounterlogicMan, November 08 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[ropefish]

all but the heat, would be nice as a pred to drop a mk3 smoke, flash bang, and get some good pred kills

EDIT: how would the thermal vision work with the pred o-o

Edited by ropefish, November 08 2013 - 05:21 PM.

[ThirdEyE]

Something like that seems a lot more reasonable.  While I don't think a weaponized version of heat generation would be very good, if it were then your suggestion would be a decent implementation of it.

[tropt]

I like your suggestions OP, including the heat grenade.
Nice one

Edited by tropt, November 09 2013 - 04:21 AM.

[BradersVal]

Im supprised at the general negative consensus of the heat grenade. It would be frustrating to be on the wrong end of one; however, it is a more interesting item when compared to the existing offensive items.

I also acknowledge the Issues raised by ThirdEyE, but i think that is more of an issue that Cooling Units are currently incredibly effective for their cost in tuning points, rather than heat application not effecting mechs universally.

As for the Smoke grenade, i don't see this happening anytime soon. It's a great idea; the trouble is Hawken already struggles with draw orders and stacking alphas (which is why, under certain circumstances, cloaked mechs become very visable). A cloaked mech in front of a dense particle effect, such as a smoke screen, would light up like a Christmas tree.

[DFTR]

Maybe if HEAT grenade replaced EMP...

[Richgar]

I'm actually for the heat grenade and smoke grenade, but not the thermal. I believe thermal should be unique to the predator. The heat grenade seems plausible, but it should take up a larger amount of item slots, and should only add, at max, 1/3 of the heat required for overheating. Smoke grenades might have a balance problem if hellseekers can lock on to targets within the smoke. Otherwise, it seems like a great idea. There could be lag problems though, considering the possibility that a bunch of players could each toss a smoke during a single match..

Edited by Richgar, November 10 2013 - 07:38 PM.

[CounterlogicMan]

Edited the OP to more accurately reflect the ongoing results of the discussion. Also, thanks for all the feedback guys.

DFTR: I feel like the EMP has a definite place in Hawken. There just needs to be more variety and more options available to players, especially items.

BradersVal: You bring up the interesting point that Hawken may not be able to run smoothly if smoke grenades are implemented due to technical limitations. I'd love to hear a dev's response to that, maybe they could shed some light on the issue. As far as draw calls and other GPU related issues, have you heard of AMD Mantle__ Maybe once that technology is more developed and proliferated we could see a much more epic looking game_ Thoughts_

[Dackstrus]

I'd been thinking about the thermal visor as a thing they could put out.

I think it honestly should be two slot... But with one slot, it's then possible to use this with the regen item.

[CounterlogicMan]

On the suggestion of thermal vision being 2 slot vs one slot. For me the decision was entirely based on this thought process.

*looks at internals list*
*vomits in disgust*
*sees how there is only one internal that takes one slot*
*thinks of other internal ideas that might be appropriate for one slot*

[Sadistic_Dentist]

I like the idea of both Heat Grenade and Smoke Grenade. I think the first one would be great for Incinerator.
I am not sure I can advertise my ideas here, but I think if u liked CounterlogicMan's ideas (which are great), then you will like also mine: https://community.pl...ne-suggestions/