25 replies to this topic

[StruttingStray]

So, I was going over Luminescent's A Comparison Of Mech Stats thread and I was fixated on the Heatsinks chart. Most other stats seem balanced, except for a select few outliers.

Luminescent, on September 14 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Heatsinks
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Now, I understand the logic of making A-class mechs have lower stats to compensate for their low armor but personnally I think Heatsinks should be the opposite. Since 3 out of 5 A-class mechs have weapons closer in power level to C-class mechs, shouldn't they overheat faster_ In my opinion C-class mechs should be built better for dispersing heat, with bigger fans and heatsinks inside.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I think it doesn't really matter, as most A vs C superiority issues have more to do with mobility and abilities than the weapons.

[Leonhardt]

Actually I've been thinking that C-class and really sustained weapon mechs would be far more effective if they had a better heatsink stat. If I am not going to overheat after/during fighting just one mech then C-class could press their health advantage more. This would also go a long way to perhaps backing off some of the cooling unit ridiculousness on some classes and bring back heat management for them.

Anyway thats what I see.

[Bazookagofer]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 01 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

I think it doesn't really matter, as most A vs C superiority issues have more to do with mobility and abilities than the weapons.

Yup but I think the devs should try giving the c classes some extra benefits instead of more hp. The devs hp for mobility isn't working for a long time because now we got infils running around with 670 hp.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Bazookagofer, on December 01 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on December 01 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

I think it doesn't really matter, as most A vs C superiority issues have more to do with mobility and abilities than the weapons.

Yup but I think the devs should try giving the c classes some extra benefits instead of more hp. The devs hp for mobility isn't working for a long time because now we got infils running around with 670 hp.

Honestly, that was a thing that could happen back in Alpha/CB.
It wasn't really a problem then though, because the game was faster back then. C-Classes were mobile, at least at short ranges, so they could almost match A-Classes when it came to dancing around a point, and the health advantage made up for the rest.

[FakeName]

Wait I don't get it ... the LESS heatsinks a mech has the MORE it heats up right_

If you look closely, you will find that C classes have a better heatsink than A classes ...

So whats the problem of "buff C nerf A"_ I don't get it.

[comic_sans]

Wait, I thought it was the weapons on a-classes output ~90% as much heat when they fire.  Is this how it works though_

[RedVan]

Increased mobility across the board will help balance immensely.

Edit: the problem with nerfing A is that A is the kind of speed and maneuverability that attracted people to the game in the first place. If you nerf them, people stop using them, overall game speed slows, game gets boring.

Better to buff C than nerf A.

Edited by RedVan, December 01 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[ShadowWarg]

That may actually be a nice idea. If A's overheat faster, they can't stay in battle as long (granted they cant stay in battle that long anyway) This allows C's to be more effective tanks. But any experienced player knows how to manage their heat, and the extra fire time may not matter if C's can't take advantage of it because they get taken down so fast.

RedVan, on December 01 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Increased mobility across the board will help balance immensely.

Edit: the problem with nerfing A is that A is the kind of speed and maneuverability that attracted people to the game in the first place. If you nerf them, people stop using them, overall game speed slows, game gets boring.

Better to buff C than nerf A.

10-25% armor buff to all C mechs
Global speed increase by 15%

Edited by ShadowWarg, December 01 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

RedVan, on December 01 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Increased mobility across the board will help balance immensely.

Edit: the problem with nerfing A is that A is the kind of speed and maneuverability that attracted people to the game in the first place. If you nerf them, people stop using them, overall game speed slows, game gets boring.

Better to buff C than nerf A.

It really seems like the balanced the speed of the game around A-Classes, which is not the way to do things.
A-Classes should be the "too fast more the average person's tastes" option, and B-Classes should be the midline.

EDIT: I know many people who only play A-Classes frequently because it's the only way they feel the game is fast enough for them. :/

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, December 01 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[Leonhardt]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 01 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

EDIT: I know many people who only play A-Classes frequently because it's the only way they feel the game is fast enough for them. :/

That sums up how I feel about it if I am being honest. Don't get me wrong though I enjoy other mechs quite a bit too, but nothing beats going super speed with a scout playing run and gun.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Leonhardt, on December 01 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on December 01 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

EDIT: I know many people who only play A-Classes frequently because it's the only way they feel the game is fast enough for them. :/

That sums up how I feel about it if I am being honest. Don't get me wrong though I enjoy other mechs quite a bit too, but nothing beats going super speed with a scout playing run and gun.

I get you.
Other classes can have fun playstyles, but it's a real mood killer when the mere acting of moving from place to place is a painfully sluggish activity.

It's like trying to play Quake without being allowed to strafejump.

[StruttingStray]

FakeName, on December 01 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Wait I don't get it ... the LESS heatsinks a mech has the MORE it heats up right_

It's actually the opposite, when you add tunning points to heatsink the % lowers. The smaller number on the graph indicates max tuning points in heatsinks.

Now I'm not saying this will fix all the balance issues, but it could be a step in the right direction to define the classes better and balance out there stregths and weaknesses.

[Leonhardt]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 01 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on December 01 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on December 01 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

EDIT: I know many people who only play A-Classes frequently because it's the only way they feel the game is fast enough for them. :/

That sums up how I feel about it if I am being honest. Don't get me wrong though I enjoy other mechs quite a bit too, but nothing beats going super speed with a scout playing run and gun.

I get you.
Other classes can have fun playstyles, but it's a real mood killer when the mere acting of moving from place to place is a painfully sluggish activity.

It's like trying to play Quake without being allowed to strafejump.

Exactly! I understand that you give up some of that "freedom" for useful stats such as health, but it just doesn't feel right on all of the mechs.

For example I love playing the vanguard its mobile and still tanky performs well as a C class that still feels relatively fast and so does the current air rocketeer (flying whale). Then we go to the brawler or the grenadier and I feel so slow its not even fun... well there is something incredibly awesome about the rev-gl I just can't put my finger on, but it doesn't make up for the lumbering nature of the mech for me.

I know some people like the slower mechs and even the slow lumbering nature of those mechs, but my point is the mechs I have fun with are all at least ~raider speed (no blitz and probably base stats). So if you see me using a scout that is why.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Leonhardt, on December 01 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on December 01 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on December 01 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on December 01 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

EDIT: I know many people who only play A-Classes frequently because it's the only way they feel the game is fast enough for them. :/

That sums up how I feel about it if I am being honest. Don't get me wrong though I enjoy other mechs quite a bit too, but nothing beats going super speed with a scout playing run and gun.

I get you.
Other classes can have fun playstyles, but it's a real mood killer when the mere acting of moving from place to place is a painfully sluggish activity.

It's like trying to play Quake without being allowed to strafejump.

Exactly! I understand that you give up some of that "freedom" for useful stats such as health, but it just doesn't feel right on all of the mechs.

For example I love playing the vanguard its mobile and still tanky performs well as a C class that still feels relatively fast and so does the current air rocketeer (flying whale). Then we go to the brawler or the grenadier and I feel so slow its not even fun... well there is something incredibly awesome about the rev-gl I just can't put my finger on, but it doesn't make up for the lumbering nature of the mech for me.

I know some people like the slower mechs and even the slow lumbering nature of those mechs, but my point is the mechs I have fun with are all at least ~raider speed (no blitz and probably base stats). So if you see me using a scout that is why.

In the case of the Brawler, the tremendous speed nerf isn't even logical.

I still cannot fathom how they came to the conclusion that the C-Class with the shortest range needed to be the slowest, in a game where mobility is so damn important. I understand they wanted a tanky C-Class, but there are plenty of better, more logical, more "common sense" choices.

[KejiGoto]

AsianJoyKiller, on December 01 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on December 01 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on December 01 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

EDIT: I know many people who only play A-Classes frequently because it's the only way they feel the game is fast enough for them. :/

That sums up how I feel about it if I am being honest. Don't get me wrong though I enjoy other mechs quite a bit too, but nothing beats going super speed with a scout playing run and gun.

I get you.
Other classes can have fun playstyles, but it's a real mood killer when the mere acting of moving from place to place is a painfully sluggish activity.

It's like trying to play Quake without being allowed to strafejump.

Maybe I've just become used to the slower pace of Hawken since the days of closed testing but the only time I feel like my mobility is hindered to a point where I can't keep up with combat is when I'm in the Brawler. I've beaten that subject to death recently though so I'll spare the complaints about it's load out and speed.

Personally I'm okay with having slow lumbering mechs as long as they fit the profile for it. I think it adds a nice splash of diversity onto the battlefield and gives teams more options than just being the rolling death ball of doom we constantly see. Maybe this is the old Mech Warrior fan in me talking but I like the idea of fast mechs leading the charge with the slow tanks behind them providing support.

Grenadier teeters on the edge of being too slow for me but I still feel capable of dancing around when I need to, however it will be a very short dance. Its weapon load outs do enough (for me) to keep enemies at bay or if they get up close I can still lay into them rather hard (Vulcan).

I love how fast paced Hawken can be and was but I also like things being more diversified on the battlefield in terms of speed. The last thing I want to see is Hawken go back to A-Class mechs being king and everyone else trying to keep pace with them. Thankfully Ascension did a lot to reduce this issue by evening out repair time (something I wasn't a fan of to being with but now love) and giving players options to tweak speeds on their mechs.

On topic with the thread though I wouldn't mind seeing A-Class mechs overheat quicker. They are smaller and obviously have less area to dissipate heat to. This would definitely help promote a sense of higher skill needed to pilot an A-Class as heat management would be a bigger issue. Also this would reduce the issues with A-Classes having the same damage output as B-Class and C-Class.

[RedVan]

Slow mechs reduce options of gameplay. Get a slow mech and people need to stick to it to protect it.

[DeVact]

RedVan, on December 01 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Slow mechs reduce options of gameplay. Get a slow mech and people need to stick to it to protect it.

And in DM slow mechs are cannon fodder. I'm a M beyond salvation which is why I choose Brawler over any other mech in DM

[Magnolia1038]

StruttingStray, on December 01 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

In my opinion C-class mechs should be built better for dispersing heat, with bigger fans and heatsinks inside.

I was actually thinking about this during breakfast this morning, and fully agree it would be a step in the right direction.

AsianJoyKiller, on December 01 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

I know many people who only play A-Classes frequently because it's the only way they feel the game is fast enough for them. :/

After having been spoiled by games like Quake and Unreal Tournament, this is exactly the reason I fell in love with the Scout.

[eth0]

StruttingStray, on December 01 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

In my opinion C-class mechs should be built better for dispersing heat, with bigger fans and heatsinks inside.

Yes, I like this idea. It is a fine idea. It makes choosing a larger mech a more attractive option when considering what weapon you need.

RedVan, on December 01 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Slow mechs reduce options of gameplay. Get a slow mech and people need to stick to it to protect it.

Fuzzybunny the teamwork, right_

Kidding aside, some mechs should be slow and some should be fast. I don't think the brawler should be as slow as it is. And while we're talking about C class speed, rocky could stand to be a bit slower. At least, it makes sense to me to have mechs with longer ranged attacks be less mobile. Which completes the polarity of having the brawler, a close-range mech, move a bit quicker.

Edited by eth0, December 01 2013 - 02:10 PM.