20 replies to this topic

[StruttingStray]

:::::WARNING: WALL OF TEXT:::::

I feel that Hawken is short on advanced techniques. I'm not saying Hawken lacks skill, just that's the skillsets it requires is a fairly short list. The skills you need to succede are good aim, spatial awareness, positioning and knowledge of stats and items. Fairly standard for a FPS.

One thing that Hawken has that's a big selling point is that you are piloting mechs. So why not add special techniques that make you feel like you are pulling off complicated manuevers in a vehicle designed for war_ I would like to see advanced techniques which are hard to pull off, but with practice can greatly improve your performance even with underpowered mechs.

Games designed for competition sometimes have such teniques that add to the gaming experience. These usually don't interfere with beginner and intermediate games but are crucial for high tier play.
Notable Examples:

• Quake "Rocket Jumping"
  
• Unreal Tournament 2004 "Wall Jumpimg"
  
• Street Fighter 3 "Parry"
  
• Super Street Fighter IV "Focus Attacks"
  
• Smash Bros. Brawl "Sex Kicks" and "Wave Dashing"

Yes, some of these are fighting games. But they are also at the apex of competitive games, because of the subtle and hard to learn expert mechanics.

Adding advanced techniques to Hawken could help with some of the balance proplems in the game. As long as the mechanics of the techniques work slightly different between the classes, it might be better than just buffing underpowerd stats. Below are some game mechanincs that I think could add combat variety, and increase the feeling of piloting a mech.

Power Drift Mechanic

Spoiler

The general concept is that when you dodge after boosting, your mech would drift adding speed and distance to the dodge. The same would hold true is you do a 180 turn after boosting forward, you would go into a backwards drift.

In theory, this could be used to get around corners while retreating or attacking, give you more manuveranility in combat and allow you to position yourself better when ambushed.

This could also help buff C class; I suggest this class would be able to go into drifts easier, have a longer drifts and have more control while drifting.

Drifting shouldn't completely replace basic dodging, the dodging we are accustomed to should still be the default for most situations.

Thruster Burst

Spoiler

In order for this mechanic to function, boosting would have to change from a hold command to a toggle. The concept is that boosting works exactly the same, except now you have the option of holding the button down to charge your thrusters. If you hold them to maximum before releasing, you would gain a quick burst of speed at the beginning of your boost with the drawback of using a some extra fuel.

This mechanic could work differently between classes. A class would have a smaller charge time, with a minimal increase in speed; while C class would have a larger charge, with a large increase in speed.
Another use would be to take to the air faster. A class would get a slightly higher boost from this since they are much lighter. Air dynamics might need some rebalancing to not make this aspect to strong.

Acceleration

Spoiler

Adding thruster acceleration might be a good way to balance out the huge gap that makes A class the apex of speed and mobility in all situations. A class stats shouldn't change much from what they already have, they would be the class with high speed and high acceleration. C class on the other hand would have a longer acceleration time, but a decent buffed max speed. In this way C class wouldn't get a buff to their current speed at close combat, but would gain a buff for pursuing wounded targets and be able to join combat faster. A class might need a small armor buff to compensate for this.

Any one of these techniques could be added to Hawken to diversefy playing styles and encourage new skillsets in my opinion. Rather than thinking of mechs as tanks with legs, it's posible to explore unique advantages a mech could bring to the battlefield and turn those ideas into game mechanics.

[Silk_Sk]

"Advanced Techniques" like the ones you are describing, by and large are not intentionally designed mechanics. They are exploits found by the players that give them an advantage at high-level play. It is not a bad thing that few such exploits have been discovered in Hawken. The ones that have (failsafe+fuel conversion for example) are breaking the game and will be removed.

[Silverfire]

First of all, what do you define advanced maneuvers in Hawken as_ What do you perceive them as_

[nepacaka]

Quote

are breaking the game and will be removed.

...like failsafe and converter maybe...in next patch...in near future...

[DeVact]

Silk_Sk, on December 05 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

failsafe+fuel conversion for example

The difference between that and what the OP suggested is that it literally doesn't take any skill. Once you've figured a certain combo of internals out or maybe even saw it on somebody's stream there's no further actions involved. Equip and enjoy your passive bonus.
Besides, the suggestions provided by the OP are no exploits but really legit options to bring more depth to movement.

[StruttingStray]

Silk_Sk, on December 05 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

The ones that have (failsafe+fuel conversion for example) are breaking the game and will be removed.

I consider failsafe+fuel converted an exploit of a mistake or oversight in scripting. But out of the examples I gave, only wave dashing was a happy mistake and was actual was kept for Smash Bros. Brawl. All the other examples were mechanics that were intentianally left in for interesting gameplay.

Silverfire, on December 05 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

First of all, what do you define advanced maneuvers in Hawken as_ What do you perceive them as_

I personnaly don't know of any advanced maneuvers in Hawken as is. You boost, fly and shoot. Items do their thing, they are stretegic but simple in nature. Mech abilities have their strenths and weaknesses, and usually work as intended. Hawken combat boils down to timing really. Attack at the right time, use items and abilities at the right time and retreat at the right time.

What I am suggesting is adding specific movements that take practice to get right, they don't give you an edge in damage but help your movements be a little less predictable. I'm not saying my ideas are perfect, it's just a suggestion and my opinion.

[Silverfire]

There are advanced maneuvers. Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist. There's a wolfyFTW YouTube video that details a few "advanced maneuvers" to start. I can't link it Because I'm on my phone, but if you search it or somebodyit's kind enough to link it, they're there for you to learn.

Although i wouldn't mind seeing more.

Edited by Silverfire, December 05 2013 - 04:28 PM.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

If 180 spin can be used during a side-dodge, I feel that would be a great bonus to positioning.

180 spin in general feels like it has potential, especially because of Hawken's capped turn rates.

I would not mind seeing extra techniques like these.

[eth0]

Before this turns into another failsafe discussion, I just want to agree that these are some pretty awesome ideas all around, increase the attractiveness of piloting larger mechs, and even seem to fit the canon.

Just imagine the scruffy pilots in the garage practicing their dodge-slides and telling stories about how they 180-thruster-flashed a cloaked pred once...

[Nvain]

Silverfire, on December 05 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

There's a wolfyFTW YouTube video that details a few "advanced maneuvers" to start. I can't link it Because I'm on my phone, but if you search it or somebody is kind enough to link it, they're there for you to learn.

There you go


I do miss the wall jumps from UT04, however I think the mechs are too heavy for such acrobatic moves... Would love to see something comparable in Hawken though!

[StruttingStray]

Thanks for the vid.

Silverfire, on December 05 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Just because you don't know them doesn't mess they don't exist.

I've actually been doing those moves intuetivly so I didn't consider them advanced manuevers. I considered them more along the line of tactical decisions, combining standard manuevers in unique ways.

Silverfire, on December 05 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Although i wouldn't mind seeing more.

That's all I'm really saying, I would enjoy adding a few new manuevers to the game. That way if you don't feel you can improve your aim much, you could at least try to be the best pilot you can be.

Nvain, on December 05 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

I do miss the wall jumps from UT04, however I think the mechs are too heavy for such acrobatic moves... Would love to see something comparable in Hawken though!

I'm not fully knowledgeble on the lore, but doesn't the planet that Hawken takes place in have less gravity than Earth_ And some sort of weightless materials_ If so, would wall jumps really be out of the question_

[HugeGuts]

While many want Hawken to be the arena shooter it was in the first game play preview, I doubt it will ever happen. Hawken's slooow movement combined with restricted weapon selection means there is no way around maneuverability adjustments making something totally crazy or totally useless - i.e. Scout and Brawler.

The next best thing to do for advanced game play in a slow moving game is team composition. Assume players will take damage almost all of the time and balance around that. While mech blobs are a guarantee with this method, it shouldn't be a problem if there are many unique classes and team builds.

[Interrobang87]

personally I love the idea OP made where A classes would have an advantage in acceleration and C's would have an advantage in top speed (B's obviously in between)

[Nvain]

StruttingStray, on December 05 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'm not fully knowledgeble on the lore, but doesn't the planet that Hawken takes place in have less gravity than Earth_ And some sort of weightless materials_ If so, would wall jumps really be out of the question_

SandSpider, on September 06 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Illal
Second planet from star
Size: Diam 13158 km
Mass 1.08 Earths
Avg Temp 37.8c
Orbital Year 292 days
Length of day  22.5 hours
Distance from star 129 million km on the inner edge of the habitable zone.

I'm not sure what SandSpider's sources on this are, but according to him Illal's mass is 1.08 Earths, so it's pretty safe to say gravity is very similar
I think it would take a lot of getting used to if there were wall jumps - a welcome change though.

[Aims]

Some good ideas in here - this is the kind of thing a few players have been saying since the beginning of OB. Air-Dodge was the first dramatic change which allowed for some slightly more advanced combat maneuvers (NOT just bunnyhopping) but it is still only a small step in the right direction.

I really like both the powersliding idea and the ability to 180 spin whilst mid-dodge idea. They could be great additions.

Edited by Aims, December 05 2013 - 07:44 PM.

[comic_sans]

Airdodging into a shield and righting your orientation midair is a great way to mix up shield dance engagements.  Makes you feel pro as fuzzy bunny too, lol.

[hestoned]

StruttingStray, on December 05 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

• Smash Bros. Brawl "Sex Kicks" and "Wave Dashing"

leave

[peacecraftSLD]

I think certain techniques are really based off the map. The map influences what Mechs are picked and where to position to attack. It's up to us to get creative on how to gain the advantage in a fight.

Edited by peacecraftSLD, December 05 2013 - 10:10 PM.

[dorobo]

Nvain, on December 05 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Silverfire, on December 05 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

There's a wolfyFTW YouTube video that details a few "advanced maneuvers" to start. I can't link it Because I'm on my phone, but if you search it or somebody is kind enough to link it, they're there for you to learn.

There you go


I do miss the wall jumps from UT04, however I think the mechs are too heavy for such acrobatic moves... Would love to see something comparable in Hawken though!

He used the scout there.. in those days scout had plenty of fuel and an unparalleled burst damage. Ye you could do all the fancy moves around the victim just for fun ya know

[driedjello]

Silverfire, on December 05 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

There are advanced maneuvers. Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist. There's a wolfyFTW YouTube video that details a few "advanced maneuvers" to start. I can't link it Because I'm on my phone, but if you search it or somebodyit's kind enough to link it, they're there for you to learn.

Although i wouldn't mind seeing more.

+1 to this.  "Moves like Mech Jagger" was probably the best video I have ever seen.  The "run under" technique still confuses some ambushing A class pilots today!

To the OP.  I am fine with adding new mechanics but consider that techniques are limitless as we pilot our mechs in a 3d environment.  Look at the top 10 players of Hawken, not only do they achieve spectacular results by nonthing more than a differing technique, they do it fairly flawlessly as a coordinated team.  (when playing together)

In lower level matches, I can't even keep "that one player" from charging alone away from the group over and over in TDM giving the opponents 25 kills.