63 replies to this topic

[fingerknitter]

Beefsweat, on December 15 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Requiem132, on December 15 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

The new name for hellfires is skillfires guys we must get it right! I am only mad that infiltrators cloaked can now be locked on makes me feel even more useless in it.

This has always been present and highlighting a cloaked mech will still give you an IFF outline, there have always been ways to spot cloaked enemies.

The reason that the hellfire lock-on onto cloaked mechs is always looked at with disdain is because YOU actually don't need to see the cloaked mech and are not required to CONTINUE seeing a cloaked mech in order to actively track that cloaked target and deal damage to it.

You can mash the lock-on button and, low and behold, without requiring that you actually SEE the cloaked mech, you will lock on to it. You essentially circumvent the entire ability to "cloak".

All I am asking for (personally) is that you have to first actively SEE the cloaked mech to hit it; I would actually much rather that the seeker on the rocketeer maintain its soft aim compensator over hellfires being able to lock on to cloaked mechs.

To me, AT LEAST the predator cloak should break hellfire locks and prevent lock-ons while cloaked; would be a great way to further distinguish infiltrator and predator cloak (also lets be honest, does the predator need ADDED hardships_) as well as make up for the fact that one hit renders the predators cloak broken.

Edited by fingerknitter, December 15 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[SlugBug]

MexichanMan, on December 14 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

- Increase the time for lock-on so that using the auto tracking will significantly reduce lock-on dps and promote dumb-firing
-Make hellfires easier to avoid out in the open by decreasing their speed and/or acceleration.
-Bring back its old damgae in order to compensate for the above changes.

By making the lock-on time significantly longer, you make the lock-on less versatile and make the user have to decide whether or not to lock on or dumbfire. Then allowing players to avoid the missiles much more reliably, it makes it so that player skill can overcome the ease-of-use. However, give the hellfires their damage back so they don't feel completely useless.

This 100%.  I was all about this a while ago before wreckage, though they felt it better to test out lowered damage.  I did hate the damage that they used to output, and I was ok with the nerf, but really, the above is the real long-term solution.  Adds more skill to the weapon which I think this game should focus on.  Learning these skills makes you a better pilot by giving you a challenge.  And you are more likely to actually engage in battle rather than just trying to snipe with your missiles.

[Silk_Sk]

I'm not so sure lock-on time should be longer. But it should definitely only be able to lock on in a limited range.

[The_Silencer]

I've received word on that Hell Fires can lock on Infils when cloacked. Could you confirm, guys_

[ropefish]

The_Silencer, on December 15 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

I've received word on that Hell Fires can lock on Infils when cloacked. Could you confirm, guys_

yes they can, predators too

[fingerknitter]

ropefish, on December 15 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

The_Silencer, on December 15 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

I've received word on that Hell Fires can lock on Infils when cloacked. Could you confirm, guys_

yes they can, predators too

I was shocked to hear from Vana himself that it was INTENTIONAL on the predator, and I guess they translated it onto the infiltrator. I think its beyond fuzzy bunny personally, because it completely allows you to circumvent these two mech's abilities. It would be like doubling the damage of explosives against turreted brawlers.

Edited by fingerknitter, December 15 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[The_Silencer]

fingerknitter, on December 15 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

ropefish, on December 15 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

The_Silencer, on December 15 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

I've received word on that Hell Fires can lock on Infils when cloacked. Could you confirm, guys_

yes they can, predators too

I was shocked to hear from Vana himself that it was INTENTIONAL on the predator, and I guess they translated it onto the infiltrator. I think its beyond fuzzy bunny personally, because it completely allows you to circumvent these two mechs visibility. It would be like doubling the damage of explosives against turreted brawlers.

I was about giving you a Like this but you said fuzzy bunnie!

[Muffintrumpet]

fingerknitter, on December 15 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

ropefish, on December 15 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

The_Silencer, on December 15 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

I've received word on that Hell Fires can lock on Infils when cloacked. Could you confirm, guys_

yes they can, predators too

I was shocked to hear from Vana himself that it was INTENTIONAL on the predator, and I guess they translated it onto the infiltrator. I think its beyond fuzzy bunny personally, because it completely allows you to circumvent these two mech's abilities. It would be like doubling the damage of explosives against turreted brawlers.

not at all surprised to hear this
increasingly I find that the design approach here is more about what's cool than much else

[fingerknitter]

Muffintrumpet, on December 16 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

fingerknitter, on December 15 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

ropefish, on December 15 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

The_Silencer, on December 15 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

I've received word on that Hell Fires can lock on Infils when cloacked. Could you confirm, guys_

yes they can, predators too

I was shocked to hear from Vana himself that it was INTENTIONAL on the predator, and I guess they translated it onto the infiltrator. I think its beyond fuzzy bunny personally, because it completely allows you to circumvent these two mech's abilities. It would be like doubling the damage of explosives against turreted brawlers.

not at all surprised to hear this
increasingly I find that the design approach here is more about what's cool than much else

I think its fairly easy to pick out the "choice" decisions surrounding the game that are solely made with complete nubs in mind and no one else xD

[Aptest]

fingerknitter, on December 15 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

beyond fuzzy bunny personally, because it completely allows you to circumvent these two mech's abilities....

fuzzy bunny.

pred and infil stealth should not under any circumstances grant you the ability to freely loiter in the front field of vision of an enemy mech. They should give you enough to bypass lightly guarded areas, but if you use them to take a stroll you need to get punished.

Their main and important feature should be radar cloak, with texture cloak a secondary and weak add on.

[Krellus]

hellfires are fine balance wise. easily negated with cover, worst damage compared to tow/nade etc given their slowest rate of fire given lock delay, no detonate, piss poor dumbfire - slow and wide spread. hellfires are great at shooting fliers, and targets in the open, that is all. tow/ nade etc are better overall - better dmg, better corner fighting, better long range tagging outside of fliers. hellfires are just ok now, but more nerfs will send them back to the UP bin. how many hellfire users top the boards in high level play_ zero. how many high level players even use hellfires... few. compare scouts, infils and raiders. look there for nerfs, my friends.ps - didnt realise lock on cloak was intentional, however, on reflecton, I think that is probably a good decision, balance wise.

Edited by Krellus, December 17 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[fingerknitter]

Aptest, on December 16 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

fingerknitter, on December 15 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

beyond fuzzy bunny personally, because it completely allows you to circumvent these two mech's abilities....

fuzzy bunny.

pred and infil stealth should not under any circumstances grant you the ability to freely loiter in the front field of vision of an enemy mech. They should give you enough to bypass lightly guarded areas, but if you use them to take a stroll you need to get punished.

Their main and important feature should be radar cloak, with texture cloak a secondary and weak add on.

You don't understand, you the USER need not actually notice a cloaked mech, the hellfires lock-on mechanic will do so for you. As an experiment: close your eyes, hit lock on, swivel around, and if an enemy is present, it will lock on regardless of whether or not you actually registered the cloak shimmer.

Krellus, on December 17 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

hellfires are fine balance wise. easily negated with cover, worst damage compared to tow/nade etc given their slowest rate of fire given lock delay, no detonate, piss poor dumbfire - slow and wide spread. hellfires are great at shooting fliers, and targets in the open, that is all. tow/ nade etc are better overall - better dmg, better corner fighting, better long range tagging outside of fliers. hellfires are just ok now, but more nerfs will send them back to the UP bin. how many hellfire users top the boards in high level play_ zero. how many high level players even use hellfires... few. compare scouts, infils and raiders. look there for nerfs, my friends.ps - didnt realise lock on cloak was intentional, however, on reflecton, I think that is probably a good decision, balance wise.

No they aren't fine balance wise, you said it yourself:

"how many hellfire users top the boards in high level play_"

So why do you say they are fine_ They AREN'T fine. Their ease of use amongst low skill players is what makes them so lackluster in high level play. I for one am hoping that the dmg nerf is only temporary, as the only thing it did was bring it in line with other harder to use secondaries in low level play, but hardly improved their performance amongst the upper echelons (no surprise, it was a nerf). To make them more rewarding for higher skill players, you have to introduce a more active mechanic that will utilize a players skill as the damage checker.

[Krellus]

Ah, it's true you dont see them much in high level which suggests they are UP in high level games. That's because they have too many disadv compared to tow/nade etc - overall they are outclassed in higher level games. Their UPness is not connected with how "easy" they are to use, which is also somewhat misleading - hellfires are easier for targeting fliers, that's all. Tow/nade etc are easier for ground targets and just about everything else except fliers. Hellfires are harder to use than tow/nade most of the time. you have to put your curson on the target to start the lock, then the foe has about 2 secs to escape. If you are firing a tow, as soon as your cursor is lined up you shoot, and the target has about 1/2 sec to move. And even if he does move, you can detonate for a partial hit. Dumbifre hellfires are just all worse than tow/nade - slower, less dmg, no detonate. For those whinging about hellfires being too easy, well, Tow/nade are easier in most encounters.

The problem with hellfires in high level play is targets are too experienced and dont leave cover for long, simply outgun you with superior secondary RoF out in the open, plus/or facehug with 60% dmg reduction. To boost hellfires viability in high level play, they would need to get rid of failsafe (or make it c class only), increase hellfire RoF, or make dumbfire on par with tow/nade at least in terms of speed and spread - in a prior iteration, i forget when now, maybe 6-9 months ago, hellfires had a fast, tight dumbfire. It was great and (I think_ cant rem) you saw hellfires a bit in high level play. Bring that back devs, please.

[Thorgald]

Highchu, on December 12 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

• Reduce damage based on distance of target

Yeah that only works on stuff that isn't self propelled (like bullets).

[fingerknitter]

Krellus, on December 17 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

Ah, it's true you dont see them much in high level which suggests they are UP in high level games. That's because they have too many disadv compared to tow/nade etc - overall they are outclassed in higher level games. Their UPness is not connected with how "easy" they are to use, which is also somewhat misleading - hellfires are easier for targeting fliers, that's all. Tow/nade etc are easier for ground targets and just about everything else except fliers. Hellfires are harder to use than tow/nade most of the time. you have to put your curson on the target to start the lock, then the foe has about 2 secs to escape. If you are firing a tow, as soon as your cursor is lined up you shoot, and the target has about 1/2 sec to move. And even if he does move, you can detonate for a partial hit. Dumbifre hellfires are just all worse than tow/nade - slower, less dmg, no detonate. For those whinging about hellfires being too easy, well, Tow/nade are easier in most encounters.

The problem with hellfires in high level play is targets are too experienced and dont leave cover for long, simply outgun you with superior secondary RoF out in the open, plus/or facehug with 60% dmg reduction. To boost hellfires viability in high level play, they would need to get rid of failsafe (or make it c class only), increase hellfire RoF, or make dumbfire on par with tow/nade at least in terms of speed and spread - in a prior iteration, i forget when now, maybe 6-9 months ago, hellfires had a fast, tight dumbfire. It was great and (I think_ cant rem) you saw hellfires a bit in high level play. Bring that back devs, please.

...and this is because giving them any buff in performance in high level play would be detrimental to low level play because of their entry level skill floor. The lock-on mechanic as it currently is is what holds the weapon back from properly being buffed in higher level play. Every other weapon has a range of correct and incorrect inputs; aiming, remote detonation and leading, which the application of skill directly applies to. Hellfires are purely dichotomous and have no where to apply skill to to the extent that other secondaries do. This weapon has no way to scale, as leading, aiming, and remote detonation do not exist as skill balance checks!

[fingerknitter]

Thorgald, on December 20 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

Highchu, on December 12 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

• Reduce damage based on distance of target

Yeah that only works on stuff that isn't self propelled (like bullets).

Unless you increase missile spread as time passes, as a way to ensure that random events do not cause friendly missile collisions.

[Krellus]

fingerknitter, on December 20 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Krellus, on December 17 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

Ah, it's true you dont see them much in high level which suggests they are UP in high level games. That's because they have too many disadv compared to tow/nade etc - overall they are outclassed in higher level games. Their UPness is not connected with how "easy" they are to use, which is also somewhat misleading - hellfires are easier for targeting fliers, that's all. Tow/nade etc are easier for ground targets and just about everything else except fliers. Hellfires are harder to use than tow/nade most of the time. you have to put your curson on the target to start the lock, then the foe has about 2 secs to escape. If you are firing a tow, as soon as your cursor is lined up you shoot, and the target has about 1/2 sec to move. And even if he does move, you can detonate for a partial hit. Dumbifre hellfires are just all worse than tow/nade - slower, less dmg, no detonate. For those whinging about hellfires being too easy, well, Tow/nade are easier in most encounters.

The problem with hellfires in high level play is targets are too experienced and dont leave cover for long, simply outgun you with superior secondary RoF out in the open, plus/or facehug with 60% dmg reduction. To boost hellfires viability in high level play, they would need to get rid of failsafe (or make it c class only), increase hellfire RoF, or make dumbfire on par with tow/nade at least in terms of speed and spread - in a prior iteration, i forget when now, maybe 6-9 months ago, hellfires had a fast, tight dumbfire. It was great and (I think_ cant rem) you saw hellfires a bit in high level play. Bring that back devs, please.

...and this is because giving them any buff in performance in high level play would be detrimental to low level play because of their entry level skill floor. The lock-on mechanic as it currently is is what holds the weapon back from properly being buffed in higher level play. Every other weapon has a range of correct and incorrect inputs; aiming, remote detonation and leading, which the application of skill directly applies to. Hellfires are purely dichotomous and have no where to apply skill to to the extent that other secondaries do. This weapon has no way to scale, as leading, aiming, and remote detonation do not exist as skill balance checks!

... thats why you balance them by improving dumbfire, where you can leave room for leading etc. all they reeeeeally need is a tighter dumbfire spread, possibly a touch faster travel time, and hellfires would be viable at all levels.

Edited by Krellus, December 20 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[Aptest]

@fingerknitter

From my short experience, you need a little bit of time with your reticle on the enemy mech before you actually get a lock or even start getting "lockon" signals. gyrating your mouse randomly does not result in any relevant signal.

When I lock on a cloaked mech, I have enough of a read on his position that i can track him with my reticle.  The reason I open with hellfires is that a lot of times small hits with vulcan or SMC don't pull him out of stealth in my experience.

also, suppose im actually fighting a predator. I lock on missiles, fire, and the predator can just shrug of missiles by clicking F twice to cloak and uncloak.

Edited by Aptest, December 21 2013 - 03:39 AM.

[fingerknitter]

Aptest, on December 21 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

@fingerknitter

From my short experience, you need a little bit of time with your reticle on the enemy mech before you actually get a lock or even start getting "lockon" signals. gyrating your mouse randomly does not result in any relevant signal.
You only need pass over a target and it will lock-on
When I lock on a cloaked mech, I have enough of a read on his position that i can track him with my reticle.  The reason I open with hellfires is that a lot of times small hits with vulcan or SMC don't pull him out of stealth in my experience.
If you aim properly and hit them, yes, they will come out of stealth. The only issue arises with a rocketeer, who's seekers DO NOT maintain their soft seeking which, I would switch with HF lock ons on cloaked units.
also, suppose im actually fighting a predator. I lock on missiles, fire, and the predator can just shrug of missiles by clicking F twice to cloak and uncloak.
The cooldown is the same, whether you manually deactivate it or if you get hit while cloaked. And there is a cooldown for it, so you can't just hit F twice as you say. Have you unlocked the predator yet_ Its loads of fun

[Aptest]

1. i stand corrected they do lock on even if i just swipe the reticle over the cloakd. Maybe add a lock delay of about half a second to make sure the lock is intentional_

2. to the best of my knowledge the pred is designed to do what i used to do with the bruiser before hellfires got changed such that they suck in close ranges and TTK went up because HP of mechs went up - meaning, play ambush predator. Using true stealth to do it now, when i've done it a lot and quite well without it, feels like cheating.

but i gather it has a close range wall hack. i guess that's why it's hard for me to sneak up on them up close.