212 replies to this topic

[Xacius]

HatesYourFace, on December 30 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

I think the poll should have been:

Do you guys want mechs that move like tanks or jets_

This has been the fundamental schism in our ranks since day one, some of us want Steel Battalion/Mech Warrior...some of us want Armored Core/Gundam. I do not think it is possible to please both, but it's what Hawken is trying to do.

EDIT: As far as competitive games needing multiple evasive options: I'd cite World of Tanks as an example of a succesful game with NO dodging or evasive options at all really, even driving full speed in the lightest tank likely won't save you from enemy fire.

It wasn't really a poll.  Moreso speculation as to why Hawken seems to have trouble retaining its competitive playerbase.  

WoT is more a mech simulator than anything.  It's known for being slow-paced and tactical.  Hawken is reminiscent of an Arena FPS, and as such should have deeper, more skill-based gameplay.  You said it yourself: it's not possible to please both the mech simulator (tactical) crowd and mech FPS arena (skill) playerbase.  At some point, ADH is going to have to choose a side and stick to it.  

The devs have made changes to cater to the FPS crowd.   They had their chance to make the game a mech simulator, and MWO provided a considerably better experience.  During HAB, they admitted that they've been leaning towards the FPS side since the OB launch.  I vote that they go further, more towards the skill-based Armored Core side of things if they're interested in retaining a sizable playerbase.

Edited by Xacius, December 30 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[Deadly_Peanut]

people play a game for awhile, get bored and leave.  some come back some don't.  

let's try not to make a big conspiracy theory over it...

yeeeshhhh.... :facepalm:

[comic_sans]

Haven't been playing much simply due to IRL being enormously frustrating.  Can't wait til things even out around here so I can go back to good things, but it'll be a week or two.

And yeah peanut, dead on.

Edited by comic_sans, December 30 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[HatesYourFace]

Xacius, on December 30 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

HatesYourFace, on December 30 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

I think the poll should have been:

Do you guys want mechs that move like tanks or jets_

This has been the fundamental schism in our ranks since day one, some of us want Steel Battalion/Mech Warrior...some of us want Armored Core/Gundam. I do not think it is possible to please both, but it's what Hawken is trying to do.

EDIT: As far as competitive games needing multiple evasive options: I'd cite World of Tanks as an example of a succesful game with NO dodging or evasive options at all really, even driving full speed in the lightest tank likely won't save you from enemy fire.

It wasn't really a poll.  Moreso speculation as to why Hawken seems to have trouble retaining its competitive playerbase.  

WoT is more a mech simulator than anything.  It's known for being slow-paced and tactical.  Hawken is reminiscent of an Arena FPS, and as such should have deeper, more skill-based gameplay.  You said it yourself: it's not possible to please both the mech simulator (tactical) crowd and mech FPS arena (skill) playerbase.  At some point, ADH is going to have to choose a side and stick to it.  

The devs have made changes to cater to the FPS crowd.   They had their chance to make the game a mech simulator, and MWO provided a considerably better experience.  During HAB, they admitted that they've been leaning towards the FPS side since the OB launch.  I vote that they go further, more towards the skill-based Armored Core side of things if they're interested in retaining a sizable playerbase.

I agree with you mostly, but personally what captured me about this game was the combination of the two elements. There are already plenty of good slow paced simulators, and plenty of awesome arcade shooters out there. I'd hesitate to go to far in either direction lest you lose what makes Hawken...Hawken and you end up with a paltry clone of some other more popular game. Of course...it's all a moot point if the game fails, so in the end I'm "for" whatever keeps people playing. On that note I think the upcoming  clan support will help tremendously in retaining our competitive player base.

[Xacius]

Deadly_Peanut, on December 30 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

people play a game for awhile, get bored and leave.  some come back some don't.  

let's try not to make a big conspiracy theory over it...

yeeeshhhh.... :facepalm:

Most of the competitive playerbase ditched the game months ago.  There are reasons for this.

[RedVan]

I'm not even hitting 5hrs a week. I recently was gone for a month and a half, and really didnt even miss it that much tbh. I'm about to start 10 mo of military training and don't anticipate missing it. I'm more worried about missing titanfall and star citizen play time.

One of my biggest concerns is the lack of support for competitive play. Variations in balance and changes to gameplay can be worked around through rule sets. This also helps the devs see what people like on a competitive level. Why is that important_  The competitive level is where people generally know the game fairly well, and actually are working as teams to give the best representation of how gameplay is.

Another big concern is the game being slowed down. Big targets, high splash weaponry, and low movement options isn't challenging at all. I've argued since... I can't even remember when first, probably CB at least, that there should be air dodge. People vehemently argued against it for the longest time, then they added it. People realized it was actually quite awesome, as it reduced the stupid easy floating targed syndrome of old. But then, airdodge was eclipsed by better internal options, and an interesting movement mechanic took the wayside again...

Other things like increasing the dodge cool down time also plays into it. Or limiting dodge to 3-4 times due to low fuel...  Just give all the mechs the same dam fast cool down. Give light mechs low armor and high linear speed, heavy mechs high armor and low linear speed...  Not that hard.

[Xacius]

^Completely agreed

Edited by Xacius, December 30 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[plons]

i'm playing again since coop bot destruction came ....why..._ because i like the arcade style
i almost never play in other gamemodes  because not many players seem to understand teamplay

[HatesYourFace]

I'm not sure a complete overhaul of the movement system and/or speed of the game would be possible at this point...The maps would have to be tweaked if not completely redesigned, weapons would have to be rebalanced, abilites, health totals...I mean what you guys are proposing is no small task. All your points are valid but I just don't see how it could be reasonably accomplished, especially by such a small team.

In the end you have to remember that they probably can't make the game they really want either, just the best one they can with what they have. Sometimes people forget how much compromise and corner cutting goes into making something and they will pine over what they would have done, not realizing how little they would have had to work with if placed in the developers shoes.

Hawken is constantly held up in comparison to games that have been around longer and are produced by huge companies with huge budgets, while Hawken was made by an extremely small team with what I imagine is an equally extremely small budget. I think some of you could give them more credit for the game being as good as it is. It could be and by all rights should be much worse given its origins.

[Exeon]

CS and HAWKEN are very similar except in terms of pin point accuracy. Both are heavily based on movement, map knowledge is vey important, and teamwork is the most powerful thing in both. One thing hawken offers over other competitive FPS is an actual TTK, world of tanks does this as well but in a drastically different way. I'd like to see more people scrimming when it's available again, I'm not certain a skill increase is truly necessary. On the otherhand I'm definitely for any interesting mechanics that raise the skill ceiling.

[Exeon]

HatesYourFace, on December 30 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

Hawken is constantly held up in comparison to games that have been around longer and are produced by huge companies with huge budgets, while Hawken was made by an extremely small team with what I imagine is an equally extremely small budget.

They received 18 million from 2 companies(8 & 10), I wouldn't say extremely small.

[HatesYourFace]

Exeon, on December 30 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

HatesYourFace, on December 30 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

Hawken is constantly held up in comparison to games that have been around longer and are produced by huge companies with huge budgets, while Hawken was made by an extremely small team with what I imagine is an equally extremely small budget.

They received 18 million from 2 companies(8 & 10), I wouldn't say extremely small.

That's peanuts compared to the budgets of some of the big triple A franchises like Halo, COD, Titanfall, Battlefield etc..

[RedVan]

HatesYourFace, on December 30 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

I'm not sure a complete overhaul of the movement system and/or speed of the game would be possible at this point...The maps would have to be tweaked if not completely redesigned, weapons would have to be rebalanced, abilites, health totals...I mean what you guys are proposing is no small task. All your points are valid but I just don't see how it could be reasonably accomplished, especially by such a small team.

In the end you have to remember that they probably can't make the game they really want either, just the best one they can with what they have. Sometimes people forget how much compromise and corner cutting goes into making something and they will pine over what they would have done, not realizing how little they would have had to work with if placed in the developers shoes.

Hawken is constantly held up in comparison to games that have been around longer and are produced by huge companies with huge budgets, while Hawken was made by an extremely small team with what I imagine is an equally extremely small budget. I think some of you could give them more credit for the game being as good as it is. It could be and by all rights should be much worse given its origins.

They've done it before...  Remember the complete internal overhaul_

Maps etc...  that wouldnt need to be changed as they have already worked with shorter dodge cooldowns...

[Xacius]

HatesYourFace, on December 30 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

I'm not sure a complete overhaul of the movement system and/or speed of the game would be possible at this point...The maps would have to be tweaked if not completely redesigned, weapons would have to be rebalanced, abilites, health totals...I mean what you guys are proposing is no small task. All your points are valid but I just don't see how it could be reasonably accomplished, especially by such a small team.

It's always possible.  Something as simple as implementing the following mechanic could drastically overhaul the game's speed.  

Option 1: Modify flight mechanics.  Holding spacebar will activate the current hover state.  At any time during this hover state, the player can press shift to lock altitude and enter an “all range mode,” effectively the new “Boost.”  During this state the player can move in any direction with immense control* (imagine current hovering mechanics being as responsive as walking/running).  The speed and amount of control are dependent on the mech’s altitude. Speed and accel are reduced the higher the mech is locked in Hoverboost.  Weapons are usable in this mode, as is dodging.  Weapon spread would increase during this mode to compensate for increased maneuverability.  
*Since thrusters are mounted on the back of each mech, it makes sense that hovering backwards would be slower than hovering forwards.  

I'm familiar with the UDK.  Give me a dev build and one week.  I'll modify it myself on a volunteer basis. Oh sweet holy fuzzy bunny, I can dream.  


The players have asked for an increase in speed.  Devs, at one point, reduced speeds to cater to the casuals that complained about the game being too fast.  They reversed that very same decision months later when similar players complained that "the game felt sluggish... was too slow."  

I think it's time for an increase in speed to see how the game plays out (give the comp community a chance to balance ).  Remove the derpy spacebarfloat and replace it with a variable air dynamics system.  Overhaul air combat (not just for mechs with air dynamics) and give the game more speed on the ground.

Edited by Xacius, December 30 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[Exeon]

Lightspeed ground fighter jet air please

[peacecraftSLD]

Xacius, on December 30 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Option 1: Modify flight mechanics.  Holding spacebar will activate the current hover state.  At any time during this hover state, the player can press shift to lock altitude and enter an “all range mode,” effectively the new “Boost.”  During this state the player can move in any direction with immense control* (imagine current hovering mechanics being as responsive as walking/running).  The speed and amount of control are dependent on the mech’s altitude. Speed and accel are reduced the higher the mech is locked in Hoverboost.  Weapons are usable in this mode, as is dodging.  Weapon spread would increase during this mode to compensate for increased maneuverability.  
*Since thrusters are mounted on the back of each mech, it makes sense that hovering backwards would be slower than hovering forwards.  

I like this idea. I think this will add fun to the game.


Back to the topic though, I think the longest break I have had with this game was a week and that was for a vacation. I don't think I'll take anything longer than that, I really enjoy this game. I welcome the changes the devs make whether it drastically changed the game or if there is a minor change. I just like piloting my Mech.

[Coelacanth]

I took a long break when the failsafe patch hit mainly because I didn't want to deal with the explosive hugs, I'm back to playing now that it got reigned in

[Rasti]

Longest break I've had so far was about 1-2 months quite a while ago. Just didn't feel like playing that time if I remember correctly.

Currently haven't played Hawken in over a week.
University keeps me fairly busy even during the holidays, other games like Starbound or Planetary Annihilation have sucked up my gaming time as well.
I've also finally managed to figure out why my Skyrim was always crashing after I upgraded to my current PC, fixed it and am now modding it to death, which isn't as bad of a thing as it sounds.
Aaaand there goes my time for Hawken ...

Also, dunno whether to be okay with that flight mechanic proposal or to be disgusted by it.
Probably would have to play it before I could properly judge.
Might be interesting tho if the devs ever get the idea to implement an actually 'flying' mech.

[StubbornPuppet]

This is about the only game I play right now.  I am having a great time.  The thing that draws me most to Hawken is that it has steered clear of the current trend in online FPS games for death to be almost instantaneous.  I don't find it fun at all to play games like COD, where all it takes is 1-3 bullets to kill (even if that's more "realistic") - it always comes down to who saw who first.  I like being able to "duel it out" - the winner of a direct faceoff is the player who chose the right weapons to fire, the right timing, better dodges, better vantage and better aim.  Hawken does that in spades.

[DerMax]

I play much less now because most top-level players have abandoned the game, and now I have to play in pubs with low-levels or high-level noobs.

This happened to me the other day: an all-30 TDM going on, a fairly tight and interesting game, then one guy's game crushes, he leaves the match, and instead a LEVEL-ONE newbie joins. The guy dies over 10 times, kills no-one and ruins the match for everyone involved. I press F5, type "quit" and don't play for several days.

I have absolutely no idea why low-levels are allowed to join high-level matches. Having teammates who installed the game an hour ago is always frustrating.

Also, I don't care whether the teams are balanced or not. I want to play in matches wherein every single player is decent and knows the ropes.

To sum up, I want MMR-restricted servers back. In any form.

Edited by DerMax, December 30 2013 - 08:44 AM.