201 replies to this topic

[The_Silencer]

h0B0, on January 04 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Silencer, i believe my statement speaks for itself. And it concerns all the specific scenarios that can arise.

If you are referring to me being a bit blunt with my interactions with HWK lately. Read the reply to Aregon.

Er.. I was just trying to understand on whether you were adressing that half of your previousx2 post to me or not. Other than that.. no clue on what are you talkign about, really.

[comic_sans]

It bears mentioning that hestoned packs his scout with an advanced repair kit, extractor, and basic failsafe, so his is basically designed to not die on an orb, if I remember the icons for the internals correctly.  Thinkin he packs an orb 3, too.

Edited by comic_sans, January 04 2014 - 05:05 PM.

[flimsy]

The flak is the problem:

https://community.pl...t-medium-range/

Edited by flimsy, January 04 2014 - 05:15 PM.

[The_Silencer]

I've always thought that it's its velocity (thus not its fuel tank)..

[flimsy]

Exeon, on January 03 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

I think this is a good internal combination and the scout is not a problem, people just don't know how to hit players who use its mobility properly so it seems strong. Go fight any skilled player in a raider around health orbs, I guarantee he walks out with more health than the scout did.

I think the question then becomes, why do so many top players use the scout so much, even in games with other top players_ If it offers no advantage, you'd expect it to be no more popular than any other mech.

[comic_sans]

flimsy, on January 04 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Exeon, on January 03 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

I think this is a good internal combination and the scout is not a problem, people just don't know how to hit players who use its mobility properly so it seems strong. Go fight any skilled player in a raider around health orbs, I guarantee he walks out with more health than the scout did.

I think the question then becomes, why do so many top players use the scout so much, even in games with other top players_ If it offers no advantage, you'd expect it to be no more popular than any other mech.

Fun.  Fun!  It's the most fun, at least for me.  Zoom zoom, yo.  You watched condom slap me in my scout those last few matches, but damn if it wasn't fun.

This is how I feel in one, every game, even when I'm whiny.

Edited by comic_sans, January 04 2014 - 07:44 PM.

[tek1]

I really don't get why so much ppl say that the scout is op.

pros:
+ speed
+ flak
+ low dodge timer

cons:
- lowest fuel of ALL mechs (about 50-60% of the amount all the other mechs have)
- lowest armor of ALL mechs (470 base armor lol)
- lowest fuel generator of ALL mechs (6 l/sec as the other mechs have ~9-10 l/sec)

Soooo - the mech with the fuel symbol is basically the mech with the lowest amount of fuel available.
Yepp - the scout has about 50% the fuel of every other mechs, so you can say that their ability just gives them the same amount of fuel every other mech has ALL the time - on a cooldown. Wow - that's totally op.

I don't say that the scout isn't one of the best mechs of hawken but I bet my ass and half a potatoe that most of the ppl screaming that the scout is op are just bad players who would suck completly if they would play the scout themself as it takes a lot more tactic then most other mechs do. Simply running into a fight will get your low armor down to 0 faster then you can imagine.

[Dictatorfish]

tek1, on January 04 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

I bet my ass and half a potatoe that most of the ppl screaming that the scout is op are just bad players who would suck completly if they would play the scout themself as it takes a lot more tactic then most other mechs do.

Actually, as a relatively unskilled player, I consider the flak-Scout by far the easiest to do well in. Raider is a close second. Both are quick, both are bursty, both have "OMG get the **** outta there!" abilities.  EOC-Infiltrator isn't bad either, but I get into a very bad (spammy) habit if I play that for too long.

Anyway, Scout and Raider are easy mode.  Rather like Rocketeers in level <10 servers.

[RedVan]

flimsy, on January 04 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Exeon, on January 03 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

I think this is a good internal combination and the scout is not a problem, people just don't know how to hit players who use its mobility properly so it seems strong. Go fight any skilled player in a raider around health orbs, I guarantee he walks out with more health than the scout did.

I think the question then becomes, why do so many top players use the scout so much, even in games with other top players_ If it offers no advantage, you'd expect it to be no more popular than any other mech.

They don't. And those that do use it because they like the speed, and they acknowledge the necessity of good teamwork because scout is extremely weak w/o it at high level play

[Leonhardt]

flimsy, on January 04 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Exeon, on January 03 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

I think this is a good internal combination and the scout is not a problem, people just don't know how to hit players who use its mobility properly so it seems strong. Go fight any skilled player in a raider around health orbs, I guarantee he walks out with more health than the scout did.

I think the question then becomes, why do so many top players use the scout so much, even in games with other top players_ If it offers no advantage, you'd expect it to be no more popular than any other mech.

There seems to be this huge disconnect here. You see top tier pilots play the game to have fun just like anyone else. Why play the slower classes that can't dance_ Thats not much fun. Instead I'd much rather have fun playing a class that is fun in one of the few environments where it is viable.

In a lot of ways the classes with over 1.1 dodge CD just aren't fun to play. They are the product of a failed limiter on movement in an attempt to separate the identity of classes. If it were up to me every mech in the game would have a dodge CD of 1 sec at the most.

EDIT: This dodge cooldown increase in classes plays a very large role in burst dominance in game. This is something I plan to bring up on the cockpit though so I won't write too much about it now.

Edited by Leonhardt, January 04 2014 - 10:21 PM.

[ThatDamnedBoedy]

Exeon, on January 03 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

I think this is a good internal combination and the scout is not a problem, people just don't know how to hit players who use its mobility properly so it seems strong. Go fight any skilled player in a raider around health orbs, I guarantee he walks out with more health than the scout did.

fixed it for you

Edited by ThatDamnedBoedy, January 04 2014 - 10:33 PM.

[flimsy]

Leonhardt, on January 04 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

flimsy, on January 04 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Exeon, on January 03 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

I think this is a good internal combination and the scout is not a problem, people just don't know how to hit players who use its mobility properly so it seems strong. Go fight any skilled player in a raider around health orbs, I guarantee he walks out with more health than the scout did.

I think the question then becomes, why do so many top players use the scout so much, even in games with other top players_ If it offers no advantage, you'd expect it to be no more popular than any other mech.

There seems to be this huge disconnect here. You see top tier pilots play the game to have fun just like anyone else. Why play the slower classes that can't dance_ Thats not much fun. Instead I'd much rather have fun playing a class that is fun in one of the few environments where it is viable.

In a lot of ways the classes with over 1.1 dodge CD just aren't fun to play. They are the product of a failed limiter on movement in an attempt to separate the identity of classes. If it were up to me every mech in the game would have a dodge CD of 1 sec at the most.

I don't find that explanation convincing. I think the combination of game mechanics that reward speed and burst damage make the scout fundamentally powerful, and the flak cannon's high DPS, high burst burst damage and medium range (rather than short, as it should be), make you powerful as a player when you use it. Which yes, is probably more fun than playing a weaker mech.

The power of mechs very closely correlates with their prevalence in high-tier games. For a while a lot of people were in EOC infiltrators, but the numbers dropped off after the weapon heat generation was bumped. Now you see fewer infiltrators and general, and most of them use the HEAT. Did the EOC infiltrator somehow get fundamentally less fun_

Edited by flimsy, January 05 2014 - 12:49 AM.

[ThatDamnedBoedy]

tek1, on January 04 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

I really don't get why so much ppl say that the scout is op.

This I get.

[Leonhardt]

flimsy, on January 04 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:

I don't find that explanation convincing. I think the combination of game mechanics that reward speed and burst damage make the scout fundamentally powerful, and the flak cannon's high DPS, high burst burst damage and medium range (rather than short, as it should be), make you powerful as a player when you use it. Which yes, is probably more fun than playing a weaker mech.

The power of mechs very closely correlates with their prevalence in high-tier games. For a while a lot of people were in EOC infiltrators, but the numbers dropped off after the weapon heat generation was bumped. Now you see fewer infiltrators and general, and most of them use the HEAT. Did the EOC infiltrator somehow get fundamentally less fun_

Infiltrator got slower and scout got faster. Fast is fun slow is not and I was never a huge fan of EoC which btw was also nerfed in damage quite a bit since that patch (Raider patch) and the flak has been buffed twice in damage since. I still play infiltrator and its fun, but scout is just so much more fluid and fun to use . Also just FYI because I don't know how far back you have been playing the game, but A-classes in general have been a popular choice for a variety of reasons.

We have all talked about how movement is important in this game. Fast movement has a causal relationship with dodge CD. The higher it is the slower and fewer options you have for movement. You can buy into the theory that because so many people use it then its OP or you could stop and think about game mechanics and understand the the true underlying issue is that too many mechs have dodge CD's above 1 sec.

Anything above 1.25 and the "dance" is pretty much gone. I first got into this game because of the "dance" and now only a few mechs are able to do it anymore. Each and every single time they nerf movement they stamp out one more mechs ability to "dance" and I just sit here shaking my head wondering when everyone will catch on.

The systematic removal of movement options in this game has not only been the death of depth and dueling in this game it has also been the number one reason I can think of why people leave. It creates mech imbalance, weapon imbalance and most of all it just isn't fun. The slower and slower it gets the easier it becomes and the more I feel like I am playing MWO and not Hawken.

Sometimes I feel Hawken died after CB 3

[Sylhiri]

Leonhardt, on January 04 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

We have all talked about how movement is important in this game. Fast movement has a causal relationship with dodge CD. The higher it is the slower and fewer options you have for movement. You can buy into the theory that because so many people use it then its OP or you could stop and think about game mechanics and understand the the true underlying issue is that too many mechs have dodge CD's above 1 sec.

What if every mech, regardless of class, had a 1 second dodge rate.

[flimsy]

Leonhardt, on January 04 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

scout stuff

I don't think the scout should be slowed down. I just want the damage falloff on the flak decreased, so the flak scout optimal engagement range is closer than it is now. I think the scout optimal engagement range is too close to the mean range of the rest of the weapons, which means that scouts really only have to avoid long-range fights.

I also think that the fact that most of the weapons operate optimally in a square loosely bounded by the AA enclosure is a problem as well, and that there should be more of a distribution of weapon power relative to range than there currently is, so my criticism isn't limited to the flak scout.

Edited by flimsy, January 04 2014 - 11:36 PM.

[Xacius]

tek1, on January 04 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

I really don't get why so much ppl say that the scout is op.

pros:
+ speed
+ flak
+ low dodge timer

cons:
- lowest fuel of ALL mechs (about 50-60% of the amount all the other mechs have)
- lowest armor of ALL mechs (470 base armor lol)
- lowest fuel generator of ALL mechs (6 l/sec as the other mechs have ~9-10 l/sec)

Soooo - the mech with the fuel symbol is basically the mech with the lowest amount of fuel available.
Yepp - the scout has about 50% the fuel of every other mechs, so you can say that their ability just gives them the same amount of fuel every other mech has ALL the time - on a cooldown. Wow - that's totally op.

I don't say that the scout isn't one of the best mechs of hawken but I bet my ass and half a potatoe that most of the ppl screaming that the scout is op are just bad players who would suck completly if they would play the scout themself as it takes a lot more tactic then most other mechs do. Simply running into a fight will get your low armor down to 0 faster then you can imagine.

Lowest fuel - this doesn't mean much when most competent players use the full Fuel Converter internal.  Fuel regen - see fuel converter.  

With full armor tuning, the Scout still has close to 600 armor.  The difference in speed is far too great given the difference in armor compared to other mechs.  The mech is already top tier with the Heat, and it's not terrible with the Mini-Flak.  The Flak is simply too much.  I can impact almost any situation far greater with a Flak Scout than I can with any other mech.  The Flak has the 3rd highest burst out of every weapon, yet the 4th highest dps too.  On the fastest mech in the game, this is incredibly strong.  

In order to understand how powerful the scout is, you need to understand the nature by which the Flak fires.  In between shots, the user has time to move around and evade their opponents.  At any point during these evasive maneuvers, the user can stop, check back in, and hit another 129 damage burst.  All the while, sustained fire users have to keep their target in sights at all times in order to deal similar damage.  You can't fire and boost at the same time unless you're a Raider, and dodging is on a limited resource.  

Essentially, you have to maintain far more accuracy in order to be just as effective with sustained fire weapons vs. the Flak.

Edited by Xacius, January 05 2014 - 12:03 AM.

[Bazookagofer]

Leonhardt, on January 04 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

flimsy, on January 04 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Exeon, on January 03 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

I think this is a good internal combination and the scout is not a problem, people just don't know how to hit players who use its mobility properly so it seems strong. Go fight any skilled player in a raider around health orbs, I guarantee he walks out with more health than the scout did.

I think the question then becomes, why do so many top players use the scout so much, even in games with other top players_ If it offers no advantage, you'd expect it to be no more popular than any other mech.

There seems to be this huge disconnect here. You see top tier pilots play the game to have fun just like anyone else. Why play the slower classes that can't dance_ Thats not much fun. Instead I'd much rather have fun playing a class that is fun in one of the few environments where it is viable.

In a lot of ways the classes with over 1.1 dodge CD just aren't fun to play. They are the product of a failed limiter on movement in an attempt to separate the identity of classes. If it were up to me every mech in the game would have a dodge CD of 1 sec at the most.

EDIT: This dodge cooldown increase in classes plays a very large role in burst dominance in game. This is something I plan to bring up on the cockpit though so I won't write too much about it now.

Mleh, I have been around a while on internet games, RPG's etc and there is one thing I see in every game is this : The most powerful stuff is usually played the most. There are people who play the class because they like them but most usually play because it gives them an edge. When HF got buffed we saw a massive influx of HF users. Are you going to say people changed mechs because they like the slower stuff_ No because it would be BS. They chose it because it EZY mode. And given Scouts, speed, massive burst, get out of jail free card it is a bit over the top, it not super OP but it does have a lot of advantages over other mechs...

[LordTemujin]

I find this thread hilarious for several reasons

1. People flat out ignored the original post wherein I said the scout is perfectly fine and just went off on rants about it
2. People are pretty butthurt

Back on topic, I more want to discuss how the scout interacts with internals and with its currently orb regen value is completely broken with just two items.

The point of the thread was to try and figure out the LOGIC behind creating a high damage, extremely fast, TANK.

The scout is fast_ Makes sense, I can deal with that. The scout has damage_ cool, dodge better I can deal with that. The scout has 600+450hp(adv arm + orb III)((this doesn't factor in anything but what he is carrying) and is regening at 100hp a second_ no can do compadre, no weapons system in the game can drop that fuzzy bunny.

[v009]

Xacius, on January 03 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

h0B0, on January 03 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

snip

Movement actually got buffed in Ascension if you factor in tuning options.

Although Hydraulics movement wise the mechs are faster. Boost speed and dodge cool down wise most of the mechs are slower.


A class: Thruster speed before 34.2m/s. Dodge cool down before Min:1 secs max: 1.25 secs.


Berserker: Little bit slower boost speed (33.12m/s) wise and minimum dodge cool down 1.16 secs and max 1.45 secs without tuning.

Infiltrator: Can have faster boost speed (min: 31.68 m/s and max: 36.72 m/s) and lower dodge cool down with tuning. Dodge cool down almost as low as before of 1 sec minimum (now 1.08 secs max tuning and 1.37 secs with 0 tuning).

Reaper: Little bit slower boost speed (32.4 m/s) and higher dodge cool down of 1.33 secs.

Scout: Only mech that is faster boost speed without tuning and has the lowest dodge cool down.

Technician: Slowest A class boost speed (30.96 m/s) wise and highest dodge cool down of 1.54 secs and minimum of 1.25 secs with max tuning.


B Class: Thruster speed before: 30m/s  Dodge cool down before Min: 1.25 secs max: 1.50 secs.


Assualt: Slower thruster speed ( with minimum dodge cool down of 1.29 secs with max tuning.

Brusier: Slowest B class speed wise (boost speed: 28.08 m/s and hydraulics: 15 m/s) and second highest dodge cool down on B class with 1.54 secs

CRT: Boost speed is faster with max tuning (32.4 m/s) but highest B class dodge cool down of 1.58 secs.

Predator: Faster thruster speed with max tuning and 1.5 secs dodge cool down.

Raider: Very small thruster speed change (without tuning 30.24 m/s) and fastest B class (with tuning 35.28 m/s). Dodge cool down is 1.37 secs.

Sexy Shooter: Second slowest B class and small thruster speed nerf (28.8m/s). Dodge cool down is more close to its base 1.45 secs (currently).


C class: Thruster speed before: 28.57m/s  Dodge cool down before Min: 1.50 secs max: 1.75 secs.


Brawler: Slowest mech without tuning. Thruster (min: 20.16 m/s. max: 25.2 m/s). Dodge cool down (min: 1.71 secs. max 2 secs).

Grenadier: Second slowest thruster speed (23.76 m/s without tuning speed on Brawlers thruster accounted) Dodge cool down (min 1.5 secs. max: 1.79 secs).

Rocketeer: Thruster speed ( 24.48 m/s). Dodge cool down (1.62 secs).

Vanguard: We all know vanguards thruster speed is very good out of all the C classes and the dodge cool down of 1.54 secs is very good for its class.


As you can see a lot of the mechs boost speed are a lot slower. Especially the C class excluding (Vanguard with max thruster tuning). The C class gets the worst stats as usual (speed and dodge cool down wise). I think that is what is hobo trying to point out. Without speed tuning a lot of the classes are slower from before. Also as Redvan pointed out the higher dodge cool down with the slow boost speed on some mechs makes the game slower.

Also thanks to Lumi's (https://community.pl...-of-mech-stats/). It made it easier to get the stats with out having to (Alt+tab) a lot through my game.