42 replies to this topic

[X3P0]

Exeon, on January 27 2014 - 01:14 AM, said:

X3P0, on January 26 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

Quote

When you actually play the game for more than a few days you'll see what I was actually talking about instead of writing long walls of texts that include only one paragraph of combined sentences pertaining to the actual topic trying to be discussed here. As someone who watched the IO scrims and someone who keeps claiming how competitive they are in other games I'd assume you could pay attention to what is going on a bit better. The technicians are no longer mechs that take part in combat, no, that would limit their maximum potential. Every game involving tech involved the tech sitting well behind is front line rotating between low health players topping them off and rarely anything else. Combat tech(healing) is still viable and something that I will try and use in competitive play down the road but why would you ever utilize it for its mid tier capabilities when it has god tier capabilities you can activate by just standing still behind a wall eating a sandwhich with some good ol' Space Jam on the second monitor with your right mouse button taped down facing in a direction so that mechs can walk in front of you. I love the tech and have been one of its biggest supporters from day one but, I'm not going to support a play style that involves the mech never taking part in combat.

Now you made one good point which has been brought up quite a few times before your day(jan 22nd): Our repair times are extremely long and that is a very boring aspect of the game, fixing this incredibly boring aspect by requiring a tech is not how you make your game more enjoyable. Both of these problems need to be addressed.

Edited by Exeon, Today, 04:12 PM.

Although interesting to read you dismiss text on the basis that you feel you played a game longer_ In the real world its not far from the guy who need a coach after playing for 300+ hours. Stop you in your tracks there where mental acuity differs from one person to another which is why researchers do not trollolol "this guys only been studying brain neurology a month".

You will not be taken seriously if you cannot compose yourself better than that. Instead of trying so hard to dismiss what others have said you can try, thinking of acceptable responses to statements and inquiries other than ranting about play time, which might I add is questionable how much it did for you beyond any other use of time in the world.

If your aim is to use scare tactics to rid opposition of your ideas, to qualm the voice of the player base I think you have a lot to learn in the world. You do not address a single line in your response other than what xacious mentioned about repair times - and tech being a solution to that issue that requires more from a player than "lol reducing repair time". You do not address a sheer inability to secure kills or the lack of coordination leading to problems present meta, because you feel you, on your word are above addressing valid statements due to playing a game for however many hours it took you to get this "enlightened". I do not think your setting any records there but I digress.

If your qualm comes down to, not how to efficiently deal with tech, but that you are angry about the play styles people have taken accustom to in the last week in an ever evolving meta; perhaps you should look at next week. If you are displeased with the effectiveness you have with tech when you play it in a specific manner - You might want to try experimenting. If you are frustrated an enemy team has not developed strategies to eliminate your tech or front line for that matter - maybe you should give them some time to develop strategies to get past a front line, it will help them in the future when they need to bypass players to tackle an objective.

In your story of the invulnerable tech you mention 2 players being in some impenetrable back line in the fortress of solitude. You make no mention of how the remaining 6 versus 4 conflict is too hard to handle for you or your teamates. How you are lacking the ability or forethought to take advantage of a situation or opening, because that would require teamwork and trained players able to read and adapt who think beyond I do not know, "lol techs here stalemate game over"

Does your point really come down to :I do not like the playstyle that I or others have displayed: when playing tech_ A point about as valid as "I do not like when rocketeers jump up lunch missiles and hide away"_ Because I think there is more swirling around in that brain than the situation combat we have seen recently, which you yourself would think is a complete impasse due to your knowledge and experience.

My argument is this: The technician allows a team to take fire without it actually mattering while the enemy team can't even see let alone hurt him. Their teammates fall back for 4-5 seconds at a time and they're back in combat at full health. While the most skilled teams may in fact be able to deal with this, you don't balance a game based on what the top .0000000000001% of players are capable of. As to your "why don't you take advantage of the mech dropping back" statement, you're ignoring the fact that pushing on 4 players is quite hard.   Additionally, the 5th mech is already at full health and fighting alongside his teammates within 3-6 seconds.

As to my first sentence, it was not meant to discredit your opinion but poking at the fact that you appeared to have missed my point almost entirely, writing nearly your entire post based on something I made no comment of. I'm all for a ever changing meta and interesting gameplay that mechs like the tech can bring but, they are practically not even playing the game in their current implementation.

A few things come into mind; the game should likely be balanced with the future player base in mind. For instance a lot of work and knowledge that is accumulated by newly introduced players or seasoned players for that matter is work and research that has been done to date. For instance imagine a player and how quickly they can come up to speed with things like spreadsheets, recorded play and the currently accessible knowledge base. This is much different than the basis for learning in the future and a lot different than what people had the first week this game was available for play. a 0.0000001% now can easily be 20% in the future, not to mention the sheer amount of players this would refer to with a larger playerbase much like the one the game will sport on release and the time after. I mean at some point should developers even listen to players participating in the scene as is, when they account for what percentage of players. I think its important to take the current varying populations and the future populations into account to formulate a successful game.

Much of this particular thread and the people who post within spawns from high tier play. What occurs in play at the highest tiers is a lot different than what occurs at other levels. To say the game should not be balanced around the higher tier arena is to invalidate concerns and specifics that relate specifically to high tier play. i.e. players experiences with techs that have been noted, versus what many players experience which is the complete opposite of the concerns stated.

Quote

t's not that hard to focus fire and kill the thing

This is a direct testimonial from a player who does not partake in high level but of average level matches. The experience is different and we can all roll alternate accounts to validate that idea.

I can agree the development of the game should keep the spectrum of players in mind and I think we see some pretty active playstyles of technician in lower tier matches which do not portray your concerns with the mech in question. So I am not overly sure of the relevance or whether or not your point of view nullifies your thoughts on the matter. You can see where this leads to confusion I hope at least to some degree.

A fun example might be to use a forum signature that says "Make sure you do not let anything written above influence the development of the game" So I think we can let that one go by.

In relation to missing your points; thought I addressed your points and offered some information on the matter but as we go a long we can more directly and in depth discuss each point you feel was not touched on thoroughly enough to ensure a healthy coverage.

I think much of what I wrote as well as the statistical comparisons and data very much covered the average player and their experience and I am not quite sure how much is left to be said if we leave balance to what happens in a typical game or at 1500-1900 rating. If you or anyone feels there is more depth there feel free to post and we as a community can mull over the options and conditionals as well as the question of balance.

In regards to 2k+ games or the noted experience which again is

Quote

he technician allows a team to take fire without it actually mattering while the enemy team can't even see let alone hurt him. Their teammates fall back for 4-5 seconds at a time and they're back in combat at full health.

... "why don't you take advantage of the mech dropping back" statement, you're ignoring the fact that pushing on 4 players is quite hard.   Additionally, the 5th mech is already at full health and fighting alongside his teammates within 3-6 seconds.

// Warning! Danger will robinson a long post follows pertaining to the above post, proceed with caution!///
;; The closer the technician is to the group the easier it is to combat the situation. In your particular example you note a technician which cannot be physically seen yet is so close to combat that a full heal ensues and the player is back to the front line in 3-6 seconds flat. This leads me to believe that the Technician is literally on the front line based on the maximum possible meters per second bots can travel. You will notice that I mentioned when this is not the case we have a pretty little window to get some big things done. In this scenario we are also in big luck.

Situation 1
You see when the technician is bound so closely to a group in necessity to return combatants to the line we have a scenario where we can really take advantage and wreck some utter havoc. Note the probable position of the tech, out of sight but we see mechs retreating to it or can get this intelligence with relatively little footwork given what items and mechs are available to us. You cant shoot what you cant see, or can you_ We now unveil the arcing weapons selection otherwise known as items like grenade launcher and rev GL. These weapons have a pretty noticeable splash radius compared to our Primary weapons and the selection of secondary weapons.

You see we have an option now to use artillery to shell out the opposition based on the intelligence another player feeds us in our multiplayer game. A thousand variations of this particular issue just got much closer to being solved with the introduction of our artillery.

A simple pillar or corner is not going to save those poor mechs retreating from the front line to their master technician. With the correct arc we can both obliterate retreating mechs as well as discourage the close positioning of the Technician to the front line, forcing a re-position using both time and one of the most valuable resources in the game: know how. You see you form a memory of where to go and what to do when under fire, when you need to see that master technician, but now that is changing constantly with the coordinates of the new position being locked via voice chat and the grenadier adjusting fire accordingly. Not only will this wreck havoc and keep them on their toes but you just forced that Technician to be on the move and the players to second guess their route to said technician keeping them on their toes instead of letting them get comfortable.

-With alternate conditionals and scenarios we can revisit this idea or how to handle this situation if it does not effectively answer your questions, simply re-define the scenario and let specifics including which maps or areas and general positions of both the attacking and defending teams- Just let me know and the community here will hash it out and offer from there experience, possible solutions to your issue.

Situation 2, The mech is right around the front line, or rather adjacent to the line. They are hugging a high wall which prevents much splash or artillery options and mechs just need to glide a few meters over to visit the doctor and get all fixed up. Before discussing options or possible flanks and plays that can be made to alleviate this scenario let us first discuss in this thread other options.

You see in Hawken it is important to realize your team can control the flow of combat so much so that you can at will force an enemy team to re-position and fight where you want them to. Its only after irreversible mistakes have been made where this is impossible or hard to do. Your objective is to not get into the scenario in the first place or to force play at an advantageous position for you team.

They have dug in deep and there Tech is untouchable. Take your ball and go home, force the chase. Not only does the simple play of forcing the chase give your team the outrageous advantage we have all experienced in solo play of landing shots on a chasing target, but it allows us to control the flow of battle and re-position the fight to an area where it is much harder for the Technician to set up shop or the enemy team to get comfortable.

Now you may wonder, what about the score_ Well if you have made irrevocable mistakes and given the enemy a lead at this point, all is not lost. You see among randomly organized generally good high mmr players you can expect a few things including some useful information on their playstyle. You see to get high mmr in the first place they had to adhere to a very specific playstyle. They had to above all farm exp per minute in their activities - unknowingly or not. You got it these guys battle like no other and claw and scratch for every point on the table. You do not gain mmr from doing nothing ladies and gentlemen and these guys have itchy trigger fingers. They want points, their brains are trained for points. The reward mechanism is not firing and the fun is not being had without the acquisition of that exp- They are out for blood and you need to take advantage of this. Without trying these people can play into your hand if you only display the patience and fortitude they will not possess.

Sounds gimmicky, would it ever actually work_ Why would players throw away a game or hand over a lead like that_ What we are playing on here is the psychological factors. It is a game changer putting people who are used to exp/min equaling win or mmr gains into a scenario where there is no exp present and they will get antsy. The force compelling this is so strong that reading this here and now will not proof a player from this experience. During this time we do a few things, put the player off guard - the flow of battle and pace of the game just got rewritten. Players will scramble to get back to their natural state, to the natural order of both the game and their thought process. Not only is a curve ball being thrown, but the reward system and how we have fun or enjoy games just got shut down.

You see our brains release dopamine among other things when we play games. Have you ever played a shooter and had your heart pounding with adrenaline_ Have you ever had a sense of happiness or maybe accomplishment with a digital task that when compared to real life activity you would question its presence_ Our brains are releasing chemicals every day. For instance studies have shown the motor function during gameplay can produce the release of dopamine in our brains. The neurotransmition of this chemical to the receptors in our brains produces some very desirable effects and in part can be related to gaming addiction. You can read more about this in a specific journal which I am sure many have heard before, Nature - an excerpt or abstract can be found here http://www.nature.co...l/393266a0.html

You see we trick our brain not with the level of realism so much in games but by using common neurological pathways and connections created in everyday thought and learning. As if we were doing something else other than playing a video game. This can be helpful if we pursue careers in gaming but mostly I think its more likely an issue that will increase addiction. Either way when we play games we chase the enjoyment we derive from them, shutting that down leaves us like a rat in a cage frantically pressing that level to get our release. If you build it, they will come - If you move the battle, they might just follow against better judgement.

This is a timely maneuver as the closer it is to the end of a match, the harder it is to fool anyone. Ever try to tactically search for someone, using stealth and shadows to surprise them_ How long before you are just running out in the open to draw fire to put an end to the hunt, how quickly are you willing to give up a tactical advantage in order to get the action going. Why do you do this_

////

"We could not re-position the team and we were unable to tactically orchestrate our firing squads to hit targets when open" In this case we have an issue, you likely need to start from the beginning next game and try a little harder not to give an advantage to the enemy. A lot of problems a team can face occur as a result of a situation they forced themselves into. Sometimes with enough mistakes you drove too far off course and need to deal with the situation you or others you trusted have put you in and sometimes this means losing the match. Some circumstances cannot be helped, what is clear is initially you were deserving of those circumstances having gotten there in the first place.

I want to state the ideas around playing with the thought process of the player are methods teams have used to success in the past in gaming. You can say it sounds awfully boring; but the trick is with a little patience - those battle hardened exp chasing bastards will play into your hand and the action continues, only with you having the upper hand this time. The sooner in a match the tactic is put in motion the greater the chance of success.

If you want to add more information or comments on how to combat a specific situation or think there are variables which were not taken into account feel free to post a reply and I can help you tactically discuss the scenario so that you or your team are more prepared in the future. When you hear - always be moving - be sure to take it to the next level and as a group or team incorporate what happens in solo play but instead work as a unit together, as if you were a single player or entity - The closer you get to that uniform same line thinking with your friends - the better the results will be.

Oh boy if that was a long post! Pat yourself on the back for finishing it, or if you did not read it give yourself a pat anyhow for having dodged that one.

Edited by X3P0, January 27 2014 - 03:29 AM.

[Muffintrumpet]

Silverfire, on January 26 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

Taken to PM to sort out before this thread goes even more off topic than it already has.

best of luck with that

[DerMax]

I absolutely hate the tech. It tilts the gameplay into a shallow and dull plane. With an ably tech in your team you are not punished for foolishly taking damage and not thinking about your positioning. Many players have stopped playing because the game has become boring — and that is largely due to the tech.

Another scenario that is even more nauseating is the pocket tech. Oh my.

The introduction of the tech was — undoubtebly — a mistake that the devs still refuse to admit. However, if the tech had to first collect nanites using its Desintegrator, that would make a great mech.

But for now I vote for an absolute ban for the tech from the competitive play.

Edited by DerMax, January 27 2014 - 04:23 AM.

[X3P0]

DerMax, on January 27 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

you are not punished for foolishly taking damage and not thinking about your positioning. Many players have stopped playing because the game has become boring — and that is largely due to the tech.

But for now I vote for an absolute ban for the tech from the competitive play.

I have a few interesting comments on the above.

as for the "you are not punished for taking damage or positioning correctly" note - You have to exit combat and heal up or risk sustained fire. I see that as a pretty big disadvantage as a result of improper play, while your at it you can go get healed up, re-enter combat and get obliterated because the lack of thought put towards positioning and likely be punished by the enemy team the second time around.

as for the game is becoming boring largely due to the tech and players quitting because of its existence; I am sorry but that is definitely not a correct statement. Both in relation to the Technician and the largely part. It does not reflect the thoughts or consensus of the player-base or those who have quit. It can reflect a thought represented by a small group of players who may be vocal but the rest of the insinuation is really just poppycock. The boring/quitting statements in relation to many players have been around long before the techs existence. Your personal experience or general consensus between players you know is one thing to claim the rest is just bonkers. This is known as a fallacy, applying what you perceive from friends or personal experiences to the world or all players.

As far as your personal vote to ban tech from competitive play; I am sure that will prepare players, clans and teams for when they face teams which will use the Technician and the competitive play future of the game. A little fun game between your group of friends is one thing, its a joke to think it would apply to official tournaments of the future. It is simply not the best idea for anyone who wants to seriously consider competitive play. I have seen a few good players make the statement and it makes me chuckle, there is no way they will be around.

Edited by X3P0, January 27 2014 - 05:48 AM.

[DerMax]

X3P0, on January 27 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

DerMax, on January 27 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

you are not punished for foolishly taking damage and not thinking about your positioning. Many players have stopped playing because the game has become boring — and that is largely due to the tech.

But for now I vote for an absolute ban for the tech from the competitive play.

I have a few interesting comments on the above.

as for the "you are not punished for taking damage or positioning correctly" note - You have to exit combat and heal up or risk sustained fire. I see that as a pretty big disadvantage as a result of improper play, while your at it you can go get healed up, re-enter combat and get obliterated because the lack of thought put towards positioning and likely be punished by the enemy team the second time around.

as for the game is becoming boring largely due to the tech and players quitting because of its existence; I am sorry but that is definitely not a correct statement. Both in relation to the Technician and the largely part. It does not reflect the thoughts or consensus of the player-base or those who have quit. It can reflect a thought represented by a small group of players who may be vocal but the rest of the insinuation is really just poppycock. The boring/quitting statements in relation to many players have been around long before the techs existence. Your personal experience or general consensus between players you know is one thing to claim the rest is just bonkers. This is known as a fallacy, applying what you perceive from friends or personal experiences to the world or all players.

As far as your personal vote to ban tech from competitive play; I am sure that will prepare players, clans and teams for when they face teams which will use the Technician and the competitive play future of the game. A little fun game between your group of friends is one thing, its a joke to think it would apply to official tournaments of the future. It is simply not the best idea for anyone who wants to seriously consider competitive play. I have seen a few good players make the statement and it makes me chuckle, there is no way they will be around.

What a bunch of highbrow yet empty rhetoric. Are you posting under a smurf account or are you really trying to argue with a veteran player having been a member for 5 days_

I've been playing since June and I've seen a great many of brilliant players leave the game, in part because of the tech. Do you possess some information on Hawken's playerbase retention numbers other players don't have_ If yes, please spill the beans. If not, stop polluting this thread.

Edited by DerMax, January 27 2014 - 05:59 AM.

[X3P0]

DerMax, on January 27 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

X3P0, on January 27 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

DerMax, on January 27 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

you are not punished for foolishly taking damage and not thinking about your positioning. Many players have stopped playing because the game has become boring — and that is largely due to the tech.

But for now I vote for an absolute ban for the tech from the competitive play.

I have a few interesting comments on the above.

as for the "you are not punished for taking damage or positioning correctly" note - You have to exit combat and heal up or risk sustained fire. I see that as a pretty big disadvantage as a result of improper play, while your at it you can go get healed up, re-enter combat and get obliterated because the lack of thought put towards positioning and likely be punished by the enemy team the second time around.

as for the game is becoming boring largely due to the tech and players quitting because of its existence; I am sorry but that is definitely not a correct statement. Both in relation to the Technician and the largely part. It does not reflect the thoughts or consensus of the player-base or those who have quit. It can reflect a thought represented by a small group of players who may be vocal but the rest of the insinuation is really just poppycock. The boring/quitting statements in relation to many players have been around long before the techs existence. Your personal experience or general consensus between players you know is one thing to claim the rest is just bonkers. This is known as a fallacy, applying what you perceive from friends or personal experiences to the world or all players.

As far as your personal vote to ban tech from competitive play; I am sure that will prepare players, clans and teams for when they face teams which will use the Technician and the competitive play future of the game. A little fun game between your group of friends is one thing, its a joke to think it would apply to official tournaments of the future. It is simply not the best idea for anyone who wants to seriously consider competitive play. I have seen a few good players make the statement and it makes me chuckle, there is no way they will be around.

What a bunch of highbrow yet empty rhetoric. Are you posting under a smurf account or are you really trying to argue with a veteran player having been a member for 5 days_

I've been playing since June and I've seen a great many of brilliant players leave the game, in part because of the tech. Do you possess some information on Hawken's playerbase retention numbers other players don't have_ If yes, please spill the beans. If not, stop polluting this thread.

What do you mean in part, they left LARGELY due to the tech. Unless you simply spout incorrect statements on a regular basis.
Your post date has little relevance nor does your playtime, LARGELY evidenced by the statements you make,
but substantiated by statements which appear earlier in this very thread.

If you are trying to impress people attesting to the legitimacy of you statements and how the community should
blindly believe in everything you type, I think you have come to the wrong place.

I do not have in front of me the statistics any more than you do, but you seem to have a big problem with anyone
who questions the validity of your statements. To suggest the Technician is the predominant reason players discontinue
play is ludicrous.

You could try explaining yourself to the community as to why you feel each statement is legitimate as opposed to attempting
to dismiss it, otherwise you are really adding little of anything to the discussion beyond unsubstantiated claims you refuse to account for. There is no argument to be had, it stopped when you posted, the community discredited the ideas and than you refused to refute the legitimate claims against your statements.

[thedark20]

Getting a bit tired of "The reason that I lose matches: Technician" or "Repair Torch OP". The technician is the slowest Class-A mech in the game, and has the same armor as most of the Class-A mechs. The repair torch has been nerfed, and will be nerfed on February Patch again, so wait for a bit.

Now, from my personal experience. I'm a full-time technician and I can see a big change in the repair torch behavior; his hability is so much balanced now than before, because before you could tank a berserker with a healing charge and clean up the whole world if the another pilot is experienced. Same with the default effect. Now the healing torch range has been increased and has much less armor-recovery rate, even if your teammate is being hit. So I think the thechnician is more balanced now than before.

Btw, if you find a experienced technician on the enemy team and you have any tech, you will lose yes or yes.

[Exeon]

X3P0, on January 27 2014 - 03:13 AM, said:

I should have rephrased the can't shoot what you can see to, It is very unlikely you will ever kill a technician your team cannot get sight of. The reason I've finally joined the 'the techs broken' bandwagon is because in these IO scrims you can't exactly get angles on the tech because of the range at which engagements happen. They cut down on available angles or drastically cut your accuracy with arcing weapons.

Flanking is a possibility that is rarely used by players because of the time it takes to get into a position to flank and the time to kill for even A mechs is a bit under 4 seconds, a bit under 3 with detonator. The the range at which almost every mech needs to be to do so is exceptionally dangerous. Include his teammates items like EMP/shield/repair charge/detonator/hell even that awesome blockade thing make for quite the challenge to accomplish considering the likely 5 teammates he has probably 1-2 seconds away from him will turn the kill into a 1 for 1 trade if you can even get it in time.

As for the take the lead and run away(quite literally) with it strategy, you need the lead. From the IO scrims we've seen that if you rotate out mechs from even a small loss of health you can very easily keep all your mechs topped off making it quite hard for you to grab that lead when your mechs are taking equivalent damage but jumping out of combat for twice as long. You are sending their mechs back more frequently but with such a large gain in mech uptime from the tech it is a negligible advantage.

I'm not really sure why you are so vehemently fighting to keep this change, it is doing nothing for the game besides lowering the skill requirement of not only the tech but his teammates as well. The ever changing meta is nice and all but when a mechs goal randomly changes after 8 months of being a combat healer to now be out of combat as much as possible, this just doesn't seem like an intended change.

I'd love an example of any game where a character or anything is considered very good by never actually being in combat or in danger in a pvp situation/environment assuming it has combat capabilities. I'm sure you'll argue that because no example exist is not a reasoning for it to be changed, it isn't, I'm merely looking to see if you know of any other games doing it.

The only reasoning I've come up with for this change is that it was in preparation for the next patch and I'll gladly eat my words but, this is now and none of us are sporting a time travel device so we don't exactly know whats coming.

[DerMax]

X3P0, on January 27 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

What do you mean in part, they left LARGELY due to the tech.

Linguistically, the meanings of these two adverbs overlap, so there is no contradiction here.

X3P0, on January 27 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

Unless you simply spout incorrect statements on a regular basis.

I don't. Looks like an ad hominem in disguise to me.

X3P0, on January 27 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

If you are trying to impress people attesting to the legitimacy of you statements and how the community should
blindly believe in everything you type [...]

I'm not.

X3P0, on January 27 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

but you seem to have a big problem with anyone who questions the validity of your statements.

I don't. Conversely, I'm always open to criticism and debate. This is an unsubstantiated generalization.

X3P0, on January 27 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

To suggest the Technician is the predominant reason players discontinue play is ludicrous.

I never suggested that. By 'largely' I meant 'to a large extent' and not 'mostly'. See http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/largely (the second definition).

X3P0, on January 27 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

You could try explaining yourself to the community as to why you feel each statement is legitimate as opposed to attempting
to dismiss it, otherwise you are really adding little of anything to the discussion beyond unsubstantiated claims you refuse to account for. There is no argument to be had, it stopped when you posted, the community discredited the ideas and than you refused to refute the legitimate claims against your statements.

Here you call yourself 'the community'. Another generalization.


P.S. This is my last post addressed to you in this thread.

Edited by DerMax, January 27 2014 - 07:30 AM.

[Muffintrumpet]

X3P0; showering himself in glory with every other post
I'm also picking up the distinct whiff of a deliberate smurf/troll account

[Dracorean]

X3P0, on January 26 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

Dracorean, on January 26 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

It's not that hard to focus fire and kill the thing, even if you bring it to low health or shoot at it at times it will run from the heat of combat to repair or find someone else to latch onto. This thing kinda reminds me of the medic in TF2, but less capable of taking on targets on its own. Its primarily support, and to make it more combat oriented, you might as well use another mech altogether.

Its probably more notable in TDM due to the repair orbs that fly around that can also heal up your mech. Which can improve a mech's self repair capability if there is a tech in a fight. Which would put emphasis on the tech being a primary target in such fights.

I can agree in part. Any mech can be destroyed as we have discussed within a pretty short time frame or window of opportunity. But I think it is important to note that sometimes in play we see scenarios where which although this idea rings true the variables change. For instance directing team fire towards a particular mech ensuring they cannot retreat, thereby taking a well hidden technician out of the equation entirely when they could be in some safe area off to the side or orchestrating a flank with thoughtful choices. Its risky business the further hidden away a technician may be and the risk is that much greater when grouped or near players with the prevalence of splash damage.

Well when I fight these little things or when one or two are in play on the enemy team, I try using a mech with High burst damage, zerker, bruiser, rocketeer, are mechs I prefer to use, which I seem to mostly play mechs with such damage capability. The zerker can be quite sustainable but its ability brings up the damage by quite a margin. Point is that, if you want to kill one easily then burst it, which always seem to work for me. But this should be pretty obvious to anyone fighting the thing.

Though when you have a tech that is just avoiding combat and healing allies then that drags down the combat, yes but there is a timer to these scenarios or an objective. With all game modes, the longer you stay out of combat the less you contribute. Every time you repair your mech with 'C' you risk having one or two of those team mates die out because they could have used that one extra mech. Having a tech simply repair on the side lines would help bring mechs back into combat faster but it sort of puts you down one mech for combat. Which to my surprise, kinda hurts the team. Having 6 players per team is like League of legends 5 player teams, where every player counts and if one does poorly it risks bringing a loss to the team. But there are also people who seem to carry games with scores equal to that of the combined scores of two players. That being said, if you are dealing with a team of 4 tech's they will only have two mechs capable of producing reliable damage to your team. However the techs can make it so that these two mechs will be able to tank damage from 2 mechs firing at them (this is where the targets change) the best thing to do in such situations is to quickly kill off the two other mechs. Combined dps of several techs is potent however not as effective as combined dps of an equal amount of say, Recruits.

The concept of the tech isn't a very new one to me, as I've encountered similar class play styles in other games such as TF2 or Planetside. Any other game with a healer focus class reduces the groups combat capability in exchange for survivability. And often in first person shooter games. Players seem to have a problem with survivability within the mechanics such as in CoD4 and juggernaut or something that just adds something to the player to take more hits than normal. I mean that's primarily why people don't use all techs or medics unless the situation calls for added survivability which despite the tech being a mobile healing platform, it remains flimsy, weak to burst and or concentrated fire. There are people though that can make it work well as a combat medic type of thing with the different primary weapon, but its dps still remains rather low. I may not be a long time player myself but the concepts of the mech seems easy to understand and using simple common sense to deal with.

[Sylhiri]

Exeon, on January 27 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

The ever changing meta is nice and all but when a mechs goal randomly changes after 8 months of being a combat healer to now be out of combat as much as possible, this just doesn't seem like an intended change.

I'll have to disagree with this. The tech as it is now is ACTUALLY playing as a team, the whole team not just the tech and his lover. I'm seeing the tech worry more about the entire team then just an individual and that looks exactly what it was intended to do. Is it boring as all hell, yes but so was the combat buddy playstyle and they both have something in common that makes it like that. I'll give you two hints, "sticky" and "continuous".

Side Note - I do need to laugh at the whole flanking thing though, radar range is so massive even cloaked enemies are seen way before they attempt sneaking around. Being a technician in this time before the patch could not be more safer.

Edited by Sylhiri, January 27 2014 - 12:03 PM.

[Exeon]

After sleeping on this I think the problem may come from the 6v6 setup that the competitive scene has tried to avoid but, until last night we weren't really sure how to do it. So I'm gonna hold off on suggesting it need be changed until I get the IO people back together for some 5v5 and see how it works out.

[HugeGuts]

Sylhiri, on January 27 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

I'm seeing the tech worry more about the entire team then just an individual and that looks exactly what it was intended to do.

I notice this too. With the current healing rate, I think it's best for Technicians to go from teammate to teammate instead of sticking with one person. The healing rate is where it needs to be. Now there just needs to be a way for healing to not be so easy and boring.

[Muffintrumpet]

HugeGuts, on January 27 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

Now there just needs to be a way for healing to not be so easy and boring.

agreed but how_
perhaps the best two ways of sorting the current healing mechanism out are to make it a skill shot and to go from sustained healing to short, timed bursts

it amazes me that the Tech is _still_ lurching from one failed build to the next at such a late stage in the game’s development
even on paper the Tech sounded wrong, and lo, many iterations later, it still is wrong
the concept of a Tech is ok -- even if healing should be a secondary function of the mech, not the primary -- but Hawken’s take on the concept is quite banal

I'd have preferred it had the devs copied the medic class from Killing Floor rather than TF2

Edited by Muffintrumpet, January 28 2014 - 04:47 AM.

[Kurzak06]

Sorry, I just don't get how you feel Tech is boring. There seem to be a lot of assumptions on how everyone should or does play Tech. I personally find it quite challenging to fire at the enemy to help focus them down while still maintaining my range and angle on the teammate I'm healing. Tech doesn't out-heal sustained damage from any mech that I know of. Too many times I've blown 'F' on a teammate to just watch them die because they failed to dodge a couple well placed shots from the enemy. On the other side of the fence, I can't count the number of times I've killed a heavy being healed while piloting my zerker. My point is this, Tech isn't OP. This thread is pointless. Why_ Here are some factors for you to consider:

1) Is: Tech healing > Avg Mech Dmg    ==  FALSE
2) Is: Tech boring to play_  ==  Based on individual opinion
3) Is: Tech contributing to team == yes.

This is my opinion. Tech is neither OP or boring. Sounds like you already have your mind made up, good for you. Just know that there are those of us who completely disagree with you. Do I have the occasional problem while fighting enemy techs_ Sure, but its always manageable because I know how to aim and use my brain.

[Exeon]

Kurzak06, on January 28 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Sorry, I just don't get how you feel Tech is boring. There seem to be a lot of assumptions on how everyone should or does play Tech. I personally find it quite challenging to fire at the enemy to help focus them down while still maintaining my range and angle on the teammate I'm healing. Tech doesn't out-heal sustained damage from any mech that I know of. Too many times I've blown 'F' on a teammate to just watch them die because they failed to dodge a couple well placed shots from the enemy. On the other side of the fence, I can't count the number of times I've killed a heavy being healed while piloting my zerker. My point is this, Tech isn't OP. This thread is pointless. Why_ Here are some factors for you to consider:

1) Is: Tech healing > Avg Mech Dmg ==  FALSE
2) Is: Tech boring to play_  ==  Based on individual opinion
3) Is: Tech contributing to team == yes.

This is my opinion. Tech is neither OP or boring. Sounds like you already have your mind made up, good for you. Just know that there are those of us who completely disagree with you. Do I have the occasional problem while fighting enemy techs_ Sure, but its always manageable because I know how to aim and use my brain.

Your entire post is completely off topic of what this thread is trying to discuss. You are in every paragraph/section of your post referring to a tech in a combat based role, if this was the case I wouldn't have posted a single thing. In fact I would support it had anyone complained about it for its in combat capabilities. And I do agree with you, keeping up with a good player who knows how to move is difficult in its own right. Keeping high uptime on your primary while keeping up with previously mentioned good player is something I doubt most players are even capable of.

HOWEVER, the topic of discussion here is the out of combat orange beam heal rate being quite bonkers. No one would disagree with me in saying it is incredibly boring to play, fans of watching sap ooze down a tree might find this exhilarating. I do feel it is too strong but, I will reassess my opinion after our 5v5 games later this week.

[LoC_TR]

I guess i'm on this hate bandwagon too. Normally i really don't try to let hawken or any game effect my real life attitude but when you clearly out play another player or three and the tech jumps in creating chaos i can't help but feel frustration. I work so hard to wrangle the enemies into a bad spot and bombard them and then it's all taken away. Out of fuel low on health, with no clean up in sight. The enemy comes right back at you.

The tech rewards players for bad choices they may have made. They'll be in a totally helpless spot with no fuel and i still see the tech bring them out of the ashes. URRGGH bursts my bubble mang.

In the Scrims it's like the first 4 minutes of the match is prodding waiting for one player to make a mistake so you can kill him and win the game 1-0. Just keep rotating out players forever. bleh i really hate even talking about the tech now.

I'm not saying the tech can't be punished, but all he really has to do is stick to that one player who knows what the hell he's doing and you win. Not only that if you stick to this one player and your two scores combined  inflate, mmr inflates, the game lies about your skill.

I don't want to play with the tech anymore, I hate it.

[Kurzak06]

Exeon, on January 28 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Kurzak06, on January 28 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

snip*

Your entire post is completely off topic of what this thread is trying to discuss. You are in every paragraph/section of your post referring to a tech in a combat based role, if this was the case I wouldn't have posted a single thing. In fact I would support it had anyone complained about it for its in combat capabilities. And I do agree with you, keeping up with a good player who knows how to move is difficult in its own right. Keeping high uptime on your primary while keeping up with previously mentioned good player is something I doubt most players are even capable of.

HOWEVER, the topic of discussion here is the out of combat orange beam heal rate being quite bonkers. No one would disagree with me in saying it is incredibly boring to play, fans of watching sap ooze down a tree might find this exhilarating. I do feel it is too strong but, I will reassess my opinion after our 5v5 games later this week.

My apologies, I see your point now. Maybe they could dial down the out of combat healing.

[kazuya989]

FenixStryk, on January 25 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

Alternate Title: "The Technician and the Controversy". Teach the controversy, brother!

More seriously, I would have been happier if the Mech if it was reasonably competent in combat and only mediocre at healing. A strict support class ends up being dull to play and frustrating to deal with, no matter how easy, hard or effective it is. More pointed adjustments would be increasing the out-of-combat timer and bringing orange beam down again, but that may be an incomplete solution...

This and Exeon's post above has nailed the problem with the Tech for me.

Before the patch there were 2 viable playstyles for the tech.  Healer Tech and Battle Tech.  

Healer Tech has been described on many forum threads before and this one as well.  Sit at the back, finger on right button, rinse and repeat.  That can be quite boring for the Tech, doesn't increase significantly the players skill and can frustrate the other team who don't have one.

Battle Tech on the other hand can be allot of fun, it may not be the optimal build, but allows the player to be primarily combat focussed with a bit of healing thrown in.  Takes skill to play well and tactical thinking to decide when to fight, when to heal, and when to do both.
Technicians were very effective ambush mechs that could be played in a similar way to an infiltrator (without the alpha burst) that relies on getting the drop on an opponent.

The problem now as Exeon states, is that Techs are now almost exclusively Healer Techs, especially in level 30 / high tier / clan matches.  At 300 health ambushing of any kind is tough, as you wont have much health advantage to offset the weak DPS, and most Tech players will most likely just switch to healing.

The Tech is my favourite mech, but needs a slight rework.

Increase the DPS of the Red Beam / Redox and Ripper,  but reduce the healing rate of orange beam on your team, and NO healing for Tech from Orange beam.

Green Beam ability should be special (as its rare) so healing ability as is, but increase self healing on Tech to encourage its use in combat.

The Tech can still be a Support mech as intended, whilst moving towards a more skill based combat build.  It's should be able to do both.