167 replies to this topic

[X3P0]

To hobo, and opening these questions to everyone if they feel they have something to add:

Do you feel, from what you do know about the upcoming patch their will be less strategy involved in play overall - or a gain in deeper gameplay or strategy_

For instance, I think resource management can add a lot of entertainment in genres such as real time strategy. In Hawken I do not derive a lot of entertainment from managing the fuel bar in its current implementation to find the change distasteful. Should we accept this mechanic because we can attribute some sort of strategic decision making to it - or should we be more concerned with strategy in other places and make what choices in the game we can to increase entertainment and appeal - if we were the developers that is. Resource management could very well be implemented in a fun and interesting way that attracted more players, I just do not think this instance of resource management is a deal maker for me. I find it of little value in comparison and no where near as creative or entertaining as resource management in other games. Thus instead of something I would deem poorly implemented, I do not mind the devs changing this aspect of the game.

An element of a game having some relation to some sort of basic strategic value, is this enough to warrant its inclusion in the game_  Is any loss of strategy what so ever in any aspect of the game something which would be treated the same, if not what other factors are being considered here_

I think we are now presented with some very interesting changes to strategy regarding movement and positioning in the upcoming patch. I feel as if decisions are more thoughtful and meaningful, I think they have more impact. I believe many decisions matter more than ever. I am excited for the upcoming gameplay changes

Edited by X3P0, January 30 2014 - 09:26 PM.

[Exeon]

So my original request was for a literal option: I do not know what I want

[Xacius]

X3P0, on January 30 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

I think we are now presented with some very interesting changes to strategy regarding movement and positioning in the upcoming patch. I feel as if decisions are more thoughtful and meaningful, I think they have more impact. I believe many decisions matter more than ever. I am excited for the upcoming gameplay changes

Completely agreed.  Players will have to be smarter if they wish to excel.

[ShadowWarg]

Exeon, on January 30 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

So my original request was for a literal option: I do not know what I want

This is what you want:

[Sylhiri]

Xacius, on January 30 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

Completely agreed.  Players will have to be smarter if they wish to excel.

That's dangerous thinking Xacius. Say there was something wrong with the patch, first thing that will pop up is the "Your just not used to it yet" card. Do we really need a "Your just not smart enough" card blocking any potential fixes_ I fear that a legitimate problem might get brushed aside in the case where something is wrong with the new changes.

Edited by Sylhiri, January 30 2014 - 10:59 PM.

[Xacius]

Sylhiri, on January 30 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

Xacius, on January 30 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

Completely agreed.  Players will have to be smarter if they wish to excel.

That's dangerous thinking Xacius. Say there was something wrong with the patch, first thing that will pop up is the "Your just not used to it yet" card. Do we really need a "Your just not smart enough" card blocking any potential fixes_ I fear that a legitimate problem might get brushed aside in the case where something is wrong with the new changes.

Wait and see for yourself.

[flimsy]

X3P0, on January 30 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

curiosity

I don't think it's a stretch to argue that competitive FPS games have suffered in popularity in the last decade. A lot of the FPS market has moved into the AAA, cinema-influenced console shooters, and I'm not so sure that it's because the new kids can't appreciate the subtlety and purity of the older titles like UT3, Q3 and CS. What people often forget is that these games are 3rd or 4th generation refinements of gameplay that evolved in response to unexpected optimal behaviors that took advantage of what were essentially flaws in the first generation of 3D FPS games.

Bunny hopping is probably the best example of this. A behavior that works because first-gen shooters let players jump very high, retain their momentum, and suffer no drawbacks. Later gen shooters tried to iterate on the model while only innovating in safe ways—generally by improving the appearance of the game—and the powerful jump remained. So because it was strong, the optimal thing to do was to be jumping as much as physically possible, and players were expected to master this complete absurd optimization simply to remain competitive. You practice it, you get it to the level of muscle memory and you don't have to expend any attention managing it, and it becomes this thing that everybody does by reflex because it becomes a sort of skill floor, and nobody asked whether it made sense maybe to tweak the risk/reward ration of jumping so that everyone wasn't jumping all the time.

The great thing about Hawken is that while you are rewarded for having excellent reactive skills on the level of muscle memory and reflex, the choice of when not to engage plays a much more important role than it does generally in the FPS genre. You cannot simply rely on your reflexes to win a battle in Hawken, because if you fail to think about your fuel, you will be unable to make the kind of reflex moves necessary to survive. So you still need to be able to react quickly and aim accurately, (the one aspect of the changes I unconditionally like is the emphasis on accurate aiming, which I don't think there's any downside to), but it's equally important to know when to disengage or when not engage to at all, or when your opponent is about to be vulnerable because he has not adequately considered these factors. It's great if you can score a kill by making a difficult shot or executing a complex movement, but better if you can arrange the kill such the shots aren't difficult, and you can avoid a dodge you don't need to make. It's this sort of gameplay that's going to suffer if TTK is lowered, fuel is removed from dodge, and the aim penalty is removed from air movement, and it's this sort of gameplay that distinguishes Hawken.

[edit] This is not to say that high level thought is not a fact run other FPS games, but the fact that movement is generally unlimited means that you can rely on the speed and precision of your reflexes more than you can in Hawken.

Edited by flimsy, January 31 2014 - 12:18 AM.

[Ysenberg]

Hi guys!

Having read the entire thread again, i think i will add my (relatively simple) 2 cents.

First of all: I'm a little above the average player age (i'm 50), hence mostly considered an aged flatulence (damn wordfilter) ^^
I'm not as fast, not as good at aiming as others. That's why i chose the Grenadier as my main in the first place.
I rack up a fair amount of assists and sometimes kills, and i'm very comfy with the actual TTK. If i had a way to see my MMR, i would undoubtedly find me somewhere in the 1600's range

I'm in the process of leveling my Predator atm, and to my surprise, i can wreak some havok with that unusual mech too. This is because the game gives me a little time to evaluate some basic tactics.
Without that i would be lost like in UT and CS.

I would appreciate a little finetuning towards glass-cannon for A-class and tankiness for the c-class, but that's only my opinion and doesn't have too much to do with the topic at hand.

best regards from the land of colds and influenza

Ysen

Edited by Ysenberg, January 31 2014 - 12:53 AM.

[ShadowWarg]

h0B0, on January 30 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

ShadowWarg, on January 30 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

Riddle me this. If you increase the mobility of the game so that mechs move faster and more fluidly, but then you increase the health of the mechs, are you effectively increasing the over all pace of the game, decreasing it, or does it remains the same_

Good question. Unlike TTK game pace is a very complex thing. It takes so many variables into consideration from time to respawn to time to reach a fight to amount of time spent fighting vs repairing. Honestly if we increase health and mobility one could easily argue that the pace is faster since the action is more feverish and happens with less interruptions. Decreasing the TTK and increasing the mobility would have the adverse effect. Whilst it will lead to less downtime when attempting to reach an engagement said engagement is shorter, and the respawn timer is effectively taking up a larger percentage of game time.

Hope you appreciated my attempt at sharing my understanding of pace. I look forward to reading all yalls

Interesting way of thinking about it, but I guess that makes sense. If your spending more time dieing and relauching the pace of the game would feel a bit slower even though the down time hasn't changed.

No one else has any thoughts_

[Muffintrumpet]

with the current TTK certain map camping spots aren't always unassailable; a lower TTK sometimes enabled the team in the weaker position to muscle their way past the choke point and sometimes even prevail thereafter
with a lower TTK I’d say such locations could become complete roadblocks
if this game is adopting a faster, lower TTK style of play then that will highlight the less well designed maps quite starkly

[WarPig]

@Hobo - Another 6 months I don't think is in the cards for them anymore .. I would be willing to bet any changes / fixes for the game to adjust the patch after it drops will happen rather swiftly in terms of their previous last 2 so thats a breath of fresh air and at least a positive.

[h0B0]

X3P0, on January 30 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

To hobo, and opening these questions to everyone if they feel they have something to add:

Do you feel, from what you do know about the upcoming patch their will be less strategy involved in play overall - or a gain in deeper gameplay or strategy_ The strategy aspect of the game will remain. It will undoubtedly change however. But these changes will not create more strategical depth to the game. My point is to the contrary that you are in effect lowering the strategical depth of the game by removing these mechanics.

For instance, I think resource management can add a lot of entertainment in genres such as real time strategy. In Hawken I do not derive a lot of entertainment from managing the fuel bar in its current implementation to find the change distasteful. Should we accept this mechanic because we can attribute some sort of strategic decision making to it - or should we be more concerned with strategy in other places and make what choices in the game we can to increase entertainment and appeal - if we were the developers that is. This is a very decent question to ask. And honestly only the game developers can answer this question. A lot of things go into making this decision, i certainly don't have the design background to make a triple A title. What i do have is knowledge of the game, enthusiasm, and a will to provide constructive feedback. Resource management could very well be implemented in a fun and interesting way that attracted more players, I just do not think this instance of resource management is a deal maker for me. I find it of little value in comparison and no where near as creative or entertaining as resource management in other games. Thus instead of something I would deem poorly implemented, I do not mind the devs changing this aspect of the game.

An element of a game having some relation to some sort of basic strategic value, is this enough to warrant its inclusion in the game_No  Is any loss of strategy what so ever in any aspect of the game something which would be treated the same, if not what other factors are being considered here_ Confused

I think we are now presented with some very interesting changes to strategy regarding movement and positioning in the upcoming patch. This is an undeniable fact. I feel as if decisions are more thoughtful and meaningful, Actually this isn't the case. The logic used behind a dodge decision in the current system forces you to take into account more variables. The player can choose to make a meaningful choice by choosing not to dodge. I think they have more impact. I believe many decisions matter more than ever. I am excited for the upcoming gameplay changes

The competitive shooters i have experience with all have an deep and complex resource management system. Counter-strike has an in game economy and this effects gameplay considerably in tournaments. It forces the player to think about eco rounds, sharing the AWP, not wasting ammo or grenades etc... Quake has pick ups. These pick ups have a very important role in the game, it forces players to fight for resources and creates meaningful engagements.

What does hawken have_ What will the e-sports commentators be saying during the match_ I would you rather they praise the resource managements of champions and discuss how managing resource properly can lead to amazing plays and jaw dropping hype moments.

This is a random clip of highlits from the finals of a quake tournament. Listening to the commentators its easy to see how much depth the resource system adds to the game. Time and time again we hear the commentators talk about Mega, and Red and how important they are to the survival or victory of a player.

This is a random clip from a favorite commentator of mine. We can clearly see that CS has a resource that permeates the game. Eco rounds and weapon grabs are a core mechanic of the game and is a topic of discussion that is very prevalent in competitive casting.

I can understand and respect that you disagree with me. And don;t want to force you to share my opinion. However if Hawken really has competitive aspirations i believe the changes that are currently taking place are negatively impacting the depth of the game.

Edit: One could go as far as noting that Halo and CoD are a joke for most serious e-sports viewers and competitors. As far as i know those games don't have a deep resource mechanic.

Edited by h0B0, January 31 2014 - 07:15 AM.

[WarPig]

as a caster watching Hawken and such I would be more apt to talk about the strat or plan the team is showing and how they are executing , along with their player kills they are grabbing whos baiting and whos over extending etc.. same as TF2 really also has no Resource management yet still thrives in shout casting and the esports side of it is still very successful, maybe not as LARGE as some other game but that does not discredit the success of it.

While I agree having some sort of resource management can be more engaging to some and a benefit I don't know if it something that is absolutely needed other than some "liked" it being there. I have to see how this is all gonna play out and hopefully it works out.

[DerMax]

What bothers me personally regarding the new TTK is that it makes the game faster-paced, which means it will seriously lower the performance of low-fps and high-ping players. I have heard this "we can't build the game around the high ping" argument many times, but hey—we are people too. In my opinion, adding more regions before the game is released is absolutely crucial for better player retention.

[LarryLaffer]

Quote

What bothers me personally regarding the new TTK is that it makes the game faster-paced, which means it will seriously lower the performance of low-fps and high-ping players.

QFT. It will look like this

and ill be mostly unplayable for players with ping more than 120. I would like to return to TTK from pre-ascension build or a little bit faster. I think it's optimal for current situation.

Edited by LarryLaffer, January 31 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[Leonhardt]

Sylhiri, on January 30 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

comic_sans, on January 30 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

To me, lower (but still reasonably above COD nonsense) TTK means easier to break up deathballs.  I'm for it.

Maybe. I have a feeling that people will want to go into deathballs more as there is safety in numbers and easier to kill mechs quicker as a group, even more so with lower health.

With current splash and the lower ttk I doubt deathballs will be nearly as effective.

[HugeGuts]

h0B0, on January 31 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

snip

This is why I'm excited for the Fire Fighter. With heat generation directly affecting its ability and weapon, it is the first mech to require high resource management. This also gives it a dynamic style of momentum based game play. My hope is this dynamic game play reaches every other class in some way as Hawken is best suited for it due to having unlimited, fast recharging resources.

[chickenSTALKER]

Just release the damn patch already! I can't wait to try it out. I don't care about the changes because I'll just get use to it.

[ArachII]

I feel like this whole debate revolves around two positions. One side desired a game similar to fast First Person Shooters while the other side want a MechWarrior feeling with a bit more mobility and cover being used. I think the changes announced will make Hawken please the first described audience. Saddly, what I liked of Hawken was this crossover of a rusty MechWarrior feeling and dodging mechanics like in the Metroid:Prime episodes. Modern FPS are not appealing to me and I fear the upcoming changes will make Hawken a bit like them. I prefer to watch opponents slowly going down rather than quick and expeditive fights. This is my personal preference and in no way I can say what I enjoy is better than what someone else prefer.

Again, I recognize that actually the game is too forgiving for bad placement and it is too easy to retreat to safety. I know it is currently possible to almost instagib someone. While these are what I consider issues, I do not know if a lower TTK is the best way to solve these problems. But, it may have the effect to make this game less appealing to me.

To finish, I am not saying the next changes will make Hawken awful. It is just that they may not go along with my vision of Hawken. In the end, maybe losing me as a customer will bring them more players, who knows!

Sidenote: I miss Beemann and AJK...

[HugeGuts]

I just realized something - With a significantly lower TTK, what is going to happen to the Technician_