70 replies to this topic

[_swim_]

I've been  playing tech almost exclusively recently and it feels like it needs just a bit of adjustment. Gameplaywise it is quite balanced since your squishiness means you can only be as good as the rest of your team. You will be the most useful member of the team if everyone else stays together, protects you, and lets you heal them (seriously it seems like someone people don't want to be healed). The only thing that needs adjusting is the scoring. It's far too easy to be at the top of the list as a tech if your team is any good, similar to how it is in TF2. A good tech is very valuable and makes any team better but they shouldn't always be MVP.

Edited by _swim_, April 02 2014 - 08:26 PM.

[delax]

The main game like this that I've played is TF2, so seeing a medic class is awesome in my mind.
Support is my fuzzy bunny, and Tech is my go to guy so far.
I actually enjoy keeping people alive and in the game.

Unfortunately, I am not particularly hardcore and am new to Hawken, and can't really make very good judgements on overall balance....
Lol, but I can compare to TF2 (which obviously is aimed to the same people as Hawken).

The Tech is hella weak compared to the Medic.
Like, cheerleader-in-horror-movie weak; if you're alone, then you run and/or die.
The primary is useful to combo, and the heal/siphon modes are satisfying; however, both require you to either hug teammates or enemies all the time.
The amplify ability is nice enough for healing (reminds me of Megaheal ubercharge), but I have not noticed any useful difference in siphon mode.

The tech feels pretty zippy, so I wander constantly (doesn't help that my damn meatshields teammates keep scattering!).
Then I run away when I find some enemies around the corner, and then I die as there is no reason for them not to chase me.
Items help, but are limited uses per life (unless I am mistaken) and after they're used-up you're back where you started.

Not sure how correct this is, but I keep thinking that something like the Syringe-gun (specifics on tf2-wiki here) from TF2 would really help; spray many weak bullets to make them back-off, then I abscond.

It kinda bemuses me that it seems more than a few people actively dislike Techs; I think adding one changes the gameplay, but that's kinda what having different classes is supposed to do.

[Vaufo]

Arkanor, on March 09 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

People only complain about the tech because they're too selfish to play one on their team if they need it.

It's like the medic from TF2 and helps the game feel less like CS or COD with some healing ability. Having the support makes it feel like a more rounded game.

Yeah... like the medic from TF2... except he gets to dual wield a Medi Gun and a Syringe Gun...oh and the Medigun can be swaped to a damage dealing Medi Gun...  Also there are no spies to instagib them.... Also the Medi Gun heals himself WAY faster.

The only way I can think of to balance the technician without just removing it from the game where it has no place to begin with: Remove the lock on component from the gun (at least from the damage dealing side but really both shouldn't be able to lock on) and remove the self healing component. Make him repair the normal way like everyone else.

[Clinchicus]

Aregon, on March 06 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

A decent Tech is a PocketTech, but a great and efficient Tech is a team-healer.

I like this statement - I've been in matches where I could just stick with an Incinerator and they would destroy everything, but it does seem more satisfying helping a team of 3 or 4 keep control of the AA.

I also like that the Tech helps take some of the focus off the KDR stat - I think showing a Heal per Death Ratio would be a fun stat!

Do you think the frustration with the Tech comes from lack of coordination, both from the pilots and those trying to eliminate the Tech_

[SoldierHobbes11]

If you don't like the Tech, go play Deathmatch. That's the one mode where he's highly ineffective in. And if no one on your team has the stones to kamikaze an enemy technician, that sucks for you. Sure they make fights more difficult but that just makes it fun (for me anyways). Aren't games about challenge anyways_ Best way to kill a tech is to not care about dying, and then either sneaking up on it or kamikaze diving it.

Edited by SoldierHobbes11, April 13 2014 - 12:28 PM.

[outfctrl]

hendman, on February 15 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

I only voted in the bottom option (Hate it with a passion!!!!!!!!!!), because in its current form it is impossible to balance the tech.

For the tech user to get a feeling of accomplishment the tech needs to heal.......heal a lot and heal fast. When the tech user doesn't get this feeling of accomplishment (ie his "customers" are blown up from underneath his sticky beam), he will stop using the tech, and that is not something ADH wants to see happening.

So we either don't get to see any techs on the battlefield because they are nerfed to oblivion, or we will see the techs having a profound impact on the gameflow, and techs topping the scoreboards...........as we are seeing these days.

I stopped playing with the ascension release and started again with the steam update, since so many players seemed to like the changes. But I already find myself leaving matches again when a tech turns up, just like I did pre-ascension, because I don't mind a tech sucking the life out of my mech, but I do mind them sucking the fun out of my game.

You have got to be kidding.  Us techs make or break a win.  You just have to be fast and learn how to move and repair.  The tech is basicallly all I play and I love it

[Kdansky]

I generally don't care enough about any game to post in suggestion forums, because they are rarely (if ever) read at all.

But I will make an exception for the tech.

Hawken as a game is half as good because it exists. Any game where a tech is present completely breaks, whichever team has a tech will be able to hold the AA forever. I'd call it OP, but then it's not so much OP as completely game-breaking.

Hawken is very much about these things:
- You can heal if you are left alone for a long time. You cannot heal in combat.
- Mechs have lots of health and/or can dodge very well, and do low burst damage. Fights are about attrition, not burst.
- Shooting exposes you to enemy fire. You are visible on the radar, you have a giant hit-box, and you move slowly.

The tech breaks all basic rules.
- The tech heals his allies during combat, with no penalty.
- The tech actually heals himself during combat, making him extremely hard to kill despite the low HP. He is immune to attrition, and nobody has enough burst to one-shot him.
- The tech automatically hits any target he wants. Unlike Hellfires, the red beam never misses.
- The tech can safely heal his allies from behind cover. It's nearly impossible to kill him before his partner.

To compare with the TF2-medic, at least the medic has counters. You can one-shot-kill the medic. The medic has no chance against a scout 1v1. It's not so hard to flank him, because the maps have multiple paths from anywhere to anywhere. Most classes have very high burst damage, and can nuke through any heals.

As a bonus, take a look at techs at the end of match screen. If they are not in the top 3, they joined just before the match ended. It's not even funny when people defend the tech, because they only do that because they win games with it. It's the noob-tube of Hawken: Low skill to use (you don't even have to aim your gun), very high pay-off.

It's not so much that an OP class bothers me. Hell, since most people don't realize it, I'd just play it and crush everyone. But what bothers me is that the games with a tech in them are just so much worse. A death-ball camping at a bottle-neck, constantly getting healed by a tech. I'd rather lose a game than win a game where techs are present. The tech needs to have his right arm cut off. Replace healing with a shield / attack boost / heat reduction effect. Completely drop the offensive use (seriously, guns that never miss in a shooter_ Who thought this was a good idea_!)

Edited by Kdansky, April 12 2014 - 12:27 PM.

[mccrorie]

It's not the tech's fault the devs haven't added any more team-orientated mechs. Poor design.

Poor tech.

[Vaufo]

outfctrl, on April 11 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

You have got to be kidding.  Us techs make or break a win.  You just have to be fast and learn how to move and repair.  The tech is basicallly all I play and I love it

A single mech can change the outcome of a game_ Seems balanced! Seriously, what is your logic here_ My mech is OP and I play it exclusively because of this! It's fine!

[SciFox]

Kdansky, on April 12 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

The tech breaks all basic rules.
- The tech heals his allies during combat, with no penalty.
- The tech actually heals himself during combat, making him extremely hard to kill despite the low HP. He is immune to attrition, and nobody has enough burst to one-shot him.
- The tech automatically hits any target he wants. Unlike Hellfires, the red beam never misses.
- The tech can safely heal his allies from behind cover. It's nearly impossible to kill him before his partner.

Healing has a penalty just like any secondary. You build up heat with it and if youre firing as well youre going to OH real quick.
You do heal yourself but the rate isn't blowing anybody away. A pred can 1shot him with a setup. Everybody else can land a TOW/grenade/whatever and have him on the verge of death.
Yeah but hellfires do damage. The vamp only does significant dmg to A mechs.

Id be ok with taking the points away for healing. Or halving them. Points are fairly meaningless.

I can see how the tech might tip the scale in some siege games but thats only if you already have the AA and have hunkered down. MA, TDM, etc he's certainly not as important.

Whenever I think maybe the tech is a bit OP I consider 2 scenerios:
1) by his lonesome hes not spooking anybody
2) With another mech, say 2v2, youre gaining healing but youre losing the 2nd offense. Unless the tech has his power available almost any pair can burst through his healing or take the tech out.

If the game bogs down into mass peekaboo ,and numbers are roughly equivalent, then yeah i give a bit of an advantage to the tech team. But then again, nothing's stopping team 2 from grabbin a tech.

Edited by SciFox, April 14 2014 - 11:19 PM.

[ninjab3ta]

I would like to point out that no one who plays tech on a regular basis has come out and said it is bad, which based on this community, sort of hints at the fact that the mech is OP.

Also, to those who say "just focus the tech," have you noticed that it is actually kinda hard to hit one with non-hitscan_ "Just hit it with one TOW" you say. And how pray-tell am I supposed to do that without getting murdered myself_ Having to literally sacrifice one or more mechs on your team to just have a CHANCE at killing a SINGLE enemy mech is absurd.

Personally, I think a good balance change (other than complete removal) would be to drastically reduce the heal amount, but then reduce the amount of heat it generates. Or have the heal amount halved when the mech you are healing has taken damage in the last few seconds. I am ok with this thing being a nice alternative to having to sit in a corner and pray no one ambushes you while you heal. But when you consider that the current tech can help an ally literally net health through a fight (green beam, seriously is bs)... That is in the realm of breaking this game.

Consider this: when the pro teams of only 6v6 are absolutely, without a doubt REQUIRED to have a tech on their team to win, and there are over a dozen mechs to choose from, we have a problem.

[mccrorie]

nerfing the tech will make it useless.

the problem is there are no other mechs with the same utility

look how good incin/tech is.

that's a synergy to work from, not obliterate.

[ninjab3ta]

mccrorie, on April 15 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

nerfing the tech will make it useless.

I disagree. I firmly believe it is currently too good, as it breaks one of the core mechanics of the game, which is having to disengage to heal. What I proposed would only nerf the in-combat healing of the tech, and by that adjust the role somewhat, but would make if far from useless.

mccrorie, on April 15 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

the problem is there are no other mechs with the same utility

True, if by that you mean the same type of utility. And that type of utility, the in combat healing, is the problem due to the true lack of counter to a good tech other than "shoot more" or "suicide to kill tech"

mccrorie, on April 15 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

look how good incin/tech is.

that's a synergy to work from, not obliterate.

Defending how balanced a mech is by giving an example of near-perfect synergy is not helping your argument. It hinders it.

[mccrorie]

The healing has already been reduced. You have to justify how its going to be useful if you keep chipping away at its one strength.

[ninjab3ta]

mccrorie, on April 15 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

The healing has already been reduced. You have to justify how its going to be useful if you keep chipping away at its one strength.

But that "one strength" (others have already pointed out the lock-on kill-beam) is a major problem. As others and I have pointed out, it literally is breaking one of the key aspects that makes this game unique. And that leaves me frustrated, especially when people defend it as doggedly as they do. We keep going through the same points over and over, and after reading most of these topics, I feel as if the anti-tech position has put much more thought into its side than the pro-tech users.

[mccrorie]

Much more thought_

The consequence of making it poor at healing is that it will never get used. But I suppose that it was what you want, seeing as it 'breaks' a key aspect of the game.

[ninjab3ta]

Main explanations for why tech is fine as is:
-just focus it harder
-flank the enemy
-it has the lowest hp in the game, not hard to kill

Main explanations for why tech is OP:
-breaks a key aspect of gameplay
-Class-A makes it very hard to hit if pilot is competent
-never miss lock on kill beam
-every pro team has one, period

[SciFox]

I don't want to 100% defend the tech but i dont think youre giving much of a fair eval of the pro-tech people.

The main point I'd give the anti's is the tech with the power available. If the power's up and running it's very, very hard to take me or my teammate out. If the power's down, meh. 2v2 any 2 mechs can burn the healing target or kill the tech. I'd consider some kind of tweak to the healing rate of the power.

OP Tech:
If gameplay bogs down to bottleneck peekaboo the tech team has an advantage with a competent tech. i'd agree with that.
You can make that argument for any A mech. People whine about the scout all the time.
Never miss and never do piddle for dmg, either. I dont think anyone's complaining about the tech's killing power. Let's stick to the healing.
But what's stopping opposing team from taking a tech as well_ How does this upset game balance if both teams have 1_

Any nerf/tweak would have to walk a really really fine line. Too much of a nerf to a healing rate and you'd never see a tech again. As is, and I can only speak for pub matches, I just honestly don't see that many techs running around. There aren't that many people that seem to enjoy the gameplay style.

Edited by SciFox, April 15 2014 - 08:45 PM.

[Goyo]

The Tech currently feels like it does way too much damage for a healing game breaking mech.  The secondary alt fire healing beam that does damage locks on and just melts other mechs.  The mech still feels way too good.

[Cloudstorm]

I love the Tech just because it generates such polarised views. When your team is down you love them, when you see one stuck up the bum of a good C class you hate them with a vengeance. A radical suggestion for the empty prestige weapon slot is give it the scout mini flak and then let's have real fun.
We should also remember there are lots of players who are not that good with other mechs and can have a good game helping their teammates with the Tech.
If you want to talk out of character game features then it's the air compressor and the air dodge, no physics behind movement and non of the Mechs have lateral thrusters so again completely out of character.
Good gaming to all.