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Siege mode is BROKEN


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#1 wbg_goof

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Posted February 28 2014 - 10:38 AM

Yes, it's true. Siege mode is broken. But what am I talking about_

  I'm talking about how 19 in 20 games as I play them are completely and totally unbalanced.

Sure, the nature of Siege, I believe, tends to have a lop-sided match. Except the real problem is hardly ever that one team is better than the other. That they're both playing together as teams and doing their jobs, regardless of mech-type but one happens to be slightly better collectively...... NO.

From my experience; it is that there is nothing FORCING new players to LEARN how to PLAY THIS MODE.

There is nothing to force players to STOP CAMPING WITH SNIPERS/ROCKETEERS(taking advantage of people who are ACTUALLY playing SIEGE)
There is nothing to force players to STOP IDLING and GET EU.
There is nothing to force players to STOP SHOOTING THE SHIP WHEN THEY SHOULD BE GOING AA.
There is nothing to force players to GET TO THE AA...........

So what happens_ Good players, or at least ones who know what they're supposed to be doing, skilled or not, are left dying useless deaths. Constantly. DEATH DEATH DEATH

They could leave, but guess what; 19 in 20 games are like this, so what's the point_ How fun is it to be on the winning end of one of these excessively unbalanced matches anyway_ It is not.

They could ask nicely for teammates to do their job, but do you think that advice is taken often_ It is not.

They could start yelling, swearing, and talking down to players. Constructively critical or not, the general response is a further disregard of helpful advice. This is of course a very nice way of putting it....

It is quite obvious to me as a player, that this game-type can not rely on players learning it themselves, or experienced players teaching newer players. People don't care. People don't listen. There needs to be something more.

More sounds. More texts. More ALARMS.

eg. **** blaring alarm / flashing text **** YOU ARE NOT IN THE AA FOOL. GET THERE. OUR SHIP/THEIR SHIP IS LAUNCHED AND YOUR TEAMMATES ARE DYING YOU USELESS PUSTULE. **** endflash ****

Edited by wbg_goof, February 28 2014 - 11:06 AM.


#2 JadenErius

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Posted February 28 2014 - 10:46 AM

Its true I have noticed a few matches that have a lot of new players that are like this. But it isnt so bad now. It was a LOOOOT worse before recent patches.
With the new player base, there are bound to be influxes of players who dont know what siege is about. (it should be included in the tutorial or something)

Another thing that some ppl dont notice is that people rush to the AA but they do so by themselves, so what happens is a bunch of ppl die and think their teammates never followed them (been there before).

But honestly, I have played a lot of siege games and mostly its about 20-30% landslide lost. Not the 95% landslide lost ur suggesting.

Though I do agree, more should be done to teach and encourage players to do siege based tactics. (like reduced exp when battleships have launched and u keep trying to deposit eu)
Blowing stuff up is awesome :P

#3 nokari

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Posted February 28 2014 - 10:49 AM

Not good enough tutorial/guide =/= game mode broken

Also, there are people that don't care and don't listen regardless of what mode they play.

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#4 Lightangel112

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Posted February 28 2014 - 10:53 AM

I get what you mean bro... I get this all the time...

Just last night I joined a game where the enemey had 63 points left, and my team managed to lose the game and we only did a further 8 points of damage to the base I was like WTF.... useless team mates sometimes.

Edited by Lightangel112, March 01 2014 - 02:39 AM.

View PostMeraple, on June 01 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

If you want to be a Professional Yolodriver just go with DETs and the rest EMPs.

#5 EliteShooter

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Posted February 28 2014 - 11:16 AM

fuzzy bunny happens ...



















quite often ...

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#6 Slayzz

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Posted February 28 2014 - 11:21 AM

At first, player who left a battle should become a punishment. A map-blocking for a short time would be too hard, i think a minus of the mech-stats would be an option, -10%dmg/hp or something.

Currently many new players starting to play Hawken you can´t demand that all of them understand the system of Siege at once. Give them time to learn or even better, explain it to them instead of scolding ;)

I play Hawken since a week and when i think at my first Siege-matches ... "Mhh, what i do now_!_!_" ... You now what i mean_

I think Siege is not broken, people often call for a perfect match like 3000/2000:0. Also with beginners you can win a Siege, assuming they are not learning resistant. ( I don´t know if "learning resistant" the right expression in english :P )

#7 rejwen

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Posted February 28 2014 - 12:15 PM

I think that obligatory offline siege training for new players will help
sorry for my english

#8 wbg_goof

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Posted February 28 2014 - 01:47 PM

View Postnokari, on February 28 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

Not good enough tutorial/guide =/= game mode broken

Also, there are people that don't care and don't listen regardless of what mode they play.
This is exactly the issue. Not pilot/mech ranks, not team 'balancing', etc. It is a matter of pure ignorance, and it must be stopped.

View PostSlayzz, on February 28 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

At first, player who left a battle should become a punishment. A map-blocking for a short time would be too hard, i think a minus of the mech-stats would be an option, -10%dmg/hp or something.
NEGATIVE. This absolutely can NOT be an option until the game-mode is fixed. Otherwise, people that know what they're doing will be punished, more than those who are actually offensive.

View Postrejwen, on February 28 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

I think that obligatory offline siege training for new players will help
This may help, sure, but I do not think woul solve the problem. Consider how hard it is to understand the 'king of the hill' concept. It is not, at all, even in the slightest. Or how complex needing EU to launch your ship is_ Not very difficult either.  
I may have understated when using the term 'force'.
There must be effects, both audible and visual that HIGHLY DISSUADE people from being for lack of a better word; Sh!tty.

Want to stand around with a sniper when you're well aware of the rules yet actually under the impression your uselessness is helping_ - by all means, do it with an overwhelming sound piercing your ears and giant text blocking your view, for example..

#9 Cloudstorm

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Posted February 28 2014 - 02:03 PM

Agree vey frustrating like all of us had a few matches where the fools and campers lost the game. All of the issues are easy to fix, firstly up the XP by a huge amount for time when in AA. Kills outside AA have decreased value. Also players cannot play siege until they read the guide again easy to set up.
Finally any player who does not enter AA once in game is banned for three rounds and given feedback so they know why!

#10 nokari

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Posted February 28 2014 - 02:07 PM

View Postwbg_goof, on February 28 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

This is exactly the issue. Not pilot/mech ranks, not team 'balancing', etc. It is a matter of pure ignorance, and it must be stopped.

That is just wishful thinking. There is no scenario in which you can make everyone understand or do what you want them to do. They can improve the guide or add a training exercise to introduce players to Siege and MA, and they can add a couple extra visual/audio indicators to players (despite the fact these already exist...), but you can't MAKE people do what you want. You are never going to avoid having lopsided games caused by 1 or 2 bad players.

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#11 Cloudstorm

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Posted February 28 2014 - 02:13 PM

Agree you cannot make any do anything in the game but rewards go those who care and support the team and those that do not get less rewards.
If you want changed behavior the basic psychology is feed back and more feed back!

#12 wbg_goof

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Posted February 28 2014 - 02:16 PM

View Postnokari, on February 28 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

That is just wishful thinking.

I do not believe that it is.
If i said for example; I want everyone to be good. That of course would be wishful thinking.
What we are talking about here though, is the game  itself disallowing people to get the wrong impression about how this mode is played, rather than relying on people who don't care enough to find out for themselves, or frustrated teammates helping them.

#13 nokari

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Posted February 28 2014 - 02:42 PM

View Postwbg_goof, on February 28 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

View Postnokari, on February 28 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

That is just wishful thinking.

I do not believe that it is.
If i said for example; I want everyone to be good. That of course would be wishful thinking.
What we are talking about here though, is the game  itself disallowing people to get the wrong impression about how this mode is played, rather than relying on people who don't care enough to find out for themselves, or frustrated teammates helping them.

As I said, that is still wishful thinking. You can certainly help more people understand by providing something like a detailed tutorial or practice mode, but that doesn't completely solve the problem and there's STILL no guarantee they'll listen or care.

There are moments in a game when it comes down to personal and team decision making that decides outcomes that have little to do with the mode you're playing. MA, for example, is very easy to understand. There's 3 points on the map, clearly indicated on your mini-map and there are clear visual and verbal cues of what's going on. But you can't make guides that tell people how to make strategic decisions, such as when to flank, when to group up, when to run away, etc.

For siege, at best the game can tell you what EU is, where to get it and where/how to deliver it, what the AA is and the importance of controlling it, and how the battleships work. Technically, most of this is already explained the first time someone tries siege and there are audio messages constantly throughout matches. But the game won't be able to tell you when to decide to abandon the AA and shoot at a ship, when to chase enemies vs. not chase them, or what strategy is best for when you're losing/winning.

In the end, it comes down to communication among teammates, NOT relying on the game to tell everyone what to do.
To be clear though, I do agree that it would be better if we had more detailed explanations of the mechanics of each game mode or provided a training exercise for new players. It won't solve the problem, but it will help.

Edited by nokari, February 28 2014 - 02:45 PM.

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#14 wbg_goof

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Posted February 28 2014 - 03:16 PM

What a very well thought-out reply for which I greatly appreciate the input, and I agree with for the most part.
Concerning advanced strategies; of course we can not expect the game to teach these. That would be absurd.
What I can not accept is your general opinion that there is really not much more that can be done about this issue.
This thread is not meant to bash Meteor or anyone involved in Hawken's development, but rather to assist them with the promotion of new ideas. I am not a dev., and by no means do I think that my suggestions are right any everyone elses are wrong.

Please believe that after 300+ hours of play I am well aware of existing indicators, and if I may quote myself "More texts. More sounds. More ALARMS."
At the core of this problem is, "the fact" that as they exist now, they're too easily ignored.
There is no reason for any new player to care about them, at all.
This can be easily changed with something like, Cloudstorm's suggestion of reduced points/xp, for example, and that is the point:

EASY fixes for BASIC principles

Take for example this story of playerQ.

A typical 6v6 match, that my team is losing. The MVP is (surprise) a sharpshooter, who did not set one foot in the AA the entire match, nor return a single drop of EU, and of course only MVP because he's playing TDM while the rest of us play siege.
I tried to help playerQ understand that he was not helping. That in fact, we were losing because of him, regardless of his points. Yet he was adamant, absolutely %100 convinced, that he was not playing wrong. That there was no need for him to do such things, and his score served only to secure this idea.

In no way do I accept that attempts to help change this would be considered wishful thinking.

#15 nokari

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Posted February 28 2014 - 03:23 PM

That is nothing more than an example of a typical Sharpshooter mentality, which is that their defined roll as a sharpshooter is meant to be to kill enemies from a safe distance. That is how they play. It's not thinking Siege is TDM, it's thinking that that's the most effective way of being a sniper. And it is that kind of thing that this won't do anything to stop.

I am more concerned about people who are just trying out siege and are confused as to how it's played, not people who stubbornly believe they already know what to do and expect their teammates to do the rest of the work for them.

Edited by nokari, February 28 2014 - 03:24 PM.

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#16 wbg_goof

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Posted February 28 2014 - 03:37 PM

Okay now you're just contradicting yourself.

Furthermore, breaking the 'sniper mentality' is exactly what type of situation that this thread is intended to stop.
Of course if for example they're not getting points outside the AA after hypothetical newrule-1 is introduced they're going to realize they're doing something wrong. OF COURSE. How could you misunderstand this_

Why would you care more about new players not being sure of the rules rather than people who are aware of them but choose to ignore them and are not penalized_ This is exceedingly ridiculous.

The obvious course of action is to HELP THEM realize, in-game, while it matters, and WITHOUT CHOICE, the basic principles of the mode.

#17 nokari

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Posted February 28 2014 - 04:13 PM

You can't force players to do all objectives at all times. Especially by causing a penalty if they don't do it.

It's naive to think you're going to break the sniper mentality with this. You ever hear the old idiom that you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink_
Everyone will still be able to get points through kills and other things, including shooting ship turrets. That's all part of the game. It would be dumb to disable any kind of scoring just because a person isn't standing inside the AA while a ship is in the air or making EU collection/depositing the only way to get any points. Definitely shouldn't do that since all these things are directly tied to XP earned. Siege would die out if people could get the most kills and most assists by SUPPORTING their teammates and preventing them from being outflanked for a 3000-0 win and only get a teeny tiny amount of XP for all their efforts.
I'm not saying that sniper guy was right for what he did (certainly not), but penalizing players is 10x less effective and less preferable than encouraging them with positive reinforcement. And again, you will never get that one guy who doesn't want to listen to listen. You're ignorant if you think you can.

Edited by nokari, February 28 2014 - 04:15 PM.

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#18 rejwen

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Posted February 28 2014 - 05:19 PM

I remember when I started the adventure with Hawken( with low FPS, low pilot level) the best way (smart way)  to to gain experience for mechs was taking EU and delivering to base. I think that most people feel the same way, and most importantly for the most new player was collect Energy, not defense AA. Now when I heve better graphic card (more FPS) and more experience, priority for me is take AA and defense as long as possible. So when I don't have support I often die. This mode requires an understanding of the behavioer of some players.I noticed that the priority for most new (low level) players is not winning but  to capture as much XP from delivernig EU as is possible. Sad but true :(

Edited by rejwen, February 28 2014 - 05:35 PM.

sorry for my english

#19 Slayzz

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Posted March 01 2014 - 02:54 AM

View PostCloudstorm, on February 28 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

Agree vey frustrating like all of us had a few matches where the fools and campers lost the game. All of the issues are easy to fix, firstly up the XP by a huge amount for time when in AA. Kills outside AA have decreased value. Also players cannot play siege until they read the guide again easy to set up.
Finally any player who does not enter AA once in game is banned for three rounds and given feedback so they know why!

To be banning is to hard. In this case i think my previous suggestion (for example -10% of all stats) would be a solution, with feedback of course. But if this the smartest solution, i don´t know.

Perhaps, your ship are launched you have a timer (10sec, 20sec or 30sec) to enter the AA, otherwise you get deficit of your stats (debuff x1, debuff x2 and so on), hp and dmg for example. To reset this debuff you must stay a certain time at the AA or just die. This will help to force outside sitting "campers" to consider their useless playstyle.
-- If i have a debuff, i´ll get rid of him. --

#20 Kozality

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Posted March 02 2014 - 01:02 PM

Hi there.

New pilot here, and I dropped in because I'm trying in vain to find out how you play Siege mode or Missile Assault.

I notice the comments about a lack of tutorial. I've yet to find one, and I have no way of finding out what it's about short of jumping in and hoping I don't piss someone off.

That being said, I'm going to jump into a match and see if I can ask for some help. In the meantime, could we work on putting together a little tutorial on what the mode is about that we can sticky to the forums_ At least then we'll have something to reference to people.

Thanks!




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