201 replies to this topic

[RadimentriX]

with "your calculation" i meant the 720hc per 60 minutes real playtime without win/loss-boni, which are impossible to get. ok, timelords could get it.

and still, even with different gamemodes in this example it's nearly an hour more, just to get a single weapon. and only if the player plays these different gamemodes. i don't know if random players often play siege or something without a premade group

Edited by RadimentriX, March 03 2014 - 08:01 PM.

[Nept]

I . . . don't really know what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure I covered it.

Quote

Contrary to your statement, the difference isn't "over an hour more".  The difference is (almost) exactly 53 minutes and 12 seconds.  Of course, that's all somewhat superfluous since the more meaningful number is the 12 HC per minute.  Essentially, you can always count on 12 x 60 = 720 HC per hour, plus win/loss rewards, plus daily bonuses.

The absolute worst that you could do is play a single, hour-long match of something (Siege_  Does it have a time limit_) and obtain only a single bonus (57 HC).  Using the aforementioned weapon cost, that's 8.247 units @ 62 minutes (assuming 2-minute wait time between hour-long matches) = 511.32 minutes (~) =  8.52 hours (~) = 8 hours, 31 minutes, and 12 seconds (~).

[Beemann]

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Personally, I enjoy Hawken's treatment of mech combat.  It maintains speed and emphasizes quick reaction times while necessitating spatial awareness.  And before you disagree with that one, I invite you to participate in some high level gameplay.  Mechwarrior is a vastly different mech experience, one I can't abide most of the time (MW:LL was decent).

Mechwarrior is a mech sim, Hawken is a shooter with mechs. They're ultimately different genres
I also don't think you understand. High level play was hit, ages ago
Most people from that point quit because it was stale and not going anywhere. Hawken lacks the depth of proper competitive titles because it's a game that hinders high level plays and rewards casual play.
It's also why we've consistently predicted where the game's meta is going. Hawken is in roughly the same boat as Firefall, only at least in this case the devs aren't trying to bite off more than they could ever possibly chew

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

As an old Heavy Gear/Heavy Gear 2 player, I would like nothing more than for Heavy Gear Assault to succeed.  However, your statement that "It's also probably not going to look very appealing when Heavy Gear comes out" is downright disingenuous.  We're both well aware that HG:A's in developmental limbo with their failure to procure funding, and we're both well aware that they've shown almost nothing re: gameplay.  "When" should be replaced with "If ever" and "hopefully".

Except again, all it has to do is release as a game with actual mechs and there's no sense for most mech enthusiasts to stick with Mech-UT. The issue right now is that the only options for "mech" games are Hawken and Titanfall, and neither of them are really anything more than FPS characters but bigger and clunkier

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

*Edit* Considering you're always spouting the "esports" line, I think it's worth mentioning that a frequently-cited reason for HG:A's funding failure was its emphasis on "esports" rather than on traditional (PC game) Heavy Gear scenarios.

That's because mech-focused games really aren't meant for that sort of design philosophy. Hawken was a different matter entirely in that it was never a mech-sim or particularly mech focused game. It is, and has always been, a somewhat clunky shooter that has had several different options when it comes to becoming a much deeper experience

[Rei]

Xacius, on March 03 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

[HWK]Vanashinkaku, on March 03 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

Those extra 10 minutes spent in the client!

Spoiler

Confirmed upcoming post-match rock-band gameplay mechanic, featuring bard music buffs for combat.  GG ADH

Someone say Macross 7_

[Gunmoku]

Beemann, on March 03 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

It's also why we've consistently predicted where the game's meta is going. Hawken is in roughly the same boat as Firefall, only at least in this case the devs aren't trying to bite off more than they could ever possibly chew

Firefall's development wasn't because of devs biting off more than they could chew, most of them were ex Blizzard devs from World of Warcraft's team. It was their overbearing control freak of a CEO who constantly took the reins of the dev teams and made swooping changes without consideration of their consequences whom also squandered away hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars on pet projects that were usually failures and barely saw the light of day.  I have a bit of faith now that he was formally kicked out of the studio, Red-5 will attempt to right the course and get the game on a proper track.

I don't think that's the case here.  Hawken's devs are at least taking heed to our words and trying to get the game into a better place.  Sure they haven't addressed every bruise and blemish on the game, but who really could with deadlines to keep and sponsors to keep happy_  Everyone's expecting these changes to happen right away or practically overnight.  They usually aren't going to because of multiple consequences the changes have on the bearing of the game (i.e the HC economy at large, the group meta, mech builds, etc.) and it's likely going to take some time to nail down changes as huge as these.  Look at how long it took to get the gameplay to a near-tolerable state.  That was almost, what, a full year's worth of patch cycles_

Edited by Gunmoku, March 03 2014 - 08:59 PM.

[Beemann]

Gunmoku, on March 03 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

Firefall's development wasn't because of devs biting off more than they could chew, most of them were ex Blizzard devs from World of Warcraft's team. It was their overbearing control freak of a CEO who constantly took the reins of the dev teams and made swooping changes without consideration of their consequences whom also squandered away hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars on pet projects that were usually failures and barely saw the light of day.  I have a bit of faith now that he was formally kicked out of the studio, Red-5 will attempt to right the course and get the game on a proper track.

Red5 has spent 2 years in beta with PvP that doesn't work and a PvE system that takes way too much work to maintain at the level they want it to operate at. They also want to have an open world PvP system with bases, tech trees and vehicle battles
Firefall is where budgets go to die. The poor leadership they had only made it worse

Gunmoku, on March 03 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

I don't think that's the case here.  Hawken's devs are at least taking heed to our words and trying to get the game into a better place.  Sure they haven't addressed every bruise and blemish on the game, but who really could with deadlines to keep and sponsors to keep happy_  Everyone's expecting these changes to happen right away or practically overnight.  They usually aren't going to because of multiple consequences the changes have on the bearing of the game (i.e the HC economy at large, the group meta, mech builds, etc.) and it's likely going to take some time to nail down changes as huge as these.  Look at how long it took to get the gameplay to a near-tolerable state.  That was almost, what, a full year's worth of patch cycles_

Hawken has had some of the same major issues since Alpha, and have only had to fix other stuff because they broke it after Alpha
They're also trying to have Hawken be A: more than just a game (comics, shows, card games) and B: a tech demo on UE3
Their patch frequency has only recently matched their competition, and we're dealing with a very small timeframe to judge that in
Also in reference to them supposedly heeding the playerbase, I have but two questions:
What happened in HAB then_
Who asked for the technician_

I could go on, but we'd be here all night

[Nept]

Beemann, on March 03 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Personally, I enjoy Hawken's treatment of mech combat.  It maintains speed and emphasizes quick reaction times while necessitating spatial awareness.  And before you disagree with that one, I invite you to participate in some high level gameplay.  Mechwarrior is a vastly different mech experience, one I can't abide most of the time (MW:LL was decent).

Mechwarrior is a mech sim, Hawken is a shooter with mechs. They're ultimately different genres
I also don't think you understand. High level play was hit, ages ago
Most people from that point quit because it was stale and not going anywhere. Hawken lacks the depth of proper competitive titles because it's a game that hinders high level plays and rewards casual play.

Honestly, I really don't think that you did.  I think that you think that you did. But I don't think that you did.  We scrim fairly regularly now, and you're welcome to hop in with us for a few matches.  Hell, you're welcome to just come in and play against us for five minutes (ever).

Beemann, on March 03 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

As an old Heavy Gear/Heavy Gear 2 player, I would like nothing more than for Heavy Gear Assault to succeed.  However, your statement that "It's also probably not going to look very appealing when Heavy Gear comes out" is downright disingenuous.  We're both well aware that HG:A's in developmental limbo with their failure to procure funding, and we're both well aware that they've shown almost nothing re: gameplay.  "When" should be replaced with "If ever" and "hopefully".

Except again, all it has to do is release as a game with actual mechs and there's no sense for most mech enthusiasts to stick with Mech-UT. The issue right now is that the only options for "mech" games are Hawken and Titanfall, and neither of them are really anything more than FPS characters but bigger and clunkier

Except that's a massive oversimplification.  We have NO IDEA what the gameplay will look like and NO IDEA whether they'll ever be able to obtain funding.  You're speculating to the extreeeeeeme.

Beemann, on March 03 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

*Edit* Considering you're always spouting the "esports" line, I think it's worth mentioning that a frequently-cited reason for HG:A's funding failure was its emphasis on "esports" rather than on traditional (PC game) Heavy Gear scenarios.

That's because mech-focused games really aren't meant for that sort of design philosophy. Hawken was a different matter entirely in that it was never a mech-sim or particularly mech focused game. It is, and has always been, a somewhat clunky shooter that has had several different options when it comes to becoming a much deeper experience

Again, massive speculation.  You're entitled to your opinion on that one, but you'll never be able to support it adequately enough for my liking.

Edited by Nept, March 03 2014 - 09:32 PM.

[Gunmoku]

Beemann, on March 03 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

Hawken has had some of the same major issues since Alpha, and have only had to fix other stuff because they broke it after Alpha
They're also trying to have Hawken be A: more than just a game (comics, shows, card games) and B: a tech demo on UE3
Their patch frequency has only recently matched their competition, and we're dealing with a very small timeframe to judge that in
Also in reference to them supposedly heeding the playerbase, I have but two questions:
What happened in HAB then_
Who asked for the technician_

I could go on, but we'd be here all night

HAB was a failure because the community as a whole couldn't stop b**ching and moaning about the sense of entitlement that was barely there.  People were too hungry for news and they created too much false drama that it led to the untimely demise of a development program that could have helped the game go places.  TBH, they should've put up with the drama, banned or dealt with the drama-mamas and kept it going.

Technician is likely a failed experiment at creating a support meta-game that people were discussing here on the forums and at Adhesive.  Not many games are developed 100% by the players and I'm kind of disappointed nobody has owned up to the mistake made by the Technician's introduction.

There's a Hawken card game on the way it looks like.  Dunno about that series.  We already got a comic series.  I'm all for cross-pollinating across different forms of media, but they should consolidate the story and lore into the game instead of us having to find these tidbits of plot strewn across the internet and comic world.

I know a lot of older players like you, or me, have grown bitter more and more towards the game but I think it's starting to hit that turning point where we either band together and help get the game out of this rut or we cut our losses and go elsewhere.  I'm willing to stick it out and see where this is headed, especially since the move to Steam, but I don't know about some other people.

[driedjello]

[Gunmoku]

driedjello, on March 03 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

Auction house confirmed.

[Beemann]

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

Honestly, I really don't think that you did.  I think that you think that you did. But I don't think that you did.  We scrim fairly regularly now, and you're welcome to hop in with us for a few matches.  Hell, you're welcome to just come in and play against us for five minutes (ever).

You're free to think that, just as you're free to ignore what puts the current dominant esports on a much higher level, but that doesn't make it any less delusional
You do know that those oh-so-terrible ex SK members have been in your scrims right_ It's not like I don't know how the meta is working out. I'm just not particularly impressed
Again, Hawken is shallow and predictable. I've been calling out exactly how the meta will change with pretty much every patch, and I've been right every time

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

We have NO IDEA what the gameplay will look like

I made a statement dependent on a particular requirement

Quote

all it has to do is release as a game with actual mechs and there's no sense for most mech enthusiasts to stick with Mech-UT

You *do* read responses before replying right_ Additionally, I hope you understand that there's a large portion of Hawken's playerbase that came here from MWO pretty much solely because that game turned out to be a hefty pile of ass
If another game can offer an actual mechsim experience, there's no reason for that audience to stay here

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Again, massive speculation.

It's actually not
Mechsims are generally slower and much more team focused, which is the kind of setup that works for a high tension game like CS, but not a low tension long TTK slugfest

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

You're entitled to your opinion on that one, but you'll never be able to support it adequately enough for my liking.

Well then I suppose it's a good thing your preferences are inconsequential.

Gunmoku, on March 03 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

HAB was a failure because the community as a whole couldn't stop b**ching and moaning about the sense of entitlement that was barely there.  People were too hungry for news and they created too much false drama that it led to the untimely demise of a development program that could have helped the game go places.  TBH, they should've put up with the drama, banned or dealt with the drama-mamas and kept it going.

Nope
HAB was a failure because ADH had already decided what they wanted to do with the game and who they wanted to listen to. Then Ascension failed

Gunmoku, on March 03 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

Technician is likely a failed experiment at creating a support meta-game that people were discussing here on the forums and at Adhesive.  Not many games are developed 100% by the players and I'm kind of disappointed nobody has owned up to the mistake made by the Technician's introduction.

So why is it still here in the same form it came in initially_
Heck, even Red5 and Riot managed to re-purpose their poorly designed healers. It's not even like ADH has to start being original

Gunmoku, on March 03 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

There's a Hawken card game on the way it looks like.  Dunno about that series.  We already got a comic series.  I'm all for cross-pollinating across different forms of media, but they should consolidate the story and lore into the game instead of us having to find these tidbits of plot strewn across the internet and comic world.

The issue is that those things work ONLY if the game gains a certain amount of momentum. Hawken is *not* a big release. It's attached to a streaming device that is rapidly losing relevance and a set of VR goggles that 10001 other games already support or plan to support. It's not being released by a large company with a hefty marketing budget, it's being released by a team that has already let go of 3 community managers and who knows how many others

Gunmoku, on March 03 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

I know a lot of older players like you, or me, have grown bitter more and more towards the game but I think it's starting to hit that turning point where we either band together and help get the game out of this rut or we cut our losses and go elsewhere.  I'm willing to stick it out and see where this is headed, especially since the move to Steam, but I don't know about some other people.

Honestly the game could easily be salvaged, I just don't think ADH is going to do it as long as the fairly small forum community keeps this circlejerk going. It really doesn't feel like they have any specific set of design goals anymore, and hasn't for over 6 months

[Jerk]

Beemann, on March 03 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

Mech-UT

I'm cool with that.

MWO was fun, but Hawken is a lot more fun.

Pity that both are crippled by terrible F2P and other issues, but in terms of core gameplay Hawken is solid.

[Nept]

Beemann, on March 03 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

*Snip

Honestly, I think you need to prove to the entire community that you and your friends are strong players before spouting off about high-tier play.  You can't continue to claim knowledge without having demonstrated any in-game ability.  And that's not a personal attack.  If you're going to continue to claim experience with high-tier play, you're going to have to demonstrate that high-tier play.  Pretty simple stuff.

As for the rest, it's still massive speculation.  Speculating about it more doesn't make it less speculative.

[Beemann]

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Beemann, on March 03 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

*Snip

Honestly, I think you need to prove to the entire community that you and your friends are strong players before spouting off about high-tier play.  You can't continue to claim knowledge without having demonstrated any in-game ability.  And that's not a personal attack.  If you're going to continue to claim experience with high-tier play, you're going to have to demonstrate that high-tier play.  Pretty simple stuff.

As for the rest, it's still massive speculation.  Speculating about it more doesn't make it less speculative.

Right, so the times SK won, placed second or third on a whim, etc. don`t count because we haven`t played the forum popularity contest. I`m not going to play this pointless little game where the goalposts constantly shift to preserve your ego. You can keep hitting massive hitboxes with hitscan weapons and if that`s all a competitive game needs to be for you, more power to ya

[Nept]

I've been playing this game for over a year now, and I've not seen you play once.  Not once.  And I'm fairly certain no current top-tier players would consider you - or most of your ex-clanmates - strong players.  This isn't about ego, much as you'd apparently like it to be.  You can't keep touting a single tournament win from a time when none of us played - from a time where the community was neither particularly skilled, nor particularly experienced.

This is about you making claims without being able to back them with experience or knowledge or ability.  There's a simple solution.

Come play.

Edited by Nept, March 03 2014 - 10:27 PM.

[Gunmoku]

Beemann, on March 03 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

-Snip-

All I'm seeing here is a bunch of bitter talk about "How this game could be saved" and gloating about how you correctly predicted the meta-game.  I know that you've tended to call the shots right, but it's clear all you've been doing since the Steam patch is complain about the game.  If it really has gotten that bad and you think it could be better, then why not just wait or move on_  It's clear you think this game has become a "lost cause".

[Beemann]

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:

I've been playing this game for over a year now, and I've not seen you play once.  Not once.  And I'm fairly certain no current top-tier players would consider you - or most of your ex-clanmates - strong players.  This isn't about ego, much as you'd apparently like it to be.  You can't keep touting a single tournament win from a time when none of us played - from a time where the community was neither particularly skilled, nor particularly experienced.

This is about you making claims without being able to back them with experience or knowledge or ability.  There's a simple solution.

Come play.

Protip: There`s been more than one tournament, back from when a time period where you can`t actually gauge the skill level because by your own admission neither you, nor most of the people you played with, were around then

There's also been more recent stuff, but of course that doesn't count because you don't want it to

This is about your ego, plain and simple. If you`re going to be buttblasted because I don`t think a causal shooter is worth my time, well... that just makes this whole thing even better

Gunmoku, on March 03 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:

All I'm seeing here is a bunch of bitter talk about "How this game could be saved" and gloating about how you correctly predicted the meta-game.  I know that you've tended to call the shots right, but it's clear all you've been doing since the Steam patch is complain about the game.  If it really has gotten that bad and you think it could be better, then why not just wait or move on_  It's clear you think this game has become a "lost cause".

I'd prefer to see thirty or so people keep their jobs, even if a number of them have been jerks
It's not a matter of "tending to". We've been calling out these steps because they're the *same* steps that Firefall took, only without the introspection and consideration that was actually helping it along in spite of its silly budget and poor management. Rather, I've seen ADH be entirely dismissive of criticism
In that respect, Hawken's a little more like GA (or very early Firefall), which is yet another not-very-flattering comparison
I continue to call these things out because they continue to be problems, and people continue to ignore them. It really doesn't particularly matter if a small group of people on the forums enjoys the game unless they're perfectly happy supporting the game all on their own, and I kinda doubt ADH desires that sort of fate for their game. The scope of their non-game projects and the deals they've made suggests they want this game to be MUCH bigger than it currently is, but there's a number of issues that are driving players away and they're really not getting much attention at all.

I know everyone likes to talk about Hawken like it exists in a vacuum, but there's a few other games that have taken these same steps. That's why we've been able to predict everything, and that's why it's concerning. None of those games have managed to be successful in the long run

Edited by Beemann, March 03 2014 - 11:02 PM.

[Xacius]

Beemann, on March 03 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Beemann, on March 03 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

*Snip

Honestly, I think you need to prove to the entire community that you and your friends are strong players before spouting off about high-tier play.  You can't continue to claim knowledge without having demonstrated any in-game ability.  And that's not a personal attack.  If you're going to continue to claim experience with high-tier play, you're going to have to demonstrate that high-tier play.  Pretty simple stuff.

As for the rest, it's still massive speculation.  Speculating about it more doesn't make it less speculative.

Right, so the times SK won, placed second or third on a whim, etc. don`t count because we haven`t played the forum popularity contest. I`m not going to play this pointless little game where the goalposts constantly shift to preserve your ego. You can keep hitting massive hitboxes with hitscan weapons and if that`s all a competitive game needs to be for you, more power to ya

First: Red Herring fallacy.  This has nothing to do with ego.  

Second: I think you're avoiding the point.   The gameplay has changed considerably since the early months of 2013.  Assuming they've stopped playing the game, the top players back then wouldn't stand a chance against the top players now.  At that, some of the players that played in those days are still around, and most have improved substantially in the past year.  Old "top players" have returned intermittently, only to be trounced by top members of the active playerbase.  

Third: Top tier play back then was nothing compared to current top-tier play, partly because the meta has shifted considerably, but also because the top players have improved substantially over time.  

Edited by Xacius, March 03 2014 - 11:37 PM.

[Nept]

Beemann, on March 03 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

This is about your ego, plain and simple. If you`re going to be buttblasted because I don`t think a causal shooter is worth my time, well... that just makes this whole thing even better

Again, not about ego.  You're just talking the talk without walking the walk (plain and simple).  If you're going to comment on high-level play using your experience and abilities as a base, you need to be able to provide evidence through your in-game activities.  And it's odd that you use the 'not worth my time' excuse when you can't seem to stop posting.  If you spent one twentieth the time playing that you do posting, I would've seen you in-game by now.

Edited by Nept, March 03 2014 - 11:44 PM.

[Beemann]

Xacius, on March 03 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

First: Red Herring fallacy.  This has nothing to do with ego.  

Yeah I'm going to have to get that statement from a more reliable source

Xacius, on March 03 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

Second: I think you're avoiding the point.   The gameplay has changed considerably since the early months of 2013.  Assuming they've stopped playing the game, the top players back then wouldn't stand a chance against the top players now.  At that, some of the players that played in those days are still around, and most have improved substantially in the past year.  Old "top players" have returned intermittently, only to be trounced by top members of the active playerbase.  

Those who have stuck around continue to perform at a decent to high level depending on the number of fuzzy bunny they still give. I think we both know the sorts of players I'm referring to, and I think it's laughable that you're trying to dismiss them at this point. That sort of attitude is nothing but ego talking.

Xacius, on March 03 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

Third: Top tier play back then was nothing compared to current top-tier play, partly because the meta has shifted considerably, but also because the top players have improved substantially over time.  

No Xacius, they just left. You did alright back then, but you weren't at the cap. I wouldn't doubt that you hit it, but it was pretty much after every relevant clan/player left. It's nice that the scrim group has basically slowly built itself back up again, but there's still an awful lot of BSB vs BSB fuzzy bunny going on, which was something I was concerned about even when there were several other viable clans around
I really hope you don't think there's anywhere for you to go at this point. Knowing the optimal combos, having a decently organized team and being used to Hawken's ass-backwards aiming system are pretty much all its ever taken. Movement and resource management have varied, but have ultimately been in a poorer state than in Alpha.

Nept, on March 03 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Again, not about ego.  You're just talking the talk without walking the walk (plain and simple).  If you're going to comment on high-level play using your experience and abilities as a base, you need to be able to provide evidence through your in-game activities.  And it's odd that you use the 'not worth my time' excuse when you can't seem to stop posting.  If you spent one twentieth the time playing that you do posting, I would've seen you in-game by now.

I wouldn't even be able to get into a match if we're going off of weekly posting
Fact of the matter is that the walk has been walked, both by myself and by the members who continue to play. Your insistence that it hasn't flies in the face of the actual facts. I'm just sticking around because this is kinda fun in a GA-forums sorta way

On another note, it's really lame that ADH hates callout threads so much (when they dont pertain to aimbotters that is)
They're actually pretty fun if done well. Back and forth trashtalk is not only entertaining, and actually not at all unhealthy in moderation, but is also vastly preferable to this passive aggressive smug fuzzy bunny