117 replies to this topic

[SlipperyJohnson]

The most important part of balance for pvp games in developer discussions is making sure classes aren't anti-fun. This means making sure that a game's play isn't unnecessarily worsened by something that takes away parts of what makes a game fun.

The very nature of the Rocketeer is taking away skill from skillshots, it's the class that makes the other side quit as soon as it's entered the enemy team. you could say it's forgiveable as you could argue it needs to be implemented to counter A-classes, but this point alone isn't just what makes rocketeers anti-fun. It takes away any reward of skilful play and dodging when your playing a C, B or A-class., making it detrimental to both sides and when mixed with a massive base armor it's extremely hard to focus down before your team drop like flies, so the solution of taking it out first so we can play a fun normal game again is out of the question.

Don't get me wrong the Rocketeer is beatable and you can prevent a shot with corner dodging, it's not completely broken, it just fundamentally makes the game a worse place to be once they are picked. You can no longer fight in the open, you can no longer dodge and dying to those rockets that have been shot over an obstacle from somebody out of sight is the most frustrating thing in the game right now.

Can we please come up with a change that prevents rocketeers from making a game result in teams sitting behind obstacles at each end of the map before they quit_

[hawken00]

I agree on most of the post

Edited by hawken00, March 06 2014 - 07:48 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

Hellfires are slow and easy to dodge, and in cqc the rocketeer is a sitting duck.

[diablodevil2]

I don't think anyone who's played the game a couple months is going to quit a match just because of the Rocketeer. A lot of people that know the game kinda see it as underwhelming, I think...even if hellfires annoy them a bit.

[hawken00]

Superkamikazee, on March 06 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

Hellfires are slow and easy to dodge, and in cqc the rocketeer is a sitting duck.

If there's only one guy with Hellfires, yes. Add 1 Rocketeer, and here comes the Hellfires spam. Add another one, and it completely ruins the gameplay

[HatesYourFace]

Yeah I don't worry too much about most Rocketeers, honestly I'd rather take one of them on then a Gren.

But every now and then you come across a really good Rocketeer pilot who knows to constantly keep space between you and is never out of position. This can be difficult to counter, but so is any mech played by a really good pilot who's never out of position.

[LazarusRizing]

I do find myself often being frustrated when playing against anything with hellfires. Especially when I duck behind cover and still get hit. It's not so bad when there's only one or two enemy mechs with them (except for on bunker, but we don't talk about that) But when I step out for a second and get spammed by hellfires from three directions before I can get a shot off or get back into cover, I do find it rather frustrating.

Anyway, there's only really a couple things that could be done to it anyway. Reduce the damage the rockets give, increase lock-on time, reduce the turning radius of the rockets, or have lock go away instantly when the enemy dodges behind a wall. Personally, I think that reducing the turning radius would be the best thing to do. Rockets should not be able to do a 90 degree turn over the top of a wall. Also, reducing turning radius doesn't effect the dps of the rockets, it just makes them harder to use when your enemy is around cover.

tl;dr moderately reduce turning radius for hellfires

[FakeName]

I would be fine with an item called FLARES
which basically disbales every tracking weapon for a short duration (around 2-3 seconds) and is only for a specific area (a bigger one).
Tracking weapons are weapons like Hellfire, Seeker, Helix Torch, EOC (mines will only explode if mechs are stepping DIRECTLY on it) etc.

[ropefish]

*is one of the best rocketeer pilots*
below mexi and some others, a lot of rocketeers just spam, its really and art and those few know how to play that thing
in a deadly and terrifying way . . ..

Edited by ropefish, March 06 2014 - 07:14 AM.

[LazarusRizing]

FakeName, on March 06 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

I would be fine with an item called FLARES
which basically disbales every tracking weapon for a short duration (around 2-3 seconds) and is only for a specific area (a bigger one).
Tracking weapons are weapons like Hellfire, Seeker, Helix Torch, EOC (mines will only explode if mechs are stepping DIRECTLY on it) etc.

That would actually be awesome. I would definitely use that item. It'd especially be brilliant in siege if you're running back to the base with low health and have a hellfire mech on your tail.

[angryhampster]

if you can dodge a hellfire rocket, you can dodge a ball....

it's insanely easy to dodge hellfires, and i find it quite fun.

[Planerunner]

Quote

it's the class that makes the other side quit as soon as it's entered the enemy team.

Funny, I thought that honor was reserved for triple snipers (SS and/or Reaper) once the Steam patch dropped.

Honestly, I don't see anyone quit because a Rocketeer joined a match. This sounds more like someone who got gibbed one too many times by a decent player in a single match.

The Rocketeer (and to a lesser extent the Bruiser) is all about positioning and radar awareness. If you can't consistently survive against a rocketeer, that means you need to learn to watch your radar better, pay more attention to your surroundings, and LISTEN for the lock. I am NEVER dominated by a Rocketeer unless there are 3 of them on Bunker. That map has design problems. And even then, I bust out my Rocketeer and fight fire with fire.

Look, I'm far more concerned with how maps affect how well I can do with or against a Hellfire-equipped mech. Hellfires pack a wallop, but they are slow, dodgable, and you will always hear them coming. No Rocketeer will dumbfire his Hellfires unless it out of close-range desperation. Use that to your advantage. If you are on a map designed for long range, such as Last Eco or Bunker, know that those maps naturally favor the Rocketeer. Stick close to walls. Pay attention to your surroundings and keep cover nearby. It isn't hard to do. Just because you have to change how you play doesn't mean the Hellfire is dominant . . . it just means you have to adapt.

Likewise, if you're playing on something like Wreckage, or Frontline, the Rocketeer will struggle, or at least have a much harder time landing shots. The mech is a big, slow, fat target. It is HORRIBLE at close range. On maps with lots of cover, ambush the scum and kill it. No mech dominates this game all the time, or on every map. The Rocketeer is good in certain situations, and it does do better in the current meta than it did during Ascension.

However. The player very much still determines the outcome.

[LONEDEADWOLF]

LMAO....ok so did you people forget the Bruiser_   Try going against a full team of that and then come back and say the Rocketeer is anti fun......lol Close quarter combat and long range capabilities...make for a hell day in any game....but still not anti fun..

[mrvile]

Up until now I had been playing almost exclusively A-class and I never really had an issue with Rocketeers, except on the Bunker map (which is more a factor of bad map design). I found myself getting killed by Grenadiers about the same amount as Rocketeers... but overall, C-class were always relatively low threat to me and generally easy to defeat 1v1.

Anyway, I started getting burnt out on the A-class thing so I started wondering what the C-class was all about. Brawler was kind of boring and I like rockets over grenades, so I picked the Rocketeer and started playing matches with it. At first, I was honestly having a lot of trouble shaking my A-class habits and ended up getting myself into a lot of situations where I was suddenly outnumbered and couldn't get away. The Rocketeer to me feels like its effectiveness really depends on the player's ability to manage the enemy's movements and not let them get too close. The weapons (I'm just using Seeker + Hellfire right now) can feel cheap, but Seekers are slow, low damage, and and experienced player can easily dodge Hellfires. As soon as a decent Scout or Berserker has my number, they are able to dance around the missiles and really make me squirm.

I am getting better with the Rocketeer and it seems to require more skill knowing where to be and when to shoot rather than how well I can aim and track targets. Considering its homing weapons, the Rocketeer actually feels very balanced against the other mechs, and I only feel like I have any sort of advantage on Bunker. Believe it or not, Hellfires can be pretty fun and rewarding to use once you figure out how they work, and can take quite a bit of practice to learn how they behave and how to really use them effectively (for example, arc shots have a tighter spread than straight shots). The different skill requirement is a refreshing change from my go-to Berserker, and at the end of the day I still feel more confident and get more kills in a Berserker or Scout than my Rocketeer. I play Rocketeer because it's different, not because it's better.

Edited by mrvile, March 06 2014 - 07:40 AM.

[XxFarrenxX]

I disagree on Hellfires being a skill-less weapon, however the weapon does allow low skill play, and against low skill players it's super effective. The Rocketeer itself is not a low skill mech, but has the same logic of my Hellfire statement. There's a lot you can do with both and it can be quite fun to do trickshots and such.

One good player against the average low skill Rocketeer play wrecks that Rocketeer ten times outta ten. That's where being a good Rocketeer user is required to be effective. A good Rocketeer is a more challenging prospect, and one I personally enjoy playing against for the challenge and practice.

You can argue the inability to get to the Rocketeer, Tech supporting a Rocketeer, and any situation you wish. Doesn't change anything. With coordination or/and good play Rocketeers are wastes of space. Most Rocketeers can't handle cqc in any way, and even good ones will probably lose if you get in close/stay hyper mobile due to the weapons and C class mobility.

Bunker and similar maps have popularized the mass Rocketeer/SS/Reaper/Bruiser strategy, which is a horrible thing, I agree. It's difficult to beat on those maps and feels like it forces you to play the same way due to the map. This isn't the mechs necessarily, it's the maps. You can just not play those maps until something is changed.

The big determining factor of the Rocketeer/Hellfire is skill, (Like most of Hawken if not all of it), his and yours. On that basis it's pretty balanced, but in a case by case basis it can feel unbalanced, which is just your skill and not the mech design. I haven't even touched on the Bruiser, but that wasn't necessarily a part of the discussion, although some of what I said can apply to the Bruiser.

This is my opinion of course.

[hawken00]

As I said, the problem comes when there are 2-3 or more Hellfire-equipped mechs on an open map or siege map. Which can be rare because the majority of players don't like to use that weapon, and most people will comment without having experienced it. Of course in 1v1 it is easy to counter if you know how to play..

Edited by hawken00, March 06 2014 - 07:47 AM.

[XxFarrenxX]

hawken00, on March 06 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

As I said, the problem comes when there are 2-3 or more Hellfire-equipped mechs. Which can be rare because the majority of players don't like to use that weapon, and most people will comment without having experienced it. Of course in 1v1 it is easy to counter if you know how to play..

If there are groups of say Rocketeers, than all you have to do is group up and kill them. It's pretty straightforward really. Just because there's more than one doesn't mean you can't bring friends. The obvious counter to this statement is that your team is bad. Then play with a Clan/organized play so you at least have someone who you can communicate and coordinate effectively with. Organized play has better quality anyway.

On maps like Bunker, the problem is the map, not the mech lineup. As I said just avoid the map.

[mittens800]

Rocketeer is fun!

Seekers don't always hit and in CQC they're hard to use.
Same for hellfire.

Of course when you play against noobies... but you could say the same thing about scout or flying zerker.  Or any other mech.

DON'T TOUCH MY ROCKETEER!!!  That and Vanguard are my fav C mechs.  It's such a fun support mech to use.
If you're constantly dominated by HF your team probably sucks   Yeah it sucks when that happens, wait for next round.

Plus, if you are getting killed on Bunker from up-fired hellfires when you're in "cover", you're in the wrong cover.  
I wonder what those taller mountains are for, hmmmm...   Or snuggling up to the AA, or whatever.

[hawken00]

XxFarrenxX, on March 06 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

hawken00, on March 06 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

As I said, the problem comes when there are 2-3 or more Hellfire-equipped mechs. Which can be rare because the majority of players don't like to use that weapon, and most people will comment without having experienced it. Of course in 1v1 it is easy to counter if you know how to play..

If there are groups of say Rocketeers, than all you have to do is group up and kill them. It's pretty straightforward really. Just because there's more than one doesn't mean you can't bring friends. The obvious counter to this statement is that your team is bad. Then play with a Clan/organized play so you at least have someone who you can communicate and coordinate effectively with. Organized play has better quality anyway.

On maps like Bunker, the problem is the map, not the mech lineup. As I said just avoid the map.

Well a lot of players are bad in public matches, and I wouldn't say that I am a god either, but that is not the point. You don't have to do organized matchups to have fun, and the point of this thread is that Hellfires are kinda anti-fun. Map is bad_ Then get it off the rotation, but if it stays that's because the devs Think its fine...

[Komodo_Saurian]

Remember when you were feeling threatened by a Rocketeer you were called a good for nothing noob_