50 replies to this topic

[Silk_Sk]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 18 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

Silk_Sk, on March 18 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on March 18 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

I recommend veteran players create new accounts so they can get a feel for the current economy before discussing this.

No. It's impossible for us to even moderately simulate what newer players are experiencing. We already know what we want to buy. We don't have to try out different builds and different mechs because we already know what we want. Our experience with dummy accounts is with the minimum amount of grind that is possible. The kind of grind NO new player can experience without doing massive amounts of research.

No_
I don't understand.

First off, you can simulate an increase in how long it takes by rolling dice to choose your internals/items etc. Assign a minimum amount of playtime with using things you don't like before "deciding" you don't like it (to simulate time it takes to decide you don't like it) and being able to pick another.

Besides, I said "get a feel for", not "know exactly what a new player goes through". Fact is the grind is fairly different than what many veteran players have experienced, and even if they go through an streamlined leveling experience, they at least have a more relevant baseline of reference, rather than trying to go on memories of an outdated system.

I'm sorry, but I just can't see why you would say "no".
Isn't it better if people have some sort of relevant experience rather than argue from the standpoint of complete ignorance_

But even with just rolling dice, are we wasting money_ No, because we're good enough to know that it doesn't matter all that much what's on our mechs as long as we're skilled. Newer players have no such knowledge and are actually capable of feeling buyers remorse. They may buy a perfectly good internal and think it sucks, but they can't purchase another because they have to grind for it. They can't see how easy the grind really is. They're just starting so it seems like a lot, regardless of facts. They have no freedom to try out a bunch of different internals and settle on a style of play before the grind hits. And what's our answer to that_ Suck it up and keep playing_ Hope the next thing you buy will be the magical item that makes you good at the game_ And when it isn't, grind away for another 5 hours and buy another one only to be disappointed again until you realize the items and internals don't matter one bit compared to actual skill_

fuzzy bunny that. New players should have fun and buy all the internals they want for one or two mechs before they hit the grind wall. By that point they've equated buying new things with having fun rather than thinking its work, and they will continue to grind for new things because they've been programmed to think that its fun. This was the perfect system that the HC rewards made possible.

I repeat, there is NO WAY WHATSOEVER for a veteran player to empathize with the grind new players are experiencing.

Edited by Silk_Sk, March 18 2014 - 05:34 PM.

[Ls777]

IareDave, on March 18 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

Adhesive has to make money somehow.

Looks like they found it - and I approve.

This is a classic argument, and its dumb.

You wont make any money if your players feel like they are getting ripped off, and stop playing.
Its literally the more players you get the more money you will make. Why do you think tf2 is making ridiculous amounts of money, even though you get instant access to all classes and you randomly get free weapons without having to put much effort

IareDave, on March 18 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

You can earn 1000 credits by doing all the dailies, combined with the actual amount you make from the matches and you're looking at 1500-2000 credits. You can do that less than an hour. Really not that hard.

Thats if you can even do the daily. I spent like 2 hours the other day, just wanting to get my siege daily and missle attack daily. about 5-6 rounds each mode, stuck carrying the losing team.



As a new player, I will say that the reward system just isn't here for new players yet. You cant get cosmetics, you can't get new mechs, you can't get new weapons without hours of play. The game underneath is good and worth it, but new players don't know that yet.

Edited by Ls777, March 18 2014 - 02:40 PM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

AJK, I've created lots of new accounts since ishmael sucked so bad on my old laptop.  With a speedy new i5 Haswell/GTX660, I'm doing well now.

With each new account, I'm reminded of the purity of the game in 'just-AR-and-TOW' mode, and I have mad skills I *could* use to rack up kills at the low level.  I still move off the CRT as fast as I can...  with Ishmael_2, my latest scrub account (I'm not trying to hide anything from anyone), I played the Vanguard test-drive (then, the Infil test-drive), moved immediately to the Assault when I had the HC, and bought Deflectors and Extractor.  

I *didn't* pick up a basic Fusor, waited until lvl-21 for the big one, because I already knew I was going solely Assault (and Vanguard) on the account.

I guess what I'm saying is - I can experience the grind, but not through new eyes.

[xXHadronCutterXx]

The daily awards are honestly fuzzy bunny.
The only one appropriate at the moment is for TDM. Everything else is just unfair. Most notorious one is the DM one, how oftenly do you win a DM_ You can do well oftenly, but placing first is difficult and you'll have to play a few matches to achive this. MA/Siege matches take too long and it's really a matter of just getting on the winning team. I litterally got a daily award for Siege for just joining the winning team less than a minute before the match ended. Another thing that bothers me is that when teams are unbalanced in Siege/MA, I don't want to switch because I'm basically giving up my daily award if I do and I have to waste another 30 minutes to play. I only play this game an hour a day, sometimes two, so this isn't really an option for me.

That's just from personal experience though, but really, wouldn't it be better if it just awarded you for playing an entire match from beggining to end in each game mode_ Would promote less rage quitting.

[Luminescent]

Here's the link to the economy guide: http://steamcommunit...scn=1395140587.

Things worth noting is:
Players can earn up to 6,850 HC for the service awards (and 500 mc - 4450 HC equiv - from the 1 hour of playing)

For earn rates players can earn anywhere around the 850 (low end) mark and quite possibly over 900 HC an hour (In my initial calculations i thought that the 50 second pre-start time didn't count towards HC - so i had an average of 2 min wait per match - but it turns out you do in fact earn HC during this time so I recalculated for 1 min between matches). For the below calculation I have used an earn rate of 900 per hour.

If a player were to buy all mechs, a single set of items and internals for each mech and unlock both alternative weapons it would take them 620 hours excluding all other hc earning methods (service awards, daily bonus, etc) or 840 hours to get all mechs, 2 sets of internals and items for each mech and the 2 weapon unlocks. Assuming an average playtime of 2 hours per day then including other earn methods (assuming 750 from daily awards) it would take 580 hours of gameplay to get 2 sets of items and internals as well as both weapon unlocks and mechs - So in less than a year they could easily have everything. If you want to assume players are constantly doing things between matches, etc (so longer wait times) you can increase the above value by 10%.

You can easily make your own calculations as all the data is detailed in the above guide.

In terms of reaching max pilot level it will take anywhere from a low of 60 hours to up to 100 hours or more.

While the overall time required is actually not that bad, there needs to a more exaggerated curve between the earn rates in the beginning compared to those at later stages (I.e. it should be something like what the pilot level currently does). As the OP suggests service awards are probably the easiest way to address that issue.

I also think there needs to be something more when increasing pilot levels. While the current test drives do include items and internals I still feel they fail to let players properly "try before they buy". I think the concept of rent unlocks would work well in Hawken especially if they were tied to increasing your pilot level. Each rent unlock would allow 24 hours of play for either a category of internals (so if there are slot values for the same internal they can try the different ones, e.g. basic failsafe and standard failsafe), all MK tiers for a single item or an alternative weapon. By tying them to increasing pilot levels players will get a large pile of them to test everything at the start of the game and slowly die off as they play for longer periods of time.

Edited by Luminescent, March 18 2014 - 03:21 PM.

[IareDave]

Null_Wing, on March 18 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

IareDave, on March 18 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

You can earn 1000 credits by doing all the dailies, combined with the actual amount you make from the matches and you're looking at 1500-2000 credits. You can do that less than an hour. Really not that hard.

So at your best estimate, with conservative gaming (because come on, people are generally busy) it will take roughly 3 days to get a weapon for one mech.

Ls777, on March 18 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

IareDave, on March 18 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

Adhesive has to make money somehow.

Looks like they found it - and I approve.

This is a classic argument, and its dumb.

You wont make any money if your players feel like they are getting ripped off, and stop playing.
Its literally the more players you get the more money you will make. Why do you think tf2 is making ridiculous amounts of money, even though you get instant access to all classes and you randomly get free weapons without having to put much effort

IareDave, on March 18 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

You can earn 1000 credits by doing all the dailies, combined with the actual amount you make from the matches and you're looking at 1500-2000 credits. You can do that less than an hour. Really not that hard.

Thats if you can even do the daily. I spent like 2 hours the other day, just wanting to get my siege daily and missle attack daily. about 5-6 rounds each mode, stuck carrying the losing team.



As a new player, I will say that the reward system just isn't here for new players yet. You cant get cosmetics, you can't get new mechs, you can't get new weapons without hours of play. The game underneath is good and worth it, but new players don't know that yet.

Assuming you play only an hour a day, then yes it will take 3 days.

The more players you make - the more money you make. That's common sense. What you probably don't know is the staff for Adhesive is significantly smaller than the group developing tf2.

This game is more skill based than anything

Edited by IareDave, March 18 2014 - 03:11 PM.

[Zext]

They really should just add a means of selling things you've bought or making items not be per mech. Why they haven't yet is beyond me.

Not only is the grind not too great, but trying something out can -punish- players. You just spent the last week trying to get that sweet item just to find out you hate it, and you have to deal with that wasted week. There's not much more discouraging than wasted money.

[Ls777]

Quote

The more players you make - the more money you make. That's common sense.

Its common sense, yet developers seem to dwell on extracting as much money as possible from their current playerbase instead of focusing on attracting new players. Not that i'm neccesarily accusing adhesive of it

Quote

What you probably don't know is the staff for Adhesive is significantly smaller than the group developing tf2.

I looked up staff for adhesive, thats a good 20 people. Current indications are that only 5-6 people have been working on tf2, probably even less for quite a while now. Valve barely needs to do anything for tf2 any more, it has become self sustaining. The community literally creates tons of new cosmetics and maps, valve releases them and makes money, literal win win situation for everyone.
Hawken is in its early stages, so it cant sustain something like that yet. But it can if it drawns in enough players. That wont happen if the game is a grindfest.

Quote

This game is more skill based than anything

If this is in referral to me being unable to get my daily bonuses, you are mistaken. I often outscored everyone on the winning team, but it doesn't matter. One player a team does not make, so if the matchmaking system wants to fuzzy bunny you over, all you can do is bend over and take it

Luminescent, on March 18 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

I also think there needs to be something more when increasing pilot levels. While the current test drives do include items and internals I still feel they fail to let players properly "try before they buy".

Let me add my perspective on test drives as a new player.
I don't do them. Why_ because thats time wasted playing where I can't earn XP. And when theres a game with a grind, you always want to be earning XP - because its just creating a longer time you have to play before you can actually buy one.

Edited by Ls777, March 18 2014 - 03:39 PM.

[Leonhardt]

Null_Wing, on March 18 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

IareDave, on March 18 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

You can earn 1000 credits by doing all the dailies, combined with the actual amount you make from the matches and you're looking at 1500-2000 credits. You can do that less than an hour. Really not that hard.

So at your best estimate, with conservative gaming (because come on, people are generally busy) it will take roughly 3 days to get a weapon for one mech.

I have been in favor of offering all weapon unlocks on a mech after they are purchased. I think once you buy the mech you should have everything, but the internals and items.

Why_ Because some weapons just work better than others on some maps or are just straight better to use. Its enough to grind for a mech and items and internals, but being forced to use a crappy weapon like the incinerators baby primary just sucks.

[DaPheel]

I have recently started a smurf account, I lost patience trying to earn enough creds for a new mech, so I ended up just buying a few meteor credits. I didn't mind too. Much, but to a new player who wants to try a free to play game it may be discouraging.

I would at least advise bringing back the hc bonus for the lower level achievements. This will allow new players to buy a couple of mechs and get hooked, before they feel the need to spend hc/

[[HWK]Vanashinkaku]

Ls777, on March 18 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

I looked up staff for adhesive, thats a good 20 people. Current indications are that only 5-6 people have been working on tf2, probably even less for quite a while now. Valve barely needs to do anything for tf2 any more, it has become self sustaining. The community literally creates tons of new cosmetics and maps, valve releases them and makes money, literal win win situation for everyone.
Hawken is in its early stages, so it cant sustain something like that yet. But it can if it drawns in enough players. That wont happen if the game is a grindfest.

I can guarentee you over 50-100 Valve employees (art, level/design, engineering, network, production, etc...) still work on TF2, not counting outside of that (marketing, finance, analytics, etc...)

Even the player created content goes through a rigorous review  through several design / art members before being green lit (and most likely even reworked / edited) to make sure the content is of the quality their users come to expect.  

And that's with a self sustaining (mostly) finished game. (mostly as the game continues to grow with new maps, modes, contents, etc...)

[Phantasmo]

Leonhardt, on March 18 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

Null_Wing, on March 18 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

IareDave, on March 18 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

You can earn 1000 credits by doing all the dailies, combined with the actual amount you make from the matches and you're looking at 1500-2000 credits. You can do that less than an hour. Really not that hard.

So at your best estimate, with conservative gaming (because come on, people are generally busy) it will take roughly 3 days to get a weapon for one mech.

I have been in favor of offering all weapon unlocks on a mech after they are purchased. I think once you buy the mech you should have everything, but the internals and items.

Why_ Because some weapons just work better than others on some maps or are just straight better to use. Its enough to grind for a mech and items and internals, but being forced to use a crappy weapon like the incinerators baby primary just sucks.

I've been playing another F2P game for three months before coming here and in that game, "mechs" you buy come with all extras.

It doesn't really make sense to buy an incomplete product.


I think mechs you buy using MC should come with all weapons unlocked.

Edited by Phantasmo, March 18 2014 - 06:46 PM.

[Leonhardt]

Phantasmo, on March 18 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

I've been playing another F2P game for three months before coming here and in that game, "mechs" you buy come with all extras.

It doesn't really make sense to buy an incomplete product.


I think mechs you buy using MC should come with all weapons unlocked.

I was saying that regardless of buying it with HC or MC it should come with all primaries available. If that means increasing the price by a reasonable amount I am fine with it, but I wouldn't want to grind for a mech just to grind again in order to afford the weapon(s) I want to use.

[Ls777]

Quote

I can guarentee you over 50-100 Valve employees (art, level/design, engineering, network, production, etc...) still work on TF2, not counting outside of that (marketing, finance, analytics, etc...)

Even the player created content goes through a rigorous review  through several design / art members before being green lit (and most likely even reworked / edited) to make sure the content is of the quality their users come to expect.  

And that's with a self sustaining (mostly) finished game. (mostly as the game continues to grow with new maps, modes, contents, etc...)

http://www.pcgamer.c...ess-2-part-two/

This is an interview with robin walker, 3 years after the games release, he says there was only 10-12 people working on the game, stable. The update frequency has been rather constant since then afaik, so I see no reason that the number of people consistently working on it would have ballooned that much since then, and Ive heard that the number has gone down instead (no sources for that, rip). I mean, im sure much more people contribute tiny little things, but I doubt theres 30 people actively working on it, much less 50. If you know something I dont, let me know, and I know that for traditional companies this would probably be true, but valves wierd. As for rigorous reviews for community created content, eh. The community content is already reviewed by the community - the sheer amount of it ensures only the cream of the crop even makes it to valves eyes - and as far as I know valve hasnt reworked any of the community items. I doubt they go through that rigorous of anything - they are mostly just cosmetics. The hardest problem they have is probably just choosing which ones to add.

Are you really really familiar with TF2_ If you havent watched the videos where valve discusses f2p games and tf2s economy, do watch them. They are fascinating. Anyways, it wasn't my intention to compare staff numbers and team size, they are an unfair comparison anyways. TF2 has been out for way longer. My point was just that in my opinion, too much gameplay is locked out from newcomers behind grind, and thats bad for both the players and the developers.

This is of course the perspective of a newcomer - Ive been playing for approximately 24 hours. Thank you for responding to my first post, its nice to see a comment from a developer. Hawken is really a gem of a game and you guys have done great work with it, so its all with respect that I compain. I wll be definitely be buying cosmetics to support it. (hopefully when you guys come to your senses and they arent locked to one mech)

Edited by Ls777, March 18 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Silk_Sk, on March 18 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

I repeat, there is NO WAY WHATSOEVER for a veteran player to empathize with the grind new players are experiencing.

First off, that's completely wrong.

There no way we can completely experience what a new player goes through, but it's entirely possible for vets to empathize. Heck, even I can, and I think everybody here knows how poor I am at showing empathy.
One does not need the same experience to be able to empathize.

But as far as I can tell from your posts, you're opposed, almost violently so, to vets attempting to gain a better understanding through simulating a new user experience. Why_ What harm could it do_ At worst they maintain an opinion that the grind if still find, and at best they change opinions and oppose it due to their new experiences and increased empathy for the new players situations.

I don't understand. Vets can't have the same experience, so why bother trying at all_
That seems extremely pessimistic, and I can't understand the standpoint of not further educating oneself when there is something to be gained. It's irrational.

[Beefsweat]

Silk_Sk, on March 18 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

I repeat, there is NO WAY WHATSOEVER for a veteran player to empathize with the grind new players are experiencing.

I'm an alpha 1-era veteran and I completely empathize with new players experiencing the new grind, I for one am not sitting on hundreds of thousands of HC/haven't sunk hundreds of hours into the game.

[Zycat]

I thought the grinding was pretty easy compared to some MMOs. I think it's fine the way it is now. What I would add is let the player have a free mech of their choosing once upon reaching pilot level 10 or so, so new players aren't forced to play CR-T and trial mechs since everyone has a different playstyle that the CR-T may or may not fit.

[Phantasmo]

A way to test guns would be cool, or at least a way to see how they work before buying them.
Same goes for internals, items, etc.

[Maxmust]

Been playing for a week now and you gain credits pretty fast imo compared to other f2p games

[Bringer]

Well ive been playing a couple days now, and comparing this game to my experience with other similarly uh.. modeled i guess_ games such as WT, WoT, robocraft.. that one space game i cant remember its name.

I dont feel like the cash grind is too bad. That said ive done a lot of research and know what im wanting to buy ahead of time. Someone wanting to just mess around with all the internals and items would probably suffer horribly.

The thing that strikes me the most about this games overall model is how much more expensive the exp/money boosters are compared to similar games (such as those i mentioned up there). In most of these kinds of games you can get 'premium' for $10-15 a month. It would be double that to get a 30 day exp and credit booster in this game. That combined with the fact that i really dont feel like the game is that grindy (youre talking to someone who maxed multiple trees in WoT.. in beta, and then did it all over again at release) makes me not really attracted at all to spending real money on this game, as usualy i just buy premium and spend the monthly leftovers on cosmetic stuff.