50 replies to this topic

[Silk_Sk]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 18 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

Silk_Sk, on March 18 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

I repeat, there is NO WAY WHATSOEVER for a veteran player to empathize with the grind new players are experiencing.

First off, that's completely wrong.

There no way we can completely experience what a new player goes through, but it's entirely possible for vets to empathize. Heck, even I can, and I think everybody here knows how poor I am at showing empathy.
One does not need the same experience to be able to empathize.

But as far as I can tell from your posts, you're opposed, almost violently so, to vets attempting to gain a better understanding through simulating a new user experience. Why_ What harm could it do_ At worst they maintain an opinion that the grind if still find, and at best they change opinions and oppose it due to their new experiences and increased empathy for the new players situations.

I don't understand. Vets can't have the same experience, so why bother trying at all_
That seems extremely pessimistic, and I can't understand the standpoint of not further educating oneself when there is something to be gained. It's irrational.

You are confusing empathize with sympathize. We can sympathize with what they are feeling just fine, but not empathize. However, my main point is that, unlike balance and gameplay topics, our opinions in this matter as veterans should not be considered valid compared to that of new players. If the new players say the grind is too much, then they are 100% right regardless of whatever facts and numbers we respond with. You know who is among the new players_ Reviewers.

[DFTR]

Leonhardt, on March 18 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

Phantasmo, on March 18 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

I've been playing another F2P game for three months before coming here and in that game, "mechs" you buy come with all extras.

It doesn't really make sense to buy an incomplete product.


I think mechs you buy using MC should come with all weapons unlocked.

I was saying that regardless of buying it with HC or MC it should come with all primaries available. If that means increasing the price by a reasonable amount I am fine with it, but I wouldn't want to grind for a mech just to grind again in order to afford the weapon(s) I want to use.

Or give me the internals/items that the testdrive mechs come with_

[AsianJoyKiller]

Silk_Sk, on March 19 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

You are confusing empathize with sympathize. We can sympathize with what they are feeling just fine, but not empathize. However, my main point is that, unlike balance and gameplay topics, our opinions in this matter as veterans should not be considered valid compared to that of new players. If the new players say the grind is too much, then they are 100% right regardless of whatever facts and numbers we respond with. You know who is among the new players_ Reviewers.

I'm not confusing empathy with sympathy.
In fact, I sympathize with (ie: feel sorry for) new players because I empathize with them (ie: I have experienced and understand the distaste of a bad grind).

The opinions of veterans can be completely valid. The difference is, they may not carry as much weight and the circumstances of being a veteran player has to be taken into consideration. But status as a veteran does not magically make one's opinion invalid, especially if bolster with a rational argument.

Also, asserting that a new player is right, no matter what, also isn't true.
What if the person had the opinion "the grind is too much because you need to spend MC to upgrade"_
By your logic, if we bring up the fact that MC is not required to upgrade, it doesn't matter.
By your logic, the new player is still right, simply because they're a new player, not because they're using well reasoned logic.

Status isn't the be all end, end all of "being right", even when it comes to matters where one has to be in a specific state to fully experience matters.

I find you logic to be incredibly flawed, and despite the fact I believe the grind is too significant in Hawken, I can't agree with the way your arguing this, and I still don't understand why you seem to be opposed to veterans getting a better understanding of what the grind is like these days.

What harm comes from a better understanding_ Please answer that.

[Silk_Sk]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 19 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

Silk_Sk, on March 19 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

You are confusing empathize with sympathize. We can sympathize with what they are feeling just fine, but not empathize. However, my main point is that, unlike balance and gameplay topics, our opinions in this matter as veterans should not be considered valid compared to that of new players. If the new players say the grind is too much, then they are 100% right regardless of whatever facts and numbers we respond with. You know who is among the new players_ Reviewers.

I'm not confusing empathy with sympathy.
In fact, I sympathize with (ie: feel sorry for) new players because I empathize with them (ie: I have experienced and understand the distaste of a bad grind).

The opinions of veterans can be completely valid. The difference is, they may not carry as much weight and the circumstances of being a veteran player has to be taken into consideration. But status as a veteran does not magically make one's opinion invalid, especially if bolster with a rational argument.

Also, asserting that a new player is right, no matter what, also isn't true.
What if the person had the opinion "the grind is too much because you need to spend MC to upgrade"_
By your logic, if we bring up the fact that MC is not required to upgrade, it doesn't matter.
By your logic, the new player is still right, simply because they're a new player, not because they're using well reasoned logic.

Status isn't the be all end, end all of "being right", even when it comes to matters where one has to be in a specific state to fully experience matters.

I find you logic to be incredibly flawed, and despite the fact I believe the grind is too significant in Hawken, I can't agree with the way your arguing this, and I still don't understand why you seem to be opposed to veterans getting a better understanding of what the grind is like these days.

What harm comes from a better understanding_ Please answer that.

Nothing. I'm saying a better understanding is beyond us and any impression otherwise is an illusion. So rather than trying, we should stop running numbers and stats (like we do for game balance) and let the simple phrase "the grind is too much" stand alone without having to be scrutinized, debated, or even qualified by us.

I'll put this this way. For an incredibly long amount of time we struggled with the devs to get actual numbers out of them rather than vague statements like "vulcan damage slightly increased." Part of their argument for withholding numbers was that they wanted to balance based on how powerful the weapons "felt" as opposed to how strong they were in reality. I'm as happy as anyone that they've reversed their stance on the matter and are giving us pure data.

But for the grind, I think that spirit of how something "feels" should be the deciding factor. And how something feels differs greatly between experienced players and new pilots. This is why you get cries from new players asking for nerfs and buffs for weapons that are balanced just fine. In those matters, your judgement and mine should be weighed more than theirs, because we know the numbers and use them to support our arguments. They matter much more than how powerful the weapons feel and I'm glad the devs have come to see that. However, just because the stats and data approach works for game balance doesn't mean it will for everything else. In fact, running the numbers on the grind only confuses the issue. The only reliable data on it comes from brand new scrubs who just had their first match. Not from you, not from me, and not from math. I think it's our turn to back off and let the new players take the lead in this issue.

[Cleats]

Quote

Luminescent, on March 18 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

I also think there needs to be something more when increasing pilot levels. While the current test drives do include items and internals I still feel they fail to let players properly "try before they buy".

Let me add my perspective on test drives as a new player.
I don't do them. Why_ because thats time wasted playing where I can't earn XP. And when theres a game with a grind, you always want to be earning XP - because its just creating a longer time you have to play before you can actually buy one.

Many times, I find myself playing the objective and I don't have the appropriate loadout or mech to deal with the situation. As a result, I have to resort to using test drive mechs to accomodate. However, as Ls777 put it, I'm gaining absolutely nothing in terms of individual mech progression. I'm in this test drive mech purely because I feel it is needed just to get my 250 HC bonus. I'm sure more often than not, using a purchased mech and proceeding to lose will still yield more HC and EXP.

I've played my share of free MMORPGs, and I learned that players have to be very conservative when it comes to spending hard earned  game credits. I have to take into consideration which mechs can cover which scenarios, which ones can help me learn so I can ease into new mechs, which ones give me the most bang for my buck. Then, I have to answer all those questions for internals and items. On TOP of all that is the fact that anything you buy for one mech is bound to that mech alone.

I've started playing this game for about 2 weeks now. I'm nearing level 20 and I've got the Vanguard, Assault, and CRT. I've only bought internals for my Assault, but have not bought any additional items. I've only dropped about 6000 HC on the internals, about as much as an unlockable weapon for a mech. I think its gotten to the point where I have to spend strategically before I can find out what items/mechs suit me best before I can begin to have fun.

TL;DR

Hawken is fun to the new player, till he or she realizes they realize they made crappy purchases that they thought would be good but did not suit them. As a result, those who do not quit from hitting this grind wall must spend very carefully before being able to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Silk_Sk, on March 20 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

The only reliable data on it comes from brand new scrubs who just had their first match. Not from you, not from me, and not from math. I think it's our turn to back off and let the new players take the lead in this issue.

And there will be veterans who give their input regardless, be it with numbers or "feelings".

Why not encourage them to do so in an educated manner at least, instead of just essentially telling them they need to be quiet_
Especially, when, as you've agreed, no harm comes from it.

[Luminescent]

Cleats,
A system is already being worked on so that xp earned while playing test drives can be transferred to other mechs (and should be introduced soon), so I'm not actually concerned about that point you made.

I feel that even with the options provided by the test drives they still fail to allow for proper experimentation between items and internals (and they don't even allow players to test alternative weapons). If something like rent unlocks were implemented (as I detailed in my previous post) it would allow players to try different item/internal/weapon combinations without having to spend any money (although it would probably be a good idea to not only give them out with Pilot Levels, but also make them available to bulk buy like consumables/holo emotes). This would allow players to actually find something they truly enjoy then work towards it as opposed to the current system where they are mainly making guess buys. Also in the intermediary between saving for new items, etc players can still outfit their mechs with different things, adding a more diverse gameplay for new players.

Also a note to the devs, if players were able to try out different items/internals/weapons that are unlocked at a higher level and they really enjoy them, then they might be more inclined to pay MC to "unlock early"

Edited by Luminescent, March 20 2014 - 04:25 PM.

[Silk_Sk]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 20 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Silk_Sk, on March 20 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

The only reliable data on it comes from brand new scrubs who just had their first match. Not from you, not from me, and not from math. I think it's our turn to back off and let the new players take the lead in this issue.

And there will be veterans who give their input regardless, be it with numbers or "feelings".

Why not encourage them to do so in an educated manner at least, instead of just essentially telling them they need to be quiet_
Especially, when, as you've agreed, no harm comes from it.

I don't necessarily want them to be quiet. But awareness that their "educated" input may not necessarily helpful or valid is something they should keep in mind. But as ever, I'd still like to stress that this applies to the grind issue only. Educated input is absolutely what we should continue to contribute to all other topics.

Edited by Silk_Sk, March 20 2014 - 08:41 PM.

[deidarall]

The grind FEELS a bit unfair compared to the grind of the past. I am not sure if it is but you would pay for smaller things and it was be a small cut. Now due to the price of wep individually it FEELs more unfair.

[Zext]

deidarall, on March 20 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

The grind FEELS a bit unfair compared to the grind of the past. I am not sure if it is but you would pay for smaller things and it was be a small cut. Now due to the price of wep individually it FEELs more unfair.

It actually IS worse than what it used to be, you know.

[Muffintrumpet]

all I can tell you is that every single one of the six friends I've dragging into this game no longer play it and one of the top reasons they gave as to why was because of the grind and that if you make a poor 'early-days' choice - and as a truly new player the chances of doing that are extremely high because everything is unknown - you are stuck with it, or are forced back to square one, for a very, /very/ long time

the Hawken grind isn't all that bad when you have an idea of where you want to end up, but for genuinely new players who don't yet know what their prefered playstyle is Hawken has a cruel and punishing grind that _does_ put a lot of people off after they make their first poor HC purchase
(Hawken is littered with choices that are beyond the skill of a new player to make best use of, or are just generally downright bad options)
(Test drive mechs only alleviate this problem for frugal and patient players, but such players are generally in the minority)
if this was not a F2P game then those poor choices would probably be grudgingly chalked up to experience and the play would resume, but in the F2P market it's just too easy to say 'well that's sh_t', dump it, then move on to another F2P game

IMO the F2P model is one of the reasons why Hawken has such dreadful player retention