50 replies to this topic

[Silk_Sk]

I've been playing this game since Alpha 2 with a max break of maybe 3 months. I've seen every evolution of every aspect of the game and witnessed its effects. Almost without exception, every major change has initially been met with intense scorn followed by reserved acceptance when it is proved to be ultimately better for the game. From this year's Steam to last year's Invasion and Ascension, grand shifts have been made, resisted, endured, and adapted to. Time and again I have to admire the Devs' foresight and patience with the community (and, occasionally, vice versa). It takes great strength to make decisions that will almost certainly be controversial and to hold true to the big picture that shows they made the right choice.

This cycle has held true with one exception. The "re-balancing" of Hawken's economy.

I'll re-cap for those of you who either have not played for a year or just started. The Ascension patch greatly altered almost every aspect of Hawken, to the point that the old items and internals could no longer be in the game. Every player was refunded their Hawken credits for these items. For those like me with a complete garage of fully equipped mechs (and then some) this resulted in quite an amount. Additionally, at the time ALL service awards gave HC upon completion, not just the dailies.

Naturally, this resulted in a massive overabundance of HC for pretty much everyone, and drastic measures had to be taken. The devs decided to completely remove the HC bonus from most service awards as well as re-balance the accrual rate and prices. Other adjustments have been made since then, mostly resulting in increasing the grind. Even the bonuses granted by purchasing boosters was reduced (as well as their cost, to be fair). In the end, the grind is...well, not all that bad if you ask me. But, you know what_ fuzzy bunny what I or any other veteran player thinks about it. We already have almost everything we could want in the game. We're not actually experiencing the grind anymore. Our opinion on this matter weighs much less than that of new players. From the reviewers to the casual starters the cry is nearly unanimous. The grind is too much. Here's why the economy was better before it was re-balanced.

Service awards granting HC was a fantastic system. It was almost diabolical the way it could hook new players and make them comfortable in their riches before the initial surge of awards ran out, leaving them destitute but still addicted. I was able to introduce several friends to the game during this time and they were instantly and hopelessly hooked. They were able to coast on service awards just fine until they hit the grind wall, but the momentum they had encouraged them to overcome it and keep playing. These friends of mine are still playing and show no signs of stopping. But now_

Now, no one I introduce to the game plays it for very long. Sure, they think it's great fun. My heart never ceases to be warmed by their joyous outbursts of glee apropos of simple mechanical carnage. But they don't keep playing. They enjoy a few bouts and then stop, with no real desire to earn their way forward. Which is exactly what I said would happen. The cause for this rests squarely on the so called "moderate" grind.

I agree with many of the other veteran players as they repeatedly point out that the grind is actually not at all bad. It isn't. But if two competing restaurants are serving food for free, of course I'm going to go to the one that serves more food, even if the other one serves plenty.

But you know what_ Even if the grind was half or a third of what it is now, this would still be the case. Because the grind is visible from the start. Even increasing that pathetic HC cushion given to all new players wouldn't fix that. Ever since the removal of HC from service awards, the grind is there, naked, dangling its fruit in their faces, daring them to look past it to the see the goodies it's guarding. It doesn't matter how easy or hard the grind is. Increase it, decrease it, it won't change a thing. The fact that it is so shamelessly visible from the get-go is the problem.

In case I haven't been clear enough, the solution to this is to bring back the HC bonuses for service awards. I cannot stress enough how healthy this was for the game. It gave players a reason to keep playing, and eventually, start paying. It enrages me no end that the devs would eliminate such a perfect system. Under that system, a player starts out earning tons of HC from their mech, but it doesn't last. The service awards run out and they aren't earning as much as they used to. But its too late and they're hooked. Maybe they'll earn the occasional objective or kill award, but do you see the clever part here_ In order to earn more awards, they need to buy new mechs. Spending HC to make HC. And it's all FUN. It doesn't even feel that grindy since they're already playing.

Please devs, I entreat you. Bring back the HC service awards. Yes, you will be hated. Yes, players who already earned the awards will feel alienated. But as I've pointed out, this is nothing new for you and you know it. For the longevity of the game, this NEEDS to happen. Endure the rage like you always do. Maybe give everyone some bonus HC to soften the blow. But if you want people to get hooked on your game, you need more than just cool robots.

Edited by Silk_Sk, March 18 2014 - 02:10 PM.

[OdinTheWise]

but that is what the boosters are for

[WarlordZ]

They already brought back the HC rewards for some of the early service awards.  I'm not sure how much they're worth, but when it's done right, it's a great system for frontloading currency, ensuring that a new player can earn a decent selection of unlocks quickly before their earning rate tapers off.  By the time someone hits the grindy part, they should have enough options to keep the game from feeling stale.

Edited by WarlordZ, March 18 2014 - 11:11 AM.

[xXHadronCutterXx]

I agree fully with OP on this one.

[DFTR]

There's kind of a screwy balance to this new economy.  I have a dummy account and I've got upto level 11 and have 13000 hawken credits. Right now I'm playing out the test-drive mechs b/c they have internals/items.  So I'm saving up till I can buy a Scout and put on items/internals.  

Compared to Ascension there was much greater sense of unlocking things when you started.  After a few hours, I had 3 or 4 mechs to play with!  And it didn't seem to take that much time/energy to save credits for items/internals.  

Right now, it seems like the best thing to do is create 5 or 6 dummy accounts to focus on one mech in each one.  

I think for this game you want to make it addicting and let people get a taste before they feel they are "grinding".  If I'm level 11 and just have one mech in my garage, I'm not going to buy special camo when I don't even have a MK-2 item or weapon unlocked!

New players should have 3 or 4 mechs in garage and thinking about which costume or repair bot to buy not saving up for the internal or SMC for the CRT.

Edited by DFTR, March 18 2014 - 11:57 AM.

[Beefsweat]

OdinTheWise, on March 18 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

but that is what the boosters are for

Except the boosters aren't worth terribly much and you're throwing away money for every second that you're not playing the game because they're based on an actual timer rather than boosting say, a certain number of matches worth of accumulated XP. That's not super cool for someone who can't/doesn't want to spend entire days playing the game.

Edited by Beefsweat, March 18 2014 - 11:20 AM.

[ShadowGTR]

Beefsweat, on March 18 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

OdinTheWise, on March 18 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

but that is what the boosters are for

Except the boosters aren't worth terribly much and you're throwing away money for every second that you're not playing the game because they're based on an actual timer rather than boosting say, a certain number of matches worth of accumulated XP. That's not super cool for someone who can't/doesn't want to spend entire days playing the game.

I wish the boosters were handled similar to how Guild Wars 2 does theirs. When you use a booster, it only ticks down if you are playing the game. To compensate for this, the boosters usually only last about an hour. But this way, you are usually able to get more use out of them, and feel your purchase was worth it. In the end, you are more likely to purchase more boosters this way. If Hawken did their boosters like this, they would also avoid the "OMG, I purchased a booster and suddenly the servers are offline! My booster is wasting away! REFUND ME PLOX!" situations.

[Phantasmo]

From my noob point of view:
I can save for weapons or for items and internals. I just don't earn enough HC to buy all what I need.

Add to this that weapon's stats are somehow deceiving: many weapons don't feel at all like their description says.
It happened several time to me, you save for a weapon and it is not at all what you expected from the stats.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I recommend veteran players create new accounts so they can get a feel for the current economy before discussing this.

[IareDave]

Adhesive has to make money somehow.

Looks like they found it - and I approve.

[AsianJoyKiller]

IareDave, on March 18 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

Adhesive has to make money somehow.

Looks like they found it - and I approve.

They haven't maximized their ability to profit from other parts of the game, such as cosmetics. If you look at other free to play games, there are a number of methods available which are more profitable than making a game grindy.

So "they need to make money somehow" is not an legitimate excuse for making the game grindy, because it's not necessary for them to make money from that particular element.

[mccrorie]

I can understand this sentiment well. I wouldn't say I'm a veteran player, but I had already had a few mechs unlocked on release of the Steam version of Hawken.

The grind is agitating. I see this voiced in the chat all the time. I don't want to feel like I'm playing and playing and playing just because I want to get 6k+ HC to properly unlock the AR for the Berzerker because I already earned enough XP to finally get that opportunity. Seriously, that's like a slap in the face. There's too much to buy in this game and not enough HC and not enough time in the world for a person like myself who has IRL responsibilities.

They seriously want me to reach for my credit card so I can use a weapon I already have access to on other mechs_ Just, wow...

I think the exorbitant price for a simple colour change to a single mech says it all, really. Placing a premium on the most simplistic and uninspiring items is not going to inspire me to buy. Looking through the shop I never get the feeling "OMG I need to buy that accessory!". Instead I think "these guys are fuzzy bunny joking, right_"

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

I knew this was about to happen.  Being a player in Ascension at least game me a little boost in my creds.  However, the amount of creds needed just for a decent weapon, an internal, and an item is almost as much as a tier 2-3 mech!  This is insane!  We need more creds awarded from matches, bonuses; heck, maybe even change the daily win into a daily match reward.

[Krellus]

I think the grind is too heavy, and also agree with OP re awards.

Edited by Krellus, March 18 2014 - 01:15 PM.

[Nept]

Did Luminescent's Hawken "economy" guide ever get posted_  Would like to see some properly calculated numbers after that last disaster of a thread.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

Nept, on March 18 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

Did Luminescent's Hawken "economy" guide ever get posted_  Would like to see some properly calculated numbers after that last disaster of a thread.

It did, but it's on the Steam forums.

[Silk_Sk]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 18 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

I recommend veteran players create new accounts so they can get a feel for the current economy before discussing this.

No. It's impossible for us to even moderately simulate what newer players are experiencing. We already know what we want to buy. We don't have to try out different builds and different mechs because we already know what we want. Our experience with dummy accounts is with the minimum amount of grind that is possible. The kind of grind NO new player can experience without doing massive amounts of research.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Silk_Sk, on March 18 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on March 18 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

I recommend veteran players create new accounts so they can get a feel for the current economy before discussing this.

No. It's impossible for us to even moderately simulate what newer players are experiencing. We already know what we want to buy. We don't have to try out different builds and different mechs because we already know what we want. Our experience with dummy accounts is with the minimum amount of grind that is possible. The kind of grind NO new player can experience without doing massive amounts of research.

No_
I don't understand.

First off, you can simulate an increase in how long it takes by rolling dice to choose your internals/items etc. Assign a minimum amount of playtime with using things you don't like before "deciding" you don't like it (to simulate time it takes to decide you don't like it) and being able to pick another.

Besides, I said "get a feel for", not "know exactly what a new player goes through". Fact is the grind is fairly different than what many veteran players have experienced, and even if they go through an streamlined leveling experience, they at least have a more relevant baseline of reference, rather than trying to go on memories of an outdated system.

I'm sorry, but I just can't see why you would say "no".
Isn't it better if people have some sort of relevant experience rather than argue from the standpoint of complete ignorance_

[IareDave]

You can earn 1000 credits by doing all the dailies, combined with the actual amount you make from the matches and you're looking at 1500-2000 credits. You can do that less than an hour. Really not that hard.

[Null_Wing]

IareDave, on March 18 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

You can earn 1000 credits by doing all the dailies, combined with the actual amount you make from the matches and you're looking at 1500-2000 credits. You can do that less than an hour. Really not that hard.

So at your best estimate, with conservative gaming (because come on, people are generally busy) it will take roughly 3 days to get a weapon for one mech.