81 replies to this topic

[Snoof]

So i just loaded up HAWKEN's Beta build and immediately noticed that i am able to buy virtually everything with meteor points as well as hawken points. Now im no game designer but if there is one thing that i can tell from this is that if you keep it the way it is you (Meteor Entertainment) will lose a HUGE playerbase to the whole Pay 2 Win thing that you guys got going on there right now, i agree with "cosmetics" being sold for Meteor points but when you offer people to simply dump a whole bunch of cash and automatically achieve a certain edge over players who do not buy into it, well thats when you start pissing people off, we dont want another Tribes Ascend, Blacklight, pay 2 win model thank you very much, we want all the technical stuff to be acquirable ONLY thru means of progression, aka put some bloody effort into it soldier, while cosmetics can be purchased with real money by players who wish to enhance the look of their mech (notice i said look and not performance) or perhaps add a certain touch of "uniqueness" to add to their name, we dont want some wingy 10 yo kid with his parents' CC coming over, buying everything he needs and then go about crying at us because he still sucks at the game, i stopped playing SO many games that offered the p2w model because they get overflooded with children who yap about themselves all over the chat and whatnot, we play games because we enjoy them and NOT because we wanna listen to some WINGY FUZZY BUNNY CHILDREN!!!

Please dont make the same mistake so many before you have already made, keep the cosmetics for Meteor points and let players earn their bits n pieces on their own, this isnt a rant (well perhaps it is) this is merely a friendly business advice from a twitchy FPS gamer who hates children on comms.
P.S. I actually wrote fuzzy bunny there on my own because i know you would change anything profane to it

[SGRock]

Very well said.

I'm with him ^^

[Toryne]

Nothing i've seen is truly Pay to win from the Garage. Alot of things right away sure but Talent Trees as well as the actual experience tree granting access to the extra primary weapons seem to be accessed from actually leveling up said mech under the Upgrades tab. Honestly until we see more I wouldn't put too much into that.

[GunsnButter]

Pay 2 Win involves being able to buy something that cannot be naturally earned in game with time. The current system simply lets you spend real life money instead of having to grind out what you want.

I can tell you that the second the game actually launches I'm dropping about $20 - $50 on getting a fully decked out infiltrator, because that's just how I roll. Feel free to spend time grinding to the same point, because you can.

[deBoru]

I agree with this statement!

[Optimus_Lime]

from the beta vid mmobomb posted [http://www.mmobomb.c...osed-beta-keys], you can get anything with either hawken points or meteor points.

Hawken points are gathered through each battle while meteor is the point system which requires some form of actual money.
From what I am guessing you can work for the mechs or you can pay for them. Everyone has access to the exact same things the only difference is how they go about it.

Edited by Optimus_Lime, October 24 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[Snoof]

GunsnButter, on October 24 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

The current system simply lets you spend real life money instead of having to grind out what you want.

..... That IS the definition of Pay 2 Win dude, facepalmed pretty badly

[Ganelon]

Snoof, on October 24 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

GunsnButter, on October 24 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

The current system simply lets you spend real life money instead of having to grind out what you want.

..... That IS the definition of Pay 2 Win dude, facepalmed pretty badly

It's not.

[Die_Sandman]

I think we will have to see what is going to happen with the game. It hasn't been to a point where we can say it's Pay 2 Win or otherwise, until we get to the actual gametime. Once that comes around, I think we can then judge whether or not it is P2P.

[Gridian]

Snoof, on October 24 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

GunsnButter, on October 24 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

The current system simply lets you spend real life money instead of having to grind out what you want.

..... That IS the definition of Pay 2 Win dude, facepalmed pretty badly

Nope, sir.

Pay 2 win equals pay to get stuff a non-payer (a.k.a. free player) cannot get AND that gives the payer a measurable advantage over the non-payer.

In other words: Pay 2 win = pay to get better stuff, stronger weapons, better chassis and have an unfair advantage over the free players.

In here (just like most other upcoming F2P games, like MWO, FireFall, PS2, NWO (hopefully) etc. etc.) the payers simply "get there" a bit faster. Free players can get the same stuff, but instead of money they invest time.
Also: even the best stuff is useless if you do not know how to use it properly. As a medicore paying player I am used to being shot to very small pieces by experienced, good free players. *shrug* I am cool with that.

Shoot you,

Gridian

[[HWK]Deuy]

What Gridian said.  Pay 2 Win is giving players that pay money an unfair advantage over those who do not.  For example, an unbalanced gun that can only be bought and not earned any other way.

Getting stuff faster by paying shouldn't be a big deal because in Hawken skill is king (and teammates).  I think anyone that played the Alpha probably agrees.  If you can't beat a whiny kid who's mom bought him everything in Hawken, he's probably better than you at the game

[Ganelon]

As long as AG can keep proper balance, it's fine. Don't want another Tribes: Ascend laser rifle/gun/whatever it was disaster.

[Conquistador]

Will Hawken be implementing a TF2-esque random drop system_ Because that seemed to be Valve's solution around the pay2win argument, with random-spawning weapons becoming potentially available for all players... if you were lucky enough.

Hell, their newer guns weren't even balanced in the remotest sense of the word. But since they dropped randomly, I don't believe the pay2win argument came up very often. Randomly getting an imbalanced gun isn't exactly paying for it, after all.

Edited by Conquistador, October 24 2012 - 10:12 PM.

[KaszaWspraju]

Deuy, on October 24 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

  If you can't beat a whiny kid who's mom bought him everything in Hawken, he's probably better than you at the game

The greatest post ever.

Edited by KaszaWspraju, October 24 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[Phyrex]

im with gridian.
based on what we've seen, any sort of performance changers can be bought with hawken points while only aesthetic items are exclusive to meteor points. that look right to me.
also, the prices in hawken points seems reasonable unlike other game where its not P2W, but virtual currency is required in fubar amount to achieve anything.

in my book, this seems like a good business model. after all, a game of hawken's quality cant be 100% free

[Snoof]

Deuy, on October 24 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

What Gridian said.  Pay 2 Win is giving players that pay money an unfair advantage of those who do not.  For example, an unbalanced gun that can only be bought and not earned any other way.

Getting stuff faster by paying shouldn't be a big deal because in Hawken skill is king (and teammates).  I think anyone that played the Alpha probably agrees.  If you can't beat a whiny kid who's mom bought him everything in Hawken, he's probably better than you at the game

Like you said "Pay 2 Win is giving players that pay money an unfair advantage of those who do not" So if i entered the game at the start having spent no money on parts just to face off against a player who HAS paid for his parts wouldnt that be pay 2 win_ Naturally those parts will give him/her an advantage right_ Bit of contradiction there aye

[Mnemosy]

You're fighting an uphill battle here bud. No one agrees with you that this game is pay to win. Right off the bat as a new player you are given enough starting money to purchase and fully upgrade any mech. Play more, and you can buy the other mechs and upgrade those too. If you start the game "having spent no money on parts" then you should hop on over to the garage and spend the money you're given on parts.

If this game introduces mechs/weapons/upgrades that you can ONLY acquire with cash purchases it would be entering pay2win territory. If this game were an MMORPG with an economy where you can pour money into the game to get a real financial advantage, this would be pay2win. Hawken doesn't have an economy around it because it's not an MMORPG. All the in-game currency you gain is for you to purchase VARIETY, not advantages. What you're really paying for then when you spend real cash is just variety and not an advantage; thus not pay2win.

This is a shooter that is balanced from the start and gives you, from the get-go, an equal opportunity to fully equip yourself and get in the fray with everyone else-- paying players and long time players that refuse to spend a dime.

[Novacaptain]

Personally, I feel that very few games sucessfully manage to create a working free2play model. Battlefield heroes and Team Fortress 2 are two similar games that lie on either side of "fun".

The things that break the deal for me in BFHeroes are mainly the time-limited possession of items (unless you buy it with real cash), the levelling system and the single use items (that have to be bought with points/gold). There are certain elements of that game that just feel like cheating, no matter how they are done.

TF2 Is just a great game. With time you notice that even the "over powered" weapons in TF2 are balanced in some way, and you constantly keep switching loadouts/characters to adapt to the needs of the team in the current game that you are in. I think what makes TF2 great is that each player class is so highly specialized. The fact that you can either find or craft all the weapons/items (but that characters themselves are always the same) makes it very acceptable.

In my opinion BFHeroes is a pay2win game whereas TF2 is a more complete game on its own. The money I've spent on TF2 is more out of appreciation for Valve making a good game than trying to get an advantage over other players

Phyrex: you'd be surprised at the quality of software that can be 100% free.

[[HWK]Deuy]

Snoof, on October 24 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Like you said "Pay 2 Win is giving players that pay money an unfair advantage of those who do not" So if i entered the game at the start having spent no money on parts just to face off against a player who HAS paid for his parts wouldnt that be pay 2 win_ Naturally those parts will give him/her an advantage right_ Bit of contradiction there aye

I hear what you're saying, but for me the keyword here is "unfair".  

Do you consider someone who spent 2 weeks grinding to unlock items to have an "unfair" advantage over someone who just started the game and has nothing_  I don't, because the first person invested something (their time) into unlocking the items, and the new person has the potential to unlock the exact same things given the same investment.  

Similarly, I don't really think someone who invests a different way (with money) has any unfair advantage over the new person that has invested nothing at all.  They paid to get it faster, but what they got was the same thing a non-paying player can get, and the potential for any advantages are the same for all players across the board.

[Immie]

Deuy tellin' it how it is. People who think the system games like Hawken and Tribes: Ascend are using is pay 2 win have obviously never seen Nexon's free to play system, which very often allows paying users to buy more powerful versions of free items, or even items whose effects are completely unavailable to free players. As long as a free player can do with time what a paying player can do with money, it's fair.