81 replies to this topic

[FluxX]

Toryne, on October 24 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Nothing i've seen is truly Pay to win from the Garage. Alot of things right away sure but Talent Trees as well as the actual experience tree granting access to the extra primary weapons seem to be accessed from actually leveling up said mech under the Upgrades tab. Honestly until we see more I wouldn't put too much into that.

Yep. As long as it's not 3months + gameplay to get the normal content/mechs I'd be happy. Charge what is possible or what you like for cosmetics. Provide "XP boosters" etc. As long as they are not stat bonuses to paying customers only. Basically, either have a payment only game so everyone is level, or a free game with cosmetic payments, so everyone is level.

Actually, that's not too bad an idea. I'd have no worries about paid for matches where you get stat boosters, as long as they don't go up against F2P players. For example "double damage match" or "infinite boost match" of paying players, would add variety, be balanced and fair, and give a teir/level for those who do pay as a reward. Or even have a purchased item that grants everyone on a match a bonus. A bit like "call in carriers" would be a paid item, and would bring in carriers for both teams, so gameplay is still even. But such a cool event is only activatable by paying customers

Also, think of what other games do. They offer "match bonuses" that apply to all players in that match (paying or not) and cosmetic bonuses that only apply to paying customers. So, you could have "1 free cosmetic mech part for the winning player, if player is a paying customer". So it would encourage paying customers to, pay, and F2P customers would not loose out on the actual ability to play on an even field.

Edited by FluxX, October 25 2012 - 12:23 AM.

[Th4nis]

Yeah, I think the first argument doesn't stand as most parts are available to everyone and only cosmetic parts require real money. If you want to spend real monies on parts that would otherwise need a lot of time of play to get, then so be it. Devs need to earn their buck after all!

[Sueco]

OP doesn't understand what pay-to-win is. Consider the most successful F2P game to date, League of Legends. Everything can be bought for points won through matches, but players have the option to spend money to buy things right away. Hawken is the same. There is no advantage to be bought for money that can't be bought for points.

Doesn't this give an early advantage to players who want to buy things right away instead of grinding_ Yes, but that advantage disappears as non-paying players earn in-game points. Without it, it would just be a free game and there would be little reason for anyone to pay anything.

TL;DR Op is living in a fantasy world.

[Roundlay]

Pay-to-progress is not the same as pay-to-win.

The distinction here lies in the trade-off between catering to players that don’t have the time to invest in “the grind,” and to those people that don’t have much money (or aren't willing to spend any). Neither one of these business models affords players the option to purchase an advantage over their competitors, but neither is without its potential issues, either.

From a business perspective, allowing players to exchange money for progression is amazing! Everyone that would've abandoned the game for a lack of time or skill or effort is suddenly monetisable. From a gameplay perspective, it has the potential to devalue the game’s progression mechanics and the feeling of accomplishment that arises out of a long term investment with a game.

Fortunately, Hawken's leveling mechanics don't appear to be the interminable, kafka-esque, polygonal hell-spawn that some people are worried they might be; the game's core gameplay systems are fun in their own right. Always fun to kick a forum off with an ode to hyperbole, though! ... I think!

Edited by Roundlay, October 25 2012 - 01:44 AM.

[Gagzila]

Snoof, on October 24 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Like you said "Pay 2 Win is giving players that pay money an unfair advantage of those who do not" So if i entered the game at the start having spent no money on parts just to face off against a player who HAS paid for his parts wouldnt that be pay 2 win_ Naturally those parts will give him/her an advantage right_ Bit of contradiction there aye

So going off your logic, if a new player came in against a player that has earned better gear through time invested getting the XP to unlock them, the game is suddenly "Grind 2 Win"__

Ahem...

Hawken clearly isn't pay to win as many people have proven through well written and informed posts. Tribes Ascend also is not pay to win...I'll wipe the floor any day with the base weapons over someone brand new to the game that has decided to invest money and buy all the locked weapons straight up.

It comes down to skill in both games, some locked weapons may seem to give you an advantage but others will see its trade-offs and develop a strategy to exploit them and kill you.

If you come across a combination of weapons that trumps all (such as the tribes example made earlier in this thread), that is a balancing issue for the devs and has nothing to do with "Pay2Win".

End of the day, nothing is for free, the developers need to pay bills, pay employees, earn a living! If you read up on how Hawken came about, the devs obviously do it out of a passion for the game but this doesn't change the fact that it all costs a lot of $ and has to be paid for somehow.

http://www.edge-onli...y-fledged-game/

You can't fund a company solely from selling cosmetic upgrades

Cheers,

Gagzila

[Palessan]

For me, if i see a game that it is pay to win i simply don't play it.

On the other hand, if it is pay to look, i will play it and give money for it.
I have been playing League of Legends for 3 years and i can't get enough of it.
It would be wise to try to copy its pay-to model.

You don't only buys skins there, but you can buy new characters with real (RP) or game money (IP).
But having a new character is not an advantage since they keep balancing the characters weekly.
(It is an advantage in other ways like the people not knowing how to counter him ,and also they always seem to make him a bit stronger in the start )
If its not a character in Hawken, it can be a weapon option as long as that weapon  is not overpowered.


Plus you get to have win of the day +150 game money which is a real incentive for me to go back to play daily.

While the skills (runes) that give you advantage over others, these you can only buy with game money which you have to earn by playing the game.

Plus releasing new characters, and maps its a way to keep people interested.

[NYPD]

I think the term P2W is taken differently by many people. I personally feel that if you are paying to gain access to content that everyone has access to, there is no P2W involved. If you use the logic that gaining early access is P2W, you might as well say pre-ordering a game with a pre-order bonus that gives early access to certain things is P2W as well (is it_ I think not ). If you want to do things your way and grind for your glory, by all means do it. Just don't get offended/irritated by the fact that there is a way to circumvent the grinding process as not everyone is as eager to go through that grind as you are.

Just my opinion.

[FluxX]

I don't like "grind". I don't think any game should be based on that at all. Progression yes, grind, no. If the game progression offers a large and unreachable advantage, then the game probably shouldn't be competitive in the first place. If progression is balanced and kept competitive, it can be part of the game.

Things like "extra XP for beating a higher rank player" and "less XP for beating a lower rank player" helps. Why_ Well, anyone can gank new players, it's not like that requires skill. But surviving against the top player and winning_ That's a medal in most games.

[Maltheus]

One of the downsides to the pay system is likely to be most obvious on day one, when rich team A, decked out in the latest shizz within 5 minutes, takes on poor team B, desperately trying to improve their gear but getting blasted before they get a chance to do anything.

If the "latest shizz" is only "different shizz" (comparable but different weapons, different body layouts, paint, camo et al) but no more powerful, then cool.

If the "latest shizz" means more powerful weapons, or game helpers (armour, repair droids, radar jammers et al), either of which would give advantages (win or no), then I, like others on here, are likely to quickly get frustrated, call foul, and head elsewhere.

But I agree with some of the other voices, it's probably best to take a "wait and see" approach at this stage. When everything starts to kick off, I reckon it'll be pretty self-evident pretty quickly if there's an issue. I also think that it'll get sorted quickly if anything like that occurs.

Incidentally, I'm all for paying for visual customisation. The thought of having my very own, self-crafted, speciality mech gives me geekbumps. I mean goosebumps.

Maltheus out.

[Wadelma]

I like how the OP say Blacklight among the P2W games. Imo blacklight has a superb market system, better than what Tribes ascend is. No item there is P2W (BL) You can only pay for the heroes which are sometimes even worse than custom characters, like Grendel for example, they don't provide OP weapons as their default weapons most often suck. The custom weapons are better than the defaults, but you gotta pay for them with ingame currency, you can also get premade weapons for 20% of the price of a custom, even then custom weapons are cheap to buy. I've paid for the Grendel hero just to support them and will most likely pay for this game too if they release a badass skin I want to have instantly :/

As far as I can see Hawken is definitely not Pay to win, it is, as said, pay to progress. There is not much I can add to the statement that free players invest time instead of money and paying gamers invest money, both get the same items and everybody is happy. If you have a problem with everybody NOT being noob with you in the start, then play and get better to counter the better players. No reason to whine there.
I like this idea so very much that you can buy everything either with Hawken points or Meteor points, it's very fair in my opinion

[FreeLanzeR]

"Pay 2 Win is giving players that pay money an unfair advantage over those who do not..."

Deuy, on October 24 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

What Gridian said.  Pay 2 Win is giving players that pay money an unfair advantage over those who do not.  For example, an unbalanced gun that can only be bought and not earned any other way.

Getting stuff faster by paying shouldn't be a big deal because in Hawken skill is king (and teammates).  I think anyone that played the Alpha probably agrees.  If you can't beat a whiny kid who's mom bought him everything in Hawken, he's probably better than you at the game

Well said...

Edited by FreeLanzeR, October 25 2012 - 08:35 AM.

[Hipnox]

Immie, on October 24 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

.... As long as a free player can do with time what a paying player can do with money, it's fair.

..To a certain degree.

And now that you brought it up, i'll be using Nexon's Combat Arms as an example.

In CA, most weapons have level requirements. The best weapons (bar the G36 and a few others) have pretty high levels that require several days, weeks or even months of grinding.  The thing is that, NXcash weapons (Real cash weapons) have NO level requirement.
This means that a new player, with 0 matches played, can equip himself with the best equipment in the game, on day 1, as long as he is paying for it. Disregarding the fact that a lot of NXcash weapons are unavailable to Free players, Payed players can bypass weeks or months of tedius grinding with mediocre weapons an jump right in with top tier guns. This IS an unfair advantage, even with weapons available to free players.


As the time it takes to grind into a specific item increases, so does the feeling that the item is, for all intents and purposes, unavailable to free players.

The same thing "could" happen in Hawken, if the HP and MP prices get obscenely disproportionate. I'm not saying it does yet.

[Firesquid]

I'm seeing both sides here but let me be devils advocate.. How do you feel about some non-paying kid without a job who spends 12-14 hours a day playing this going head to head with some kid that just downloaded this and is playing with the weakest bot and weapons.. Kind of an unfair advantage with the headstart the veteran has over the n00b, don't ya think_ Don't ya think there should be a point that the tables are could be even across both plains_ Remember.. the newbie still needs to learn the controls and bindings.. still needs to learn the maps.. still needs to know what happens and how it all works out in the end. There is no big advantage to some n00b with good weapons. It just makes the learning curve a little easier to handle. Also, it appears that paying with money gives you no weapon that you cannot earn yourself... I see no problem there..

[Asuka]

I've seen lots of games start off like this and slowly over time, they turn into pay2win. Tribes Ascend is one of them. all i have to say is let's wait and see. if it turns pay 2 win then oh well time to go play one the many games i have on steam.

[Mnemosy]

Asuka, on October 25 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

I've seen lots of games start off like this and slowly over time, they turn into pay2win. Tribes Ascend is one of them. all i have to say is let's wait and see. if it turns pay 2 win then oh well time to go play one the many games i have on steam.

The developers have made it VERY clear that they know full well what makes a game pay2win and are steering clear of that design choice. That should be pretty evident by Deuy's comments in this thread.

[145154151164145]

Bottom line is, Devs made game and want to implement a money system.  While i'm not in total agreeance with these types of systems (im old school, sht should be earned not bought), i'm just gonna roll with it because arguing with someone else's creation and vision is ultimately pointless.  And in the end, sadly, cash is king.

[Dracoslayer16]

What's Pay to Win about this setup_ All of the weapon are balanced so allowing people to buy them with cash instead of time is just allowing people to be more types of mechs and weapons to work on.  If you see a guy with a Sabot rifle are you immediately gonna think "man that guy is only winning because he paid cash to get that gun"_

[Frenotx]

Immie, on October 24 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

Deuy tellin' it how it is. People who think the system games like Hawken and Tribes: Ascend are using is pay 2 win have obviously never seen Nexon's free to play system, which very often allows paying users to buy more powerful versions of free items, or even items whose effects are completely unavailable to free players. As long as a free player can do with time what a paying player can do with money, it's fair.

I agree mostly. Conceptually, yes. If the time investment required to progress get's too extreme though, it get's to the point where it's practically required to pay to progress. I'm not saying this game is at that point, I'm just saying that such a point exists. Iron Grip flirted with this line, once you started getting to higher levels. Shame, too- I really enjoyed that game.

[Nephtaline]

League of Legends is actually using the same system, you can pay with real money to unlock items and stuff faster, but you can unlock them with points you earn through the game.
And they have a huge success.

A bad F2P game would be Aion EU, you gotta pay 2 play. Clearly if you want to have access to all features.

Edited by Nephtaline, October 26 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[P4FJunkie]

After having played a lot of FPS titles out there. Blacklight Retribution, APB, Battlefield Play for Free, Tribes: Ascend, Combat Arms and many more. The "pay to win" thing doesn't even matter to me.

First of all, the feature brings in income to the company providing it, so the game can stay up and you can enjoy it.
   Second of all, from experience with games that has the function, there is an even balance of players who pay and players who don't. I play Battlefield Play4Free on servers that has new players coming in every day, paid or unpaid. Granted I have purchased everything I want for my engineer, there are still free players out there who have learned the mechanics of the game and have messed my world up.

Now when I compared BF:P4F to Combat Arms... In Combat Arms, guns usually cost between 15-30 dollars before upgrades. With about 100 bucks invested into Combat Arms, you can be an unstoppable force.
   Now back to BF:P4F, you can get a kit with a good gun and attachments that lasts forever for under 15 bucks. You can get paid more than that just to help a few elderly people take out their garbage in one day. Free players are given the option of grinding it out to get the credits to purchase temporary guns or permanent guns (granted it takes a long time). Once they have achieved the point of buying the perm. gun they like, they are then able to add attachments.

With that aside, free players have the same advantages of paid players (granted there are supply drops and daily draw's you can purchase with money) that only require a good bit of work. The deal is, though, once a person has mastered their weapon and combat tactics, do they really need to buy an item_ Sure the extra bonuses to reduce recoil and bullet drop at the fraction of the work required is nice - but it's ultimately up to the player to decide.

All paying does is makes the game a bit easier for the person with money to waste. I frankly don't have time to play for several hours a day to get my money to buy something - so if it comes to the point that I enjoy the game and don't have time to reach my goals, I won't worry about a few bucks being invested into it.

Just remember that I said a free player can achieve just as much. In example, when I played Combat Arms, there were a lot of players who had purchased the really overpowered kits, killing everybody. I got used to it and learned how to use my MP7 and kill them as well as hackers.

Edited by P4FJunkie, October 26 2012 - 03:31 PM.